Tail
 

Hello.

I have been in many "expos" here in Spain. Maybe 6 or 7 expos. And the last expo I have been, the judge said me that the tail must be down. In standard don't say anything about tail. It is true?

Thanks
--------------------------------
MOVEMENT
Harmonious, light footed, ground covering trot in which the limbs skim over the ground as closely as possible. Head and neck incline to the horizontal. Pacing when walking.

Oh yes, there is. The standard says:

"TAIL
Set on high, hanging straight down. When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape."

I suppose, your dog is showing himself with the tail raised up, when he sees other dogs? That is normal, if he gets excited, but not good for the judge. To be able to judge the lenght of tail and it´s setting, the judge logically wants the dog to carry his tail in normal position, ie hanging down. At least when the dog is standing in show position.

Was it this case, or you think the judge meant something else?

No, I think it is again the most common problem with the judges which never judged this breed in the coutry of origin and are not informed good enough (never read the standard? 8) ). I heard more times that judges in some countries judge CzW like collies and say "Tail carried up is a fault". :twisted:

Do you remember the champion classes in Czech Republic some years ago (when there were only dogs from Slovakian and Czech Republic)? Do you remeber the pround males carring their tails up to show their self-confidence. To present themself proud because they felt like CHAMPIONS...? ;)

Simply said: as written in the breed standard it is typical for CzW that "When dog is excited, [the tail is] generally raised up". At the same time the tail carried on the belly (by shy dogs) is a FAULT and I know judges which will write by such dogs the remark "wrong carried tail" (and it really has influence on the note).

But how it is judged by judges which have no idea about this breed and judge Wolfdogs like some "funny" shepherd dog breeds? The answer you can see by MANY italian judges. The same problem we saw by some judges in the West European countries - they think "Wolfdogs must be shy like wolves and they MUST have the tail on the belly". Such dogs have by them the biggest chances to win - most of the winners are just VERY shy wolfdogs. So such ignoramus judges choose shy dogs as winners, they make selection on unsure and unconfident dogs. And write by TYPICAL (stable, self-confident) Wolfdogs that their carry the tail wrong... :twisted:

One time I get GREAT prictures from Italian owners made on one of the dog shows. :twisted: By the females there were 3 bitches. The winner (and "excellent") was a female which was so scared that she was only lying on the ground while the judge tried do check her teeth. Second place and also "excelent" was a shy female which had her tail on the belly. The 3rd normal behaving female which was not even a little bit shy get the note "very good"... She was not "wolfish" (read: not shy) enough..... :twisted:

So Keeba, all you can do is to have always the breed standard with you and show the judges which say someting like this that they are wrong... It is really important because we know the chactacter of the wolfdogs is getting worser ans worser in some countries (from one side because the breeders breed shy dogs and from the other side: they breed shy dogs because ONLY shy dogs can win the dog shows in some countries...)

I agree with you totally!!
My dog got "good" by a swedish judge because he made a slight "growl" when touching his testicles...
When Oscar Dora touched his testicles, he made a similar small "growl", and oscar laughed and patted his head.
Often judges experience make the difference.

But sometimes dogs "overdo" it with the tail thing:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...lli_resize.jpg
:cheesy: :wink: :mrgreen:
by a very proud champion owner!!

We learned not to mind too much :? . Caya Zlatá Palz for example got the comment in Leipzig that she won her class even though she has a short tail :shock:
two years before in Dortmund the judge didn´t like her because her eyes are not dark enough :roll:

Ina

Yes, it is really "funny". I know many examples when dogs with great character get worser note because of the tail (best example was the "famous" judging by Mrs. Poduschka during the European Dog Show in Tulln :twisted: or the "very good" notes by Beau Issabeau :mrgreen:).
I know many disqualification by dogs which growled or were not calm enough. But STRONG character is not a fault by CzW. Maybe the owners should work more with the dogs but such dogs are still TYPICAL. :P
But on the same time I get really crazy when I see EXTREMLY shy dogs lying on the ground during judgement, which have the whole time the tail on the belly and are not able to stand properly even for a while. When I hear that the owners must gave their dogs calming drugs so the dogs are not scared and can be showed in the show ring. And how many of such dogs get worser notes during the judgement? How many of them get disqualification?

In the breed standard is written : SHYNESS is disqualification fault. So why so many "GREAT CHAMPIONS" are so shy? Why so many judges preffer UNTYPICAL Wolfdogs? It is really hard to read the breed standard before they start to judge a breed which they do not know? Expecially when we are talking about WORKING breed...

No - it this case it is really normal... When two males are walking one by one such tails are "a must"... ;) Such dog is saying: Look how great I'm. How good I'm looking. I'm really proud I'm so nice looking... :mrgreen: There is really nothing more piteous than a scared male showed in the champion class....

:mrgreen: We can make a separate topic with the "jokes" written on the cards... :P I have the card of Draco with the description from Berlin - everything what it typical for this breed was listed there as faults... :D "too long legs" :D "narrow chest" :D "fore feets turned out" :mrgreen:

special dog show in Lühringsen: Jugde´s comment over loudspeaker was "every dog in the show is wrongly angulated in its front feet" (I personally would have taken a look into the standart befor anouncing it loud)
The swedish judge that didn´t like the light eyes had the same problem, almost every dog was wrongly angulated in the front. :shock:

Ina

ehm....I could quote some examples but I would become unpolite...
not only in italy of course but also CZ and SK...Champions and studs...

ehm...they are brother and sister in couple class...
it would be impossible to have a male walking so near, unless he looks like a female!! :mrgreen:
massimo

You right. But there is ONE main difference 8) - noone is advertising shy dogs as PERFECT in CZ or SK. If there is an shy dog it get worser note or the judge says: "you must work more with your dog". Other people say: "You must socialize your dog better". Everyone will say it is not normal for this breed and it is nothing you can be proud of it...
But in many countries it the judges think it is great when the dog is scared. That it is WOLFISH and TYPICAL when CzW has the tail on his belly... Such dogs are called typical, the best and "perfect representatives of this breed".

I know... I was writing about champion classes... :) Not about the specific photo... :)

Hello,

Here is the second message, the other is unter the Bonitation in Italy wrong placed,

At our last Chapion Breeders Show, the judge wrote on his showrapport of one of the dogs, that the ears of that dog were too small.

So not even the eyes or the tail are wrong but even the ears are too small.

Greetings,

letty

And again a nice joke:

Last year my male dog did get on the Dutch club champion match a lot of "negative" notes. and the most funny one for me was: "to masculin head" :roll: :mrgreen: :D
Also on shows here in Holland not every judge did appreciate this masculin dog.

This year the same dog was on the Special dog show in Czech Republic and he did get 1 exelent/CAC in open class males :wink: :D

hi

i know this is one old post but ...

on the last show with furcas we said to me " he have on tail too hight

what do you think about that :

http://www2.bellapix.com/user/global...s/img_4665.jpg

is nice ? too hight ?

must I correct that?

on french most of the wolfdogs are just VERY shy wolfdogs. or not realy happy one exposition
for me a tail hight is the sign as one happy dog and perhaps dominating but but normal according to the standard.

about the standard it's nice but understand realy well its hard

i have read all berfore my post but not a lot off photos for explain all your comment

some judge prefer a tail down because they looks a best presentation on honnor ring. :mrgreen:

Do not correct it. A male dog who carries his tail like this, is happy self-confident, a bit dominant dog. If you will punish him for being happy and self-confident, he will never understand it.

If your goal is to visit many dog shows with him, you don´t want your dog to be upset, bored and unhappy there.

Screw the judges, most of them do not know what they are judging. What they preffer, is their own personal prefference and very often that prefference interferes with the standard or reasonable requirements.

Look at these male dogs in the last Club Dog show in Litomerice, CR.

http://lh3.google.com/image/Mirkawol...A/DSC_0037.jpg
http://lh4.google.com/image/Mirkawol...M/DSC_0040.jpg
http://lh6.google.com/image/Mirkawol...M/DSC_0051.jpg
http://lh4.google.com/image/Mirkawol...Q/DSC_0058.jpg

and the specialist of "tail high" - Oliver Passo del Lupo
http://lh4.google.com/image/Mirkawol...o/DSC_0048.jpg

You can see, that it is absolutely normal for a male dog to carry his tail up, when the dog is running (with Oliver, even when he´s walking :D ). And the Slovakian judge, Sona Bognarova, did not have any problem with that. Because she also KNOWS this is normal.
So "tail too high" is complete nonsense, created by judges who do not know anything about the breed.

I see the photos are not showing properly, so I put only links to them. Hopefully that will work.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Mirkawol...59224053570274
http://picasaweb.google.com/Mirkawol...59262708275970
http://picasaweb.google.com/Mirkawol...26060952395810
http://picasaweb.google.com/Mirkawol...26138261807218
http://picasaweb.google.com/Mirkawol...26000822853618

A wolf with tail under I think is a shy wolf, so I prefer a proud wolf than a coward wolf.

If the judge sais that tail would be under ( I think the standard does not say this...), and the judge give the first position a wolf with the tail under, I think is not correct option... but I always be proud of my wolf.

Sorry about my english

yes
i 'm agree with you yesterday he was in show ...... yes......again ;)

and alway the tail so hight ;)

The judges do not like the tails carried over the back because they are used to breeds like collies, and similar... ;)

But it is typical for CzW - in the origin countries in the champion class or working class you will see (usually 8)) only dogs with the tails up - this way the dogs are showing they are selfconfident, strong and not shy...
But to be honest in the moist countries the judges do know know the breed standard and they saw it is a fault. Sometimes they even preffer scared CzW with weak character...

But back to the tail:
there is only ONE wrong position of the tail - if the tail is on the belly (if the dog is scared). I saw already that in Czech Republic Czech judge gave such dog description "Wrong carried tail" and worser note... No wonder: tail on the belly means shy character -> untypical character for a Czechoslowakian Wolfdog...

For example a CsW in a show ring like this one?

http://www.de-ursidae-stee.com/wolfd...Ws/showdog.jpg

hi just one question

about traduce about
the standard :

TAIL Set on high, hanging straight down. When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape.


for you what is shape

the first faucille :http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...0/faucille.gif

or sabre :http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...bre%252005.jpg

because we have on post about the tail

tank's for all answer

This is sickle - so that´s the correct way of carrying tail when the dog is excited.


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...0/faucille.gif

I´ve found image of "excited" dog on dog show, carrying its tail in the classical "sickle" shape. Here it is:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l7...f/DSC_0040.jpg

The male dog on the photo is Brave Odin z Verne smecky, photographed
on Club Dog show in Litomerice, Czech Republic.

tail /like husky position???????????????????
 

hi all .... y m not a juge( and yu too) BUT y say a litlle reserve when yu say tail necessary up like "nordik dog"(because some of yur pics show that sorry ) ....in fact yes it will be up (to show good caracther/exiting /etc ....no problem y m 100%agree(some pics from mirka are ok ) )but not like an husky or malamute(tex's pics ) ...... if yu don 't see difference beetween a dog who have a tail up like a dominant wolf but like a nordik:::::::: it' s a shame! .... personaly y think :if tail is to arround on her it 's a default ...good position it will be up when dog is on movment but not "turn arround "...do yu feel diffence or not ?.... don 't forget that our dogs had wolf origine and not nordik dog on their blood !!!!y NEVER SEE A WOLF LIKE AN HUSKY TAIL!!!!.... please don' t forget the difference .... and don 't say on this forum what it is YUR arrangments ....thank yu so mutch ...best regards ....furyos ...

Well, nordic, wich one?
Huskies and malamute have a completly different standard when we talk about tail.
Huskies tail must seems a fox tail, at movement must be ported up without touch the back, is preferenceable that it make a pretty curve in sickle format.
Husky tail must be quickly down at backline
Malamute's tail must be on the back at stay but cannot be curlied, must be on the line of the back.
Czechoslovakian wolfdog tail must have high insertion when the dog is axited the tail can be ported at sickle shape (as in the Mirka photo)


Because difficultly you will see a wolf or a high content wolfdog on the street or dogshows walking pretty like a sociabilized dog, with so good behaviour for walk showing the tail up relax at point to be in sickle full of movement.

Tail is one way for the dog and wolf express his felligs, one way for they talk, so, principally in wolves and wolfdogs the tail format can seems pretty different dog by dog at dogshows because it will depend directly of the behaviour, sociabilization and character of the dog.

One wolfdog.org you can find some photos of wolves, so, one of then show you a sickle tail, that will continue on sickle if this wolf have a pretty dominant character and have no concurrency, is only you look on the deep of the photo.
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2003/2/7622.jpg

Yes, the tails in sickle only isn't up, and some tails in sickle you can find serching on the photos, but they will be difficultly up like a good behavioured wolfdog on dogshows.

hi nebulosa .... how are yu? very well y hope ?pics yu show me prove exactly what y want explain ...if dog is quiet :tail down.(like first wolf on pics)..but if dog is in action or in exiting :tail up like yur picture(second wolf on) ...but last picture from mirka and tex show exactly a bad position like a nordic dog ...sorry .... it 's too curl on the end and not straight enougth ...do yu see a pure german shepherd or a pure wolf like this???? sorry for me NEVER!!!!!!!!!!! for me this point will be important for the future selection /mariage and try to help to disapear that in future selection and mariage too ... genetic is not an easy science ...but we can try and work to help to disapear that ......HO SORRY !!! y forget ..yu are a friend from fabrice (french moderator) sorry if yu don' t like when y post reply about his dog ...but it s not he' is dog the problem(furcas have a lot of qualities) ..BUT it s the position about ALL TAILS like that ...yu feel and see the difference ? his pics posted is just an exemple to show the problem on image .... that 's all !!!..don t feel any agression or problem on mrs nebulosa ..it s my opinion and y think y can have one ...not ? best regards... furyos ...

form of tail ..not only position ...
 

hi....it s me again ...y look a lot of pictures and talk just now with some juges on phone(sorry y don 't give their name).... the problem for me (and them )it' s not tail up or down but the form of her when it s up ...curl on it 's a fault .... if it 's up and straight or little curl ok ...but if the curl is too mutch and go left or right side on the back ...this is a real big problem .... some nordik have this position and form of tail .... y hope yu understand this point of vue ...regards ..furyos

No, the tail of the second wolf isn't up, if be up will be on sickle like on the photos of Mirka.

No, the picture of Mirka show a dog with very good character.
Yes you can find pure wolfs with the tail on sickle like you can find GSD working line with tail on sickle when exicted, principally on working trials, is only you have more convivence with these two animals and you will see.

Even if I appear with a CzW with curlied tail, this won't be a serious problems when the breed need better selection in more important parts, every experienced judge that judge a specialized dog show will give winner for a dog with excelent structure and behaviour even if this dog have an not wiched tail port, that isn't the case of sickle tail.
For me the behaviour of the dog is pretty important for selection, tail in up sickle at dogshows or public locals when walk, tail down right at normal position when relax ( maybe with the set up), for a wolfdog is a proof of good character.

and so?
I really see no problems on Furcas tail, and I tough nobody see a problem in this, because this problem you talk not exist on he or Odin.

All tails like that means normally a dog full of self thrust, that is pretty searched in the breed of any dog principally when we talk about dogshow, because dogs like that have something that we call "star" inside, they show as who think that're the best ones, that is the star, some experienced handlers say that the "star" isn't possible to be selected, that like with humans, some dogs born with the star, some not, is more a lucky question, you can have a very good behavoured dog without this, I still believe it's a lucky question. ;-)

Yes curl tail is a fault, but have someone see a CzW with curl tail?! if yes have photos?
an exemple of a silly curl tail.
http://xn--jmthund-5wa.com/jamthund.jpg

more strong curly

http://www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet.../basenji32.jpg

I not imagine a CzW with a curly tail because the tail inserction and the bones it not reach for be curlied.

hi again nebulosa ...if yu think that it s YUR IDEA nebulosa if yu like yur idea no problem for me ......y respect it ...BUT NOT MINE ....for me yu are not open enougth in yur judgment and think just what yu want or feel on wolfdog ...like "anthropomorphism"....but selection it s not just lucky storie ... or little star on .... FOR ME : if y have one dog with this problem y NEVER try to have pupps with ..that 's all ... y don' t want see that in the future ...this is my idea ... respect it ...that s all ...best regards ...furyos

Isn't a question for ideas, we are talking about one dog breed with definited standard that MUST be respected.
Isn't something "I like dogs with tail on the belly because that I will select dogs like that because this is wolfish", if for you sickle tail is one problem, ok, but isn't for the standard that means that, simply like that, if you not like, ok, we respect it, but not try to put your taste as standard for the breed.
only that.

nebulosa !!! please !!!it s a joke or yu loose yur mind??? why not choose a chihuaha to illustrate this problem..... y think yu loose yur serious ..... when y speak about curl it's in the end on tail ...like a nordik ...if a lot of wolfdog have this "caracteristic "genetik ..yes we can imagine that a lot of mariage we can have yur last pictures ...god preserve us !!!!!!! this is for that it s necessary to STOP IT IMMEDIATLY ...mutation and genetik ...YU KNOW ? ;;;;in 10 or 20years if nobody note this ..YES IT WILL BE TOO LATE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!good idea in fact yur last pictures ..this extrem idea show a real problem in future !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks nebulosa ...thanks ....regards ...f

:shock::shock:

Did I get you right?

nebulosa ...standart is not straight enougth ..y know and a lot of people know that (50 years old)..... we need a better ligth on this sort of problem ..like long hair coat /black mask ...ect ... please y 'm not stupid enougth to think that y m or became of origin of a new standart ...but y try to respect it ...and on standart the reference is wolf and not nordik dog ..OK? that's all ...

God, you need quickly studie structure and dinamic of dogs or you won't be able to breed properlly. :shock:

if y say that nebulosa it 's because a tail with this problem can became on genetik present ..... that 's all and y don 't wait yu to breed dog ...sorry .... what studie yu have in genetik? y have a good friend in "maison alfort vetenary university."and y study with french teachers's SCC for my french certificate breeder .and my discussion about some problems we meet in some dogs(mask/long hair /tail curl) with them prove exactly that if nobody note that in a "cheptel "we can have realy this caracteristic on blood line ..... but y forget sorry yu are a big professor in yur country and french genetik professors are so stupid for yu ...to stop a genetik problem ? don t try a marriage with a risk inside .... that s all ......regards .... f

an other question ...do yu ever see in real furcas ? ..... y m not alone in france to note this problem ..... sorry ....

I no need titles or names for proof my knowledge Furyous.
I think even with all these contacts lack for you experience, principally when we talk about CzW case, a breed with few bloodlines, you're talking in take out of reproduction a beauty dog with good character because his tail for you taste isn't good.

If you be more experienced in judge dogs you will see that I no need touch Furcas for judge his tail when I have see some videos with he in dogshows, in the nature, playing and photos of he.
But is pretty common make this confusion when you have a dog wich show with a relax up sickle tail when you not know what points you need judge for judge the tail position and here, we talk even about the crupper and back limbs angulation.
We are talking about dog anatomy and really a dog with the structure of Furcas will never have a curly tail naturally, maybe if the tail was broken that isn't the case.

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/9/...232-284195.jpg
http://lh6.google.fr/texwolf33/R0bha...jpg?imgmax=512
http://lh6.google.fr/texwolf33/R0bhb...jpg?imgmax=512

http://lh3.google.fr/texwolf33/R8NDy...jpg?imgmax=512



http://lh6.google.fr/texwolf33/R0bhT...jpg?imgmax=512





http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/3/...10-9696819.jpg

hi here is many photos about furcas and other dog

in fact it depend the caracter as one dog the level affirmed about dominance

in fact for me speak about furcas it's only to have explain about traduce
furyos( merlin ..franck .etc .... as you want .....) you ask as nebulosa if she have see furcas but you ............ you have see only one furcas you can't realy speak ;)

now with photos you can speak

furcas have the tail realy on the parallele as the back not on the left not at the right and don't touch the back ;)

for me the more important furcas don't agress the judge on showor are shy : the tail isn't realy important in fact it's only on information about the level as the dog in the hierarchy and furcas have one realy big caractere
BUT I wait other people as know the standard i didn't say " i have reason "

i just want to learn that's all
i don't speak esencialy about furcas's tail but about the standard

in fact we must speak about standard !
TAIL Set on high, hanging straight down. When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape.

without agressivity just speak and explain why we said those we think about it

Attachment 404...............hey this is the real pb for for a bad position tail............but furcas is whithout tha areal real nice dog.........

More two photos of sickle shape.
And as I told, when relax and up, can leave us to a mistake.
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/3/...05-3377819.jpg

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/7/...92-9184697.jpg

ok nebulosa if yu like this type it s yur opinion but for me it s not typical good expression.....sorry a lot of bad pics it s not a proove..........yu can show me all pictures of the world with bad tail y don' t change my idea...........but just proove one things it s very important to note this problem......... not best position.........y wait other opinion from other judges in slovakia.........y send some mail in this way to know more exactly ...........best regards........

That's the question Furyos, none of the dogs I show the pictures have problems in the tail, but, at the moment of the photo they're excited.
Iowa Eden Severu was A63 Of P1 at bonitation if she had problems as curly tail will appear "Wrong position" at bonitation, wont? Jaberwock z Peronówki has one Very Promossing with Slovakian judge Oskar Dora as was the best puppy with Bozena Ovesna from Czech, he probably won't receive it if have an atipical tail.
You cannot judge the tail without know how do it, some people made the same error as you're doing now.
You may look at the basis of the tail, so you can judge the longer of the bones first, after for the isquian bone position and you will be able to judge the port of the tail for arrive the conclusion, the set, principally for dogs with long tail full of movement means nothing for judge the tail position.
I think i'm wasting my time with you, but i'm sure it will help some people that wans learn more about how judge tails properlly for arrive to his own conclusion.

yes y think yu loose yur time with me because yu couldn t proove yur theories just with this arguments...........a lot of pupp can have best pupp in dog show and with pb of tail .....it s not a prove ...... best regards and good "reflections" ............f.(and good night)

http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/35...600x600Q85.jpg
SK, LT club junior winner, BALT junior chempion

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/9/...62-5445812.jpg
club winner'07

http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/40...600x600Q85.jpg
club winner, Lithuanian winner, multi CAC, BOB

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/37...600x600Q85.jpg
World winner'06, Multi CH, Multi winner, Multi CAC, CACIB, BOB

http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/40...600x600Q85.jpg
World winner'06, Multi CH, Multi winner, Multi CAC, CACIB, BOB & SK, LT club junior winner, BALT junior chempion

http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/81...600x600Q85.jpg

SK, LT club junior winner, BALT junior chempion & club winner, Lithuanian winner multi CAC, BOB


this dogs i have see in latest CACIB dog show in Lithuania, this dogs is from Czech, Poland and Lithuanian. Hes have great charakter, and ALL judge say - "exelent temperament, moveming and character".

when i see dogs with tail in down position- (bell position) this dogs not like, me when more % hes have not good charakter.


p.s. to furyos - i am FCI judge :) and wolfdog expert, not allraunder judge :)

Thank you, Paula and Wolfin, but furyos does not want to understand - because of his battle against Furcas z Peronowski 8)

If you have a look at the owned dogs it seems 4 or 5 French breeders are extremely under "Hungarian influence" ;-) at the moment, and some of them prefer dog shows in France, Switzerland and Holland more than in the countries of origin.

cheers
Angelika

hi wolfin.......YHANKS FOR YUR PICS ;;;NO PROBLEM FOR THEM ;;;Y UNDERSTAND AND AGREE ABOUT THIS POSITION ;;;; BUT NOT WHEN IT S CURL IN THE END ......... SOME YU SEND ARE 100% OK ;;.. DON 'T WORRY ....Y KNOW YU ARE JUDGE5WE EVER TALK LAST YEAR° BUT THE DOG WHO Y SEND PICS5FURCAS ° DON T HAVE EXACTLY THIS POSITION ;;;IT S CURL ;;;; DO YU UNDERSTAND WHAT Y WANT EXPLAIN? Y RESPECT COUNTRY FROM ORIGIN OF OUR BREED ........ AND IT S FOR THAT Y TALK ABOUT BECAREFULL WHEN WE HAVE NORDIK TAIL ON RING ....THAT4S ALL ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;FOR ANGELIKA : YES FRANCH LIKE HUNGRIA WOLFDOG /POLSKI/ ITALIAN/SLOVAK/ TCHEK/BELGIUM/ RTC ETC ;;;; WHY YU TRY TO DISCREDITE HUNGRIA DOGS? JALOUS????????????????Y DON T UNDERSTAND YUR REACTION IF AS SOON AS WE TALK ABOUT A DEFAULT YU DICREDITE ONE KENNEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RESPECT IS NOT YUR NATURE?FOR ME Y FIND GOOD THINGS IN DIFFERENT BLOOD LINE IN ALL COUNTRIES ........... DON T TRY ANY POLITIK MANIPULATION TO HAVE RESPECT FROM ORIGIN COUNTRY ;;;;;;;;;;; Y CAN UNDERSTAND YUR VOLONTY TO DO THAT IF YU NEED SOMETHING ABOUT THEM ;;;;; POWER PERHAPS OR WHAT????? BEST REGARDS ANGELIKA ..........

I thoug you will note this detail

http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/40...600x600Q85.jpg

because there the tail is exactly like Furca's Tail on some photos.
Nordic tail on the ring, where? all CzW tails on the fotos have long caudal basis bones as they have a relactive long isquian, so, cannot be curlied.
You need quickly studie dogs dinamic and morfology for be able to judge properlly even the work you're done.
Why are you screaming?! Cap's look on internet lenguage means screaming isn't polite way to write and can sound's agressive for who read. ;-)
Nobody try do a "politic manipulation" we are not talking about politic as nobody told that lack respect with the origin countries, what she write is truth, you have a very personal war against Furcas as someone can read on french forum, you no need hide it, it's public already.

hmm i think very good litter with EXELENT character have in France Eligo and Geryon litter, i not kann what character have Eligo girls, but Geryons girl is demo version - super working and REAL wolfdog character. maybe this dogs help to beter from alls dogs with character problems :)

in photo cann see whe like dogs in dogs show, and..... i not see hapy dogs :) and when not see hapy i think (yes only think in this situacion) hes not have very strongs characters :)

and about this situation thake very big information....workings diploms, in French or holand or hungary IS working exams and good treners (i know personaly people from this coutry- dog trainers) but..... whe big % wolfdogs have exams? only BH, only IPO B? only OB? hmmmm?

the best is for this coutry have normal bonitation whit good character test and breed only good dogs with good temperament - and in this case not you have latter diskusion about tail problems :rock_3.
now breeding with dogs show rezults and only HD rezults (or breed with not HD results) is .... not good breeding work - this is "fast breeding biznes"

and p.s. latest photo with 2 dogs : is WW harmonia edens severu and.... Geryon z Peronowki with UP tail positions :)

Maybe if you would use the classical whole sentence sheme and wouldn´t mix up comments to the breed with sarcastical attacks on people that don´t share your opinion, your postings would make more sense and people would care more about their content.

Ina

But dog can be dominant and not only excited. Exciced tail is over back but not very high. Dominant wolves have tail very much up. How many woves do you see which were dominant to you? ;-)
Thank you for explanation. I see hungarian dogs imported to my country and now i know what Furyos writes. Hungarian dogs are very much shy and they never has tail up. Furyos can write tail up is not good because his dogs will never have such tails... ;-)

I'm the owner of Beau Isabeau z Peronowki.
I think that she (and worser Furcas as seen in these photos) bring the tail too curly at the end and it is not very nice to see. In the bonitation Isabeau take a note (but not a code) about this.

This curly end has nothing to do with dominance or other things, is a way to bring the tail that at rest is straight.

A straight tail should be better, or should be preferable.

On the other side I don't think this is a so terrible fault that can put dogs with this fault out of breeding...you can repair it by compensation,as you can see in this photo :
http://www.lastnavarre.it/immagini/g...a/DSC_3544.jpg

On close up Last Navarre (straight tail), at right Isabeau (curly tail) and at left their puppy Anastasia (mid-curly tail)
:lol::lol::lol:

I do not understand..... If Mirka from Czech writes:

why you write?

If Mirka is writing right then on your photo Last Navarre has wrong tail (too much stright) and good shape have Isabeau and Anastasia (i preffer Anastasia but it is my privat view). Because Last Navarre have "sword" and not "sickle". So why on the bonitation wrong is the tail which is in the standard? Maybe Mirka can explain it to me better because i am confused now... :shock:

Non ti fissare su una foto, per altro in movimento, che ha poco senso. E non ti fissare su un disegno che ne ha ancora meno!
Isa ha un ricciolino finale che non è bello a vedersi e lo ha solo quando è eccitata mentre a riposo la coda è diritta...si ved bene nelle foto di Furcas, che ha lo stesso difetto anche più accentuato.
La coda di Navarre invece fa un arco a parabola, senza il ricciolo finale ed è la coda corretta.

I have idea. Maybe right tail in this shape have only working dogs :rock_3 And for Mirka it is very normal because in czech many people make exams with wolfdog. Brave is in database ZZO, ZOP. And in france no so furyos your dogs have no reason to be proud and no reason to have tails like this.... :lol:

Still no curly tail on photos, please not make confusion.
All dogs have long basis bones on the tail and pretty same pelvis format, that impeach the tail to be curly.
For the tail be curlied the bones in the basis of the tail cannot be long, as the isquian must be high, this afect directly on the movimentation of the dog so, a curlied tailed dog will show different or atipical movimentation, probably wrong angles.
We have two different words ( that I not know in english) for these two tipes of curly tail, one is like Basenji, really curly.

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org...es/basenji.jpg

Other is like Akitas and Alaskans Malamuts.

http://www.kennels.co.uk/images/U.JapaneseAkita.jpg


In the set of the tail we can find normally the J format even in wolves as exprection, this can happen even when the tail was broken when the dog was really little.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_4EC1hClhtb0/...rdsFeeding.jpg

This format can appear because accident ( silly broken at point), because tail format, because tail size as because dog emotions, it will made the dog almost touch the back when carring the tail in dominant upper position.

Wolves tail are full of moviment and life, so, you can find wolves carring the tail in sicke shape and sabre as with the point in J.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4...minanterd9.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8...scaudajso6.jpg

But you will never find a wolf with curly tail, as I never find a wolfdog with curly tail.

Have 2 defects on the tails, one is called Scorpion Tail, isn't so serious but isn't wished, the last tail part turn up at back of the dog, like a scorpion tail, if not deceif-me happen because musculature problems ( to happen on wolves), and we can have death tail, serious problems that means or the bad formation of the neural tail side or by accidents, dogs wich had broken the tail in the basis.

My knowledge of Italian language is very bad :cry: And I am to tired to visit now language translation programmes ;-)
So please, maybe you can translate this for me! :)

Since I was a child I did learn (my father was a breeder) that for a lot of things you have to feel / touch a dog (for example touch : tail, fur aso) before you judge!

In Nordic breeds you "can feel" the real curl in the tail even when they are not exited.
And there is a big difference in “feeling” when you touch the tail of a CsW (with always tail up when he/she is exited) when he/she is in rest, comparing with the tails of Nordic breeds in rest. Maybe everyone has to try these kind of things on several dogs before accusing each other……..

But at he othter hand, I am also not a fan of "over done " exited tails of CsW's :rock_3
And I agree complete with the answer of Ina:)
For me it is a pity that such interesting things are not to discuss normal in this forum :cry:

@ lupis, you did write: "Hungarian dogs are very much shy and they never has tail up"
I back you pardon, but how many Hungarian dogs did you see ( or feel ;-) )

I did see a lot of them with tails up when they were exited ;-) And I did have for a time a replaced Hungarian male in my pack, and I can assure you that he was very self confidenced and did have his tail up when he was exited! (and even Mirka can assure this)

At the other hand… in this topic there is also a picture I did made in a Belgium show of a CsW without any tail up! And this picture is for me the ultimate how a CsW has absolutely not to be!!!!!!!!
And when I think about and look at this dog, his behaviour, his appearance, then I think it is better not to quarrel any longer about a bit more or less curl in the tail when a CsW is exited.
But is more important that all CsW breeders work together to provide that such CsW’s (also in West Europe ) will not be ever breed again…….

http://www.de-ursidae-stee.com/wolfd...Ws/showdog.jpg

In first place personal I feel very, very sorry for this dog that he did to come out on a show where he did feel so very uncomfortable ….,
And second place for his owner to bring such a dog on show .....
And third for his breeder who had the bad luck to breed such a CsW…..

Almost the same things I said in the message with the photo of 3 dogs. Lupis as far i know is italian.


I think that in this thread there are 2 different topics : character of csw and shape of tail.

The dog in this photo hasn't a brave character or is not properly socialized, but in another situation the same dog could have the tail up ! Don't forget that shy dogs are shy with humans and environment that they don't know, but aren't shy with other dogs or versus known people, for example.

So the character has small to nothing influence on the shape of tail.

About shape of tail : maybe I can't explain, but for "curly" obviously I' don't mean the dogs shown by Nebulosa...OK doesn't exist any csw with tail like a malamute, on this point we all agree.

A picture can explain what I think and what I mean :

http://www.lastnavarre.it/foto/tail.jpg

For example my Isabau at rest has a normal tail but when excited is without doubt "curly". On the other side I saw many csw that have curly tail ("hook") even at rest.
And many times the tail, looking from the back, turn to the left or to the right, as Nebulosa said.

I think (but is not a LAW :lol: ) that the preferable tail is "straight" at rest and when excited and should not go left or right.

You know guys, I am rather fascinated, how many posts this thread already has, on such silly topic of what the shape of the tail should be, when carried high up :lol:

It is a pity, that there is not so many responses, when the shy character of the dogs is discussed, or that owners should work with their dogs as well, instead of just dragging them around dog shows.

I can tell you one thing - I´ve been on plenty dog shows or bonitations in Czech republic, judged by experienced judges, CSW specialists. And not a single judge paid any attention to in what shape the dog carries his tail, when excited! :roll: Because it is not important thing at all... The only thing the judge penalises, is the so called "hook" on the tail, which is fault that is seen only if the dog carries its tail down calmly.

Unless the tail would be carried like in basenji, which would indeed be weird, it is of no importance and there are much more important things in the standard, that should be followed and concentrated on!

Great faults like dark eyes, loooooooong tails, looooooong ears, black masks, light heads, missing teeth or character faults like great shyness - that´s what you should discuss and try to avoid in breeding. These are important faults against the standard and they make Czechoslovakian wolfdog to look either like German shepherd in wolf-grey colours, or worse, like a shy jackal.

hi mirka we never say that .... it s not the biggest default in the breed but it 's not really nice and it 's shame when this position is like that ...give an opinion is not a scandal ..not?about this caracteristic is necessary talk about ...that'all ..best regards ... frank

It´s a shame? :lol: No it isn´t. This is a shame:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l7...f/DSC_0137.jpg
Dog scared because person is approaching? Shame!

[IMG]http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l72/Mirkawolf/DSC_0132.jpg/IMG]
The same dog - what a horror, he is being measured! :roll:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l7...f/DSC_0061.jpg
On a dog show ... group of wolfdogs trying to avoid a stranger
touching them - only they have no place left to escape. What a shame and bad reputation for the breed!

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l7...a_Tar_0196.jpg
And what to say about this unfortunate shy sack of bones?

Now you of course can say, that every one of us have different opinion on what is shame, when looking at wolfdogs. Well, this is how I see it.

Sorry for the white around the pics, I don´t have better program here at work to crop (and I wanted to cut out the breeders/owners from the pics).

I am affraid we are again off topic :lol:

The pic that did not show up in the previous post..


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l7...f/DSC_0132.jpg
The same dog - what a horror, he is being measured! :roll:

Mirka, I understand what you said, but i think that the pictures of bonitace that you put on don't say nothing: even dogs with good character (but not trained for this) in this situation can put the tail under the belly.

We saw this at the last bonitace in Italy : absolutely friendly and self confident dogs (especially females) in this new situation put the tail sometimes down. Don't forget that for many of these dogs the most similar situation that they lived was with...the scary veterinary !!!:lol::lol:

I´d maybe agree with this, if I was not present on the bonitation and just saw the pictures. However, I was there and had a chance to observe this (and other dogs) for the whole time of the bonitation, not only when they were measured or even worse, character tested.
And this dog (and some others) were really absolutely scared out of their mind, if anyone would look at them, approach them or try to manipulate them.
I do not call such dogs friendly and confident, but shy and badly socialised.

If a dog is not socialised well and not confident, this will always show up, no matter what the situation is. And opposite, if a dog is self-confident and well socialised, it can handle well even unknown and stressful situations.

Therefore, I will keep my opinion, that shy and unsocialised dog is a shame of its breeder and owner, and creates bad reputation for the breed much more, than a dog with tail up this way or that way :roll:

wow...so many arguments in just one thread.

Tail: I may be wrong but the "curly" tails i've seen were generally not short tails but long ones.
A short tail usually doesn't have the possibility to curl as a long one.
I've seen some dogs with not only the curl but also a kind of deviation to the side. which is not the worst defect in the world but doesn't look nice for sure (at it's proven to be genetic...seen mother and puppies with same "problem")
so in general tail which is UP during show shouldn't be penalized at all...instead tails which are below belly for me should be just "good" or even disqualified because of character.
Pictures of characters I've seen in this thread alone, without knowing the environment around and the situation mean absolutely NOTHING.
Many of you know my Oliver and it's generally difficult not to see his tail UP.
But special environments like during washing up (done by a third person) or when he is eating and I am next to him or when mirka's Cira or Monika's Go Go beat him up his tail is under the belly too. If I take a pic of him in those moments...you would get a totally wrong impression of him.

I agree with the pic from Navarre about "curly" and "straight" and I think Short straight is better than long and curly (or deviating)

Hungarian dogs:
it is true that some hungarian dogs have bad characters...just as some italian, some slovak, some czech, some french...bla bla bla.
There is only one hungarian breeder so if you want to speak directly just do it.
It's obvious that breeders with several litters have not enough time to dedicate to socialise all pups...that's a fact.
I am absolutely satisfied of my CW and I know many with very good characters. Some of them are even too hyperactive (Mona's line!)

All depends on blood, owners and of course also breeder.
Whatever the dog may be if owner has done a good socialization it will NEVER be a dog with tail under belly afraid of it's own shadow, I am sure of that.
Massimo

This topic was cleaned, any off topic do there will be imediatelly deleted or moved.

If you do not agree with the breed standard (which explain exactly the look and shape of the tail) and you do not agree with Mirka who saw MUCH more CzW with the right character so I have another suggestion: don't you think that the problem can be caused by the difference in the character of the dogs? :rock_3 I heard and hear many critics that in the West Europe the character of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is usualy MUCH worser compared to the character of the dogs in the origin countries.
You are shocked when you see dominant CzW and write it is not correct. But maybe you criticize what you don't know? ;-)
I NEVER saw judge which criticized such tail in the origin coutries. In the contrary - for many years the whole champion class was made up of such dogs - SELF CONFIDENT dogs with STRONG character (now it changed a little bit because even in the origin you see more and more "so called" champions with week characters and the tails sometimes even on the belly).
I personaly know many examples when the dogs get worser or much worser note because of the tails caried on the belly. How many dogs you know in France which get worser judgement because of such tails (it means of shy character)? I doubt if any... People write your Ossa is shy but look on the results - she was always judged excellent. Maybe the lack of knowledge about the real character of this breed by the BREEDERS, OWNERS and the JUDGED abroad are the real problem... not the tails carried up... ;)

The breed standard has two places which say about the tail:

1) "TAIL: Set on high, hanging straight down. When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape."

And this is sickle:
http://images.elfwood.com/art/w/i/willy/sickle.gif

2) and about the faults:
"FAULTS: - Tail long, set on low and not carried correctly."
"DISQUALIFYING FAULTS : - Tail untypical in set on and carriage. "

Uncorrect carriage of the tail is the tail on the belly... because it says the dog is shy (has untypical character).
END OF THE STORY...


BUT... I must agree I saw both types of the tail (sickle and sambre). Even by one and the same dog... Simply becausethe tail is different when the attitiude of the dog is changing...
The sickle (faucille) tails have dogs with good attitude - dominant but 'happy' with good mood. The tail changes to sabre when the dog is not "joking" and no more happy but EXTREMLY serious and tend to be agressive. Wolves and Czech Wolfdogs with tail carriedg like this say "I'm not joking. I will bite if you do not leave".... In many cases dogs handle like in the pack of dogs (wolves) showing their power and dominance. Dog which will carry tail like sabre in contact to people is no more "typical" and the tail is also not carried typical. WHY? Because agressive behaviour by CzW is a DISQUALIFYING FAULT.

In the gallery of Furcas you published nice photos which show how the tail should be carried by Wolfdogs:


**** CALM ("Set on high, hanging straight down.")
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/7/...69-7439978.jpg

Here you can see exactly how look the correct tail settled up (dogs with correct settlement have tendency sometimes to carry tail like this:
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/1/...03-2245123.jpg

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/4/...20-8158611.jpg

**** HAPPY AND PLAYING (dog is in good mood)
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/2/...14-3598646.jpg


**** EXCITED (tail go up OVER the back line)

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/10...72-7125790.jpg

*** VERY EXCITED or DOMINANT but HAPPY
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/4/...24-8939033.jpg



I can get and show you later some photos of wolfdogs with the tails up but like sambre but I assure you the dog is in NO WAY a friendly and happy animal... Be happy if you never meet wolfdog like with such tail... :roll:

No - tail is not only "beauty" but MAINLY the character. The tails show you a lot about the character of the specific dog... 8)
I saw the photos of the tail of your dogs. Do you have maybe some photos taken on the dog shows where your dogs have "happy" tails up? Do you have any photos with the tails up? Because the tails carried down can be expresion of two main faults.

1) It can be the defect of 'beauty' - dogs which have uncorrect or too low settled tail tend to carry it always down (in such case the dogs have beauty fault even if you like such carring of the tails). In Nitra I saw something different - dog from France which was carring the tail right way but the tail was MUCH to low settled. Anyway he was also not able to carry the tail up...

2) It can be the defect of the character - unstable dogs will never carry tails up in "stressfull" conditions like dog shows. The extrem case is of course the tail on the belly which is showing the shy character of the dog. Anyway if the dog has always the tail down is a dog which is hard to call a "typical Czechoslovakian Wolfdog"...

So you must be carefull because the most common problems be wolfdogs apply exactly to dogs which carry the tail down... Only by such dogs you can meet shy dogs and dogs with wrong settled and carried tails...

It was the explanation of the judge who made the notice by Beau Isabeau? 8) :lol:

First what are the faults by CzW when it comes to the tail:

*** too long (the tail is longer than the hock joint or if it even touch the ground)
*** low set (hard to explain but I showed the right settlement in the last post. Anyway dogs which low settled tail tend to have the tails always down))
*** wrong position (usualy given by dogs which have always tail on the belly so the tail looks like rolled up on the belly)
*** deformed (sometimes you meet dogs with "broken" tails)
*** untypical (it will take dog with basenji tail ;) - so far there were no dogs which get such note)

In many cases you can see also "háček na ocase" (hook on the tail - curly tail). It is a unwanted remains from the German Shepherd Dogs. I think it is what the judge noticed by Beau Isabeau but he/she was wrong. :rock_3 It has NOTHING to do with carring the tail up simply because the GSD do not carry tails like this... ;) Also the picture with tail down is not exactly right because in this case it can apply also for happy dogs with the correct tails... ;)

So what it is about...? ;) "Curly" tail or "háček na ocase" is typical for long tails heritated from German Shepherd Dogs. Because the tail is too long (or "genes" think the tail is too long ;)) it is curly on the end WHEN the dog is CALM.

So here you have small Beau Isabeau with CORRECT tail:
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2004/5/18139.jpg

and adult Beau Isabeau with CORRECT tail
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/11...97-9785640.jpg

How looks the "curly" tail or "háček na ocase"? Here you have the best example - CALM dogs with curly end of the tail:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Aranka_Sokoli_oko.jpg


In all other cases we can of course discuss how high the dog should carry the tails or how much sickle should be the sickle.... but it is just discussion and private point of view... ;) But the forum is as always open for all discussions... :p

hi margo ..y respect yu and yur work ...no problem for quality of yur selection ...if y have some doubts from tail(and not just yur tails) is just because after speak with a lot of breeders /judge(not only french don' t worry) /and slovakian owners ...my opinion for tail position is more near navarre 's pictures .... and if for curly tail yu find good position it s yur opinion and y respect yur choice ...but for me y prefer higth and up when dominant attitude is present but more straigth ...(like glazia in a ring )y love very mutch yur "G"litter .... (it' s not a secret ... all french people y meet in dog show know that y like very mutch yur marriage with kondor and joly)....for an other part :of caracther and tails ..of course a tail down is a real problem and a fault ..y trust yu and all people y meet ... (they are not saarloos ..... and shy comportment is not good)... y m very happy that yu explain that this forum is open to all discussion ... yu prove that yu are different than "some people"and yur real intelligence and open mind .... thank yu very mutch margo for yur intervention on this "difficult" topic and "different point of vue "subject ... thanks again ...best regards ... frank

Hi Margo,
I must write: "hacek na ocase" you can see more often during movement. When dog run in the show ring it can have it. And when dog is standing and you want make foto, you can see it - or no. And very often is "hacek" to left or right side. Not only like is on your foto. Try find foto where is dog runing. you can see it better.

No, I showed only the "hacek" - on the one photo you can see exactly what is it... But you are writing about second (but different) thing which Rosik also mendioned as the fault heritated from GSD. It is the tendency to turning the tail on the side. It is no more "hacek" (hook) even is some people mix both things... You can see some tails which are turned to the side but are NOT with "hacek" (the hook) on the end...

Margo, I remember seeing Isabeau and I think also her daughter having the tail slightly turning on the side as you mention.
It doesn't seem a big fault for me but it's not evident on your pics.
Last pic of Isabeau is very nice but the tail is hidden...can't see much!
massimo

You know the turning is so far not described but I see it from time to time by Wolfdogs... I think it will be also included in the new prepared commentary for the breed standard....

So far here is all Sona Bognarova (from Slovakia) prepared:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/files/Articles/en/Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.ppt

I'm sure it will be developed in the future because it can be huge help for us all explaining "what the standard says and what is important"...

thanks Margo, very very interesting.
Confirms Sona is number one for me!
...pity she's leaving.
massimo