Tamaskan CsW crossing
 

2 years ago Marcy did start a topic about CSV mixes in US: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...light=tamaskan

Here some quotes from that topic:


But today I did read on FB the TDR did approve a mix with a CsW: https://www.facebook.com/groups/398112493554209/

Tamaskan CsW crossing
 

2 years ago Marcy did start a topic about CSV mixes in US: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...light=tamaskan

Here some quotes from that topic:


But today I did read on FB the TDR did approve a mix with a CsW: https://www.facebook.com/groups/398112493554209/

this is not joke? who about this say a FCI in Holland?
she planed mate kaylee with others male in 2013 years.
very interesing who say a breeder. p.s. IF this animals group need a CSv - can used male - why mas CSV female born mix?

Zum kotzen :motz !!!

Broodfokker :evil: !!!

and yes - this is true. This litter mas born in next year. if want moore info - quest a breeder :evil:

I am no longer with the TDR for quit some time now.
But no matter how I am thinking maybe the best is ask the people them self why they made the decision.......

No matter how I think one thing I did learned over the last couple of years : You can all wright about things and have your opinion but you can never reed the personal book of someone else unless you ask to read a chapter ;)

I myself am part now of a Aatu tamaskan group that is also for outcross. I was against it for the temperament reason yes but they also have there arguments why they are pro. When talking without pointing and judging you can come to a point you do not have to agree but understand.
I do not know the arguments the TDR had but if they had the same as the TBA does I can understand it.....and that is why I say maybe start reading on the tamaskan forum or ask them

OK, but mix breeders will be removed from listing on wolfdog.org, at least.

And members of clubs with code of ethics that ban breed mixees should make sure not to associate or sell to, people who condone or participate in the breeding of crosses for public sale.

"Outcross litter planned in the Netherlands – early 2013

Kaylee, my 4 year old female Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, is planned to be mated to Tamaskan male Maguyuk.
She is expected to be in season between now and December.
This will be her first litter.
...
This mating has been approved by the TDR committee and my kennel,
van ‘t Aelse Sluske, has been registered with the TDR.

Kaylee is great with people of all ages and also gets along well with male dogs.
However like most Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs she doesn’t like dogs from the same gender.

Health results
Moonlight Kaylee van Goverwelle (Kaylee): FCI A, DM Carrier, Dwarfism Clear.
Blustag Red Rum (Maguyuk): FCI A, ED Clear, DM Clear, Dwarfism Clear, Eyes Clear.

Kaylee will add some new blood to the Tamaskan breed.
This will also be Maguyuk his first litter,
his parents are Tumanra and Banjo, and he was chosen primarily because of his bloodlines.
Hopefully this combination will produce some nice puppy’s with good temperaments and health.

If anyone is interested in a puppy from this mating then you can contact me: XXXX "

This is placed at the fb-page of the National Tamaskan Club of America.

-----

Can't believe people are involved or want to be involved in this kind of horrible practices. :cry:

Unbelieveble!!!!

It is amazing to see and hear that Kaylee van Goverwelle, as a puppy sold to Stephanie Korthout of the kennel van 't Aelse Sluske, will be used for this kind of mixes.

We are very sad about this and will have nothing to do with this.

Letty and Koos de Graaff
Kennel van Goverwelle

What are the legal consequences of such (mis)behaviour in the Netherlands?

Will the breeder be able to remain a member of the CSV Breed Club and National (FCI affiliated) Kennel Club after such mix pups are born?

@Rona: I really don’t know yet at this moment! :cry::shocked

Also the board of the Dutch club was today shocked about the news of this planned CsW mix crossing of a Dutch breeder.

The club also confirms that kennel van Goverwelle have nothing to do with this!
It is very sad kennel van 't Aelse Sluske also harms the name of kennel van Goverwelle with using a female of them for this mix (instead of using a CsW of the breeding line of her own).

Advertising so blatently that you are planning to do this is shocking! :cry:

I wonder if it would be possible to petition the FCI to bring in a ruling whereby any kennel proven to crossbreed is 'struck off' permanently? It needs to be FCI wide, not dependant on individual country breed clubs.

No wonder the Dutch club is surprised. Maybe Stephanie K. counts on the effect, i.e. that the Club members are so shocked, that they won't react :p

Shame on the breeder! But the FCI can stop this, no? They are breeding mixes and this is against the FCI rules...

nah.. it's just plain dumb...
Not so shocking when you know the breeder.. ;)

Sorry I dont see the issue.

A new breed in the making with open stud books needs new blood. They SHOULD use dogs with a known history. So health and temperament is easier to predict.

How do you think the CzW came about? Careful crossbreeding.

I only hope you're joking :twisted: Comparing that unfortunate amateur cross to a carefully designed several-year-long scientific project, where massive funding, conditions for hybrid training and selection + cooperation with dog trainers, top specialists in kynology, veterinary and biology, etc. were secured, in my opinion is a sign of ...ignorance.

No early hybrids in PS kennel in former Czechlovakia were let into private hands. Early experiments to let the CSVs live in private homes occured after a few generations of careful selection. Here the litter is advertised as any other. :twisted: How can you be so naive as to speak about new breed creation? :lol:

BTW Where are Stephanie's diplomas in genetic studies or veterinary or biology? Where is the team of people ready do train and test the pups, to make selection decisions and neuter the pups that do not meet the expectations? How much experience does Stephanie have in dog training or breeding? How many healthy, typical pups has she bred? Where are the exam results of her dogs and dogs carrying her kennel name? And last, but not least:
has Slovakian Kennel Club, the guardian of the breed, agreed to use a pure CSV in such "experiment"?

I'm not sure what the legal situation in the Nethereland is, but in Poland such kennel would be banned from the FCI National Kennel Club, the female used for unethical breeding would legally become a mongrel i.e. could not participate in dog shows, or be bred on in the future - i.e. her litters would not be registered. What's more - the female could never be re-registered in another FCI affiliated KC member's name in the future. In other words - even if the "experiment" failed, the breeder would lose forever a nice female for honest, ethical breeding. Very risky enterprise!:?

Not to mention that she would lose trust and credibility of decent and honest CSV breeders all over the world, which is really hard to be regained.

So what your saying is any breed that wasnt created by someone who is a scientist should not exist?

Im not saying that these things shouldnt be entered with extreme care. I think there is a huge amount of work that should be done before mating etc.

Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time.

I would rather have imput into what is happening, help guide the individual to the best options rather than see them sneak behind my back and use the worst combination and then quit half way through and leave a trail of cross breeds.

Secondly you realise that CzWs while being a fantastic example of how to go about creating a breed is still seen as "new" and more of a fad and designer dog by some in the dog community. That others think CzW breeders are "amateur". I bet people just love hearing that. Bet it makes light of all the hard work that has gone into this wonderful breed. Im sure its quite far from the truth. Untill I hear from this person in question myself I would not go around labelling them as anything. Again I would rather steer them in the right direction which you wont get the chance to do if you come across as aggressive.

They may lose registry to start with but would they not then later be registered as a foundation bitch/dog?

One more time I think you will not stop this happening. All breeds see it. The question is how will you as a community handle this? By insulting another breed? By throwing a tantrum? Or by sharing some of your wisdom?

Whether you like the breed or not they are trying to create it and from what I understand they have used CzWs before.

Also I think you are wrong that no early hybrids made their way into private hands, but I cant prove it at this time.

only tamaskan have falsh hystory ( wolf like dog without wolf blood, but they have sarlos, csv, american wolf mix and who know moore) no have any breeding plan ( only a couple people producing theys dog) any line, any breeding program. Sorry maybe you not like this, but I see this when a few hours sit and read all data basa in tamaskan web page. nice fairytalle, but not very believe in good results.
and yes I agree with Rona 10000%.

My students sometimes claim that there is nothing wrong in plagiarism, because others do it. Sorry, but such arguments do not appeal to me.

Personally I think that honest people should obey the rules of organisations and institutions, especially of those they volountarily belong to, whether this applies to dog breeding, or any other field.

I'm surprised, you have another opinion. :?

Who insulted which breed? :shock: I have nothing against any breed, nor against mixes or mongrels, only against people who thoughtlessly produce them without considering the far effects of their deeds:x.

This is exactly what I did. :roll: EOT

this part is the most important in this whole thing... only wolf looklike, no wolf blood!!! so what about creating a new breed or fresh blood??? fresh wolfblood for good look? you are creating mixes, that are not at all tamaskan breed. it should be only dogsg like NO or siberians, who look like wolves, but have NO WOLF BLOOD!

The news about mixing csv with a tamaskan are just so sad and dissapointing :cry:

being that the 'registry' approved this cross means that the dogs are currently simply mixed breeds to begin with.. not a breed, anyway.

This part is revealing the real motives.

A person in need of money.

Not a breeder, that has any noble intentions for the animal itself.

I am disgusted with the action and with the breeder.

Yes :cry: sad and dissapointing

a CzW male this kennel planned to use for this bitch is still too young this year.

so this year she plans to have a mixed litter and next year a purebred litter with the planned male. on another forum this kennel wrote something like, it's never too late to learn about a new breed. that's true - except 'tamaskan' is not a breed and anyway personally i think even if it were, learning about a new breed precludes an amateur to the breed from deciding to breed mixed ones.

like was previously said - just a commercial opportunity.

All my other feelings on this subject aside.......

They want the 'wolfy look' of the csv but not the temperament. ...... risky!!!! For them and for our breed :(

Even being a Finnish breed, wasn't tamaskan a breed selected mainly in UK?!
Sometimes I have the feeling that Tamaskan was made ALSO as a way to hide wolfblooded animals from specific rules that had put "wolfdogs" in "dangerous dog list".
I really dont see any sense in the existence of this so-to-say "breed" .

anyway, pointing to 'Jennie' or whomever as Blustag/Blufawn as the source of the inaccuracies/outright lies in the history of these dogs is a convenient 'fall guy', for sure, for the newly-chaired 'TDR', since several members repeated her same claims often enough. For example, why now does the 'TDR' admit that Oskari was indeed used? What changed? Has there been conclusive DNA evidence to refute the previous position? Oskari (Oxbow Leva Neve) has long since passed away, but for many years there was already word that he was the sire of several of the dogs imported from Finland.

And about temperament - the CzW temperament has long been criticized by this group. And now several claim they know the progeny of Oskari and other CzW mixes with temperaments they like, so according to this, not a reason not to cross them. My question - why breed something and hope you DON'T get the associated temperament? Why not breed FOR something you want instead?

And lastly, with the admitted inclusion of wolf's blood, what's the difference between this group of dogs and Saarloos?

From what I understand, they are trying to create a breed that looks like a wolf, but has the temperament of labrador. A dog for all the people who love wolves, but are not prepared to deal with one in their own house. A dog for all those unhappy/uninformed people who obtain a real wolfdog only to find he is NOT a poodle.

Right now they are at the stage of a wide range of crosses of saarloos, csw, husky, american wolfdog, malamute and whatnot. The temperaments differ accordingly. Those dogs are inbred already, there is no other option than outcrossing or letting yet another wolf-lookalike experiment fail.

There are CSWs mixed in northern sledding breeds already, but I don't see CSW breeders fainting in horror at the impurity of such mixing. Why? Because no one puts up notices of such matings on internet.

Seeing how many such experiments of creating a wolfy dog already happened, we should be glad that there is one underway which is open about the founding animals and shares information with the public. If they succeed in their goal, i suppose there won't be as many people willing to cross CSWs to create the mythical wolfdog without the wolf.

First of all, it has not been 'open', the breeder didnot inform the NVTW, the Dutch Czechsolovakian Wolfdog association, at which the breeder is registered. So 'open' is not that open.

Second, being 'open' doesn't mean being right, is it?

A criminal act in public, is still a criminal act, just to put it in perspective.

To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.

Even when you know ( and this breeder also know that) that these mating will not happen when there aren't enough people on the list for the pups?

Especially when the mating will only happen with enough people on the list. That confirms the commercial goal, doesn't it?

Not in my eyes. Because if it was a commercial goal( beside that in my opinion every nest is even from 1 that just had 1 in there life because no breeder give their pups away fro free ;) ) than you would have this nest no matter what
Than you do not care about if people are interested in an outcross pup or not. And than also you sell them as the same price as a tamaskan and not a reduced price because they are outcross and needs to be evaluated on an later age etc etc.
But of course it is just the way someone can look at it and all have the right of a different opinion....But when all is out in the open( so being done honestly and we all know that lots of people in every breed even do that) and they thought about what and how sorry than I can not see that the main goal is commercial but than I only think that I wish all breeders would think about that so no pup have to leave there nest when they are already months old or like some others have in their short lives different houses already because they where leftover form a litter so people just took them because they felt sorry But like I say just my opinion and you do not have to share that ;)

Miran,

Do you know this breeder? I do.

Lots of experiences, which I won't mention here.

Your comment about not giving away pups for free, as a statement as if each breeder is commercially driven, makes of course no sense at all. Thankfully there are breeders with the passion and love for the animals and the breed, who break even or even lose out some money and there are breeders, whose sole intention is to make money and use the breed for doing so.

I know who is in which category.

Last comment indeed make no sense on the subject but that is just my personal opinion about all breeding bad or good mixes or pure etc ;)
For other I send you a pm

Yes, Paula, I´ve the same feeling. Wolfdogs were banned in the U.K. So it seems that they mixed a bit and called their "wolf-a-like dogs without any wolfblood" Utonagan - a name without any advertising effect. After a little tour to Finland a new name was created: Tamaskan. Sounds better - grin.

If I understand Puma correctly I should answer with a Liza Minnelli-song :mrgreen:

from my info :) price for this or others mix are and biger like have pure CSV with FCI pedigree :)
and why you think not are breeder who thake away puppy free. I know a few breeders, I self thake away for very good owners few puppy free too :)
but not believe in free tamaskans from this litter :) or with price include vactination and pet pasport :twisted:

I see major problem with nomenclature, i.e. what the term "open" means. It used to be the opposite of "secret" but for some people here seems a synonyme of "noble" "honest" or "ethical".

If I said to any of you: "I openly admit that I plan to kidnap and kill your vlcak, becacuse I need its body for an important experiment", would you consider me honest or ethical? Would you excuse such doing or consider it noble? Well, you should, I was being open, unlike many who just steal dogs for such purposes.:(

If somebody who calls himself a breeder openly plans to take part in the process of breed destruction IMO isn't honest, but cynical (or just ignorant and greedy ;-)).

Whatever the end of the "Stephanie-gate" is, FCI and national KCs should definitely undertake more effective efforts in educating its members, so they would better understand the mission and goals of the organisation and the sense and goals of breeding as such.

.........:biggrina !!!

I can only say to this that litters registered by the TBA or TDR must have their vaccinations, passports, vet checkup, and DM test because one of the parents is a carrier.

this mas have all dogs puppy not important what a breed are :)
I speak about price :) I think they cost moore not this minimum price who mas pay breeder for vactination pet pasport and DM test :twisted:

I can only say that I must ask you witch price you have in mind.
Because of course it can be a way different price as a price for a CWD. why because they aren't CWD's
They will be registered as limited tamaskan outcross.
So yes they go for less than a full registered tamaskan

mix mas give from free :) in this case price is much biger like pure CSV :) (I interesing special in this - interesing from what need this to make, when can have normal CSV litter when Tamaskan are not breed and I not believe with this breeding plan and falsh mixing in oficial breed in future too. We all can make a club and breed rare super breed from dogs who found near ours house, but this not are a breed)

According the Dutch Tamaskan club the price is between € 1000 and € 1500 for a Tamaskan (not registered FCI breed) puppy : http://www.tamaskan-dog.nl/de-tamaskan/aanschaf

Tamaskan
 

The Tamaskan is not a breed of dog and never has been - it is simply the crossing of various northern breeds to produce a wolf-like dog!

The German tamaskanclub want nothing to do with it.
The German club are also not agree!!!

http://www.tamaskan-club.de/

Exactly, so why bother and make such a fuss about it.
At least we know what was crossed in (in that certain case...) which we didn't before and still don't know in most Tamaskan lines.
Not to mention the ridiculous denial of wolf genes in the Tamaskan.
Ok, the German club has a short note on his website that a Saarloos was bred in, but that was not all...
As they and most readers here do know.
It is doubtful enough creating a so called breed just for the looks.
If "wolfish" or not...

Michael

The fuss depends on whether this thread is about tamaskans or breeders' ethics. :? As long as the breed club & the kennel club of the 'breeder' and the CSV breed guardian - Slovakian Kennel Club have not formally agreed to such an "experiment" it is against the rules and against the CSV breed interest. :|
It is also against the mission and principles of breeding pedigree dogs, which members of cynological organizations undertook to obey and support when joining them!

I cant argue with the things being said in regard to regulations or the ethics of the breeder here as I just dont have that kind off information.

All I do know is what I have read on a tamaskan forum and I think they are making a lot better effort. DNA tests have been done and they seem to be trying to track as far as they can to get an understanding. I also read that they wanted to agree as a whole when to outcross for genetic diversity and for behavioural issues. They have a type in mind and are working towards that.

I dont see with this in mind if there is careful consideration and a cross done. Of course the breeder of the CzW would have to be involved and really for the sake of good feelings this breed club should be spoken with.

Its not an insult to the breed if someone seeks to use it in an ETHICAL manner.

If this person is really just another BYB as we call them well thats a whole different kettle of fish. I wonder how the Tamaskan breeders who are working hard feel about this person.

For the record I dont want a Tamaskan or any kind of cross of a CzW. Happy to wait for the real thing. I didnt win lotto so going to be a while yet :lol:

Some random web surfing, the Czechoslovakian Vlcak bitch in the original post Moonlight Kaylee van Goverwelle has indeed been covered by a mixed male dog.

http://vantaelsesluske.nl/index-t.php

And that this has been sanctioned by the 'Tamaskan Dog Register'.

You guys might be interested in knowing that the covering did not seem to take.
Kaylee did not conceive any puppies.

Thanks, Nino :)