Epilepsy and wolfdogs!?
 

This week I got a question from a owner of a CsW with epilepsy. He wanted to know if there are more CsW's or SW's with epilepsy. And I did not know exactly (I only heard rumours). :frown:

Unfortunaly in the kynlogian world a lot of people don't want to talk about diseases and hereditary lacks in a breed :(

But at the end that's very silly of course. Because only when you know what is going wrong in breeding lines, you can do something about it !
Of course no breeder is very happy when something unpleasant is happening in his breeding programm. But not one breeder shall do this on purpose!
But when it happens and the breeder does not talk about this, and doesn't change anything, always the individual owners and their dogs will be the victim! :evil:

And that's why I am so glad with very honest breeders like Philipe Bescond for example! (He did give honest information about a kryptorchid dog) That kind of breeders realy take care of a healthy breed. If all breeders would be as responsible as he, there wouldn´t be any genetic problems in the future! :D

On this moment I am very curious if there are more CsW's and SW's with epilepsy in Europe.

Thats why I have a few questions for the readers of this site:

Is (or was) one of you owner or breeder of a CsW or a SW with epilepsy?

How old was your dog when he got it?

What kind of medication did he get?

I added the same questions at the Dutch site. And I hope people will be so cooperative to give honest answers!

Greetings,

Mijke

My Csv has also been diagnosed with epilepsy recently. He is now 3 years old and got his first seizure when he was about 2.5 years old.
Luckily his illness is not severe, as he has had only a few seizures in the last six months.

Currently he is receiving pills with his food and appears normal but it is still too early to say wheter this medication is right for him.


Tuukka & Thor

Re: Epilepsy and wolfdogs!?
 

Yes - I know more CzWs with epilepsy. Some of them had to be put down because of it.
So far (compared to the whole population) they seem to be an exception, but... we saw almost all the dogs have something common with each other. We tried to find common ancestors of this dogs and check if it is a problem of two of the lines of CzW. Almost without success... we marked only one line (thanks to the responsible breeders and owners from Germany).

Reason? You already wrote about it. Maybe Pavel can write more about it, but there were also some cases in the Czech Republic and the breeding committee knows this problem but they don't want to publish the information. And so far we do not know all ill dogs we are not able to fight with this disease....

You right. But not only owners are victims of the insincere breeder. Imagine this: a breeder is looking for a male for his bitch. He find a nice HD-free male. What he doesn't knows almost all puppies of this dog have HD. Because it is not allowed to publish the HD-results of the ill dogs he has no idea about is. But he means well. He use this dog and the result are a lot of ill puppies.

But HD is a disease which is hard to control. There are better examples: heart problems, cancer (which so far reach only dogs which are ancestors from a dogs from one kennel).
But the truth is: so far we do not have sufficient information about illness of CzWs. I can make some conjectures but there is not enough data to prove it.

It's the reason it's exceptionally important to colect the information about all diseases and death causes. We will need it - maybe not in the near future but in next 4-5(?) generations...

So someone of you knows a CzW which died because of an exceptional reasons (a disease which can be inherited: heart problems, HD, ED, PRA, cancer, epilepsy, and, and..) please let us know. We will not publish this information - we will just save it for future until we will be sure we have enough proofs...

sorry :oops: when I wrote this I didn't realise this option, while I as a breeder ad the same experience with a male (of an other breed) with heart disease. But till now I was lucky; none of the pups became ill (but of course we don't know how it is in future with their puppy's :( )

I completely agree with you!! :D But I also know a lot of silly people who don't want to inform us or other ones :(

And when people are going on and on with the same breeding lines with genetic health problems, we all don't notice the problems on this moment. But in future this can ruin a breed, and then we all know what was going on!!

I only can aks, just like Margo did, please inform eachother about these things! Only when we all are honoust and work together we can keep healthy breeds !

greetings,
mijke

Unfortunately I was one of the owners of an epileptic dog. My previous dog had epilepsy. The story started as an one seizure a tha age of 2,5 years and then nothing for half year. But then seizures started again and with shorter intervals. Moreover they occured in clusters. Treated with barbiturates and valproic acid derivates per os then when the worse came into worst with injections of diazepam to stop seizures. Finaly the life of my dog consisted of seizures every 4-5 hours and lying down on the floor without eating and drinking for days. Nothing helped he was unable to walk. I euthanized him no necropsy was done, maybe mistake but that time I was unable to send him to lab. The story is on pages of Czech kennel club. I don't blame his breeder it was probably the first case from all of her puppies.

Jiri

I absolutely agree with Margo and try to collect cases since years. But with epileptic dogs you have to be aware that not every case is inherited and that not every inherited case means a problem in the line. That makes observation double necessary to recognise genetic problems in time but a few cases are absolutely "normal" in dog breeds, like in cats, humans and so on. Even in breeds with epileptic breedinglines the genetic ways are sometimes very different.
It is because of these problems very important for breeders to stay in contact with the owners of their puppies. This is, as I can say out of own experience, sometimes almost impossible. If puppiebuyers don´t tell their breeders about problems he has no possibility to realise problems in time.

Ina

I agree with you and this is also just the same for other health problems like haert for example)


I had no intention to condemn breeders when they don't know about something!

But all kind of health problems seems to be a secret in every breed :(
It is very strange but even owners don't want to talk about it. Some individual persons did give me confidentinal the health information about their dog, but they don't want me to talk about it to other persons, breeders or clubs.

I had hope maybe they should react on this forum or on the dutch forum but non reactions :( And I think they are to blame to....

Of course nobody wants to have epilepsy, heart problems etc (genetic or not) in breeding lines.
But when nearly nobody wants to speak about these things, you can wait for problems in future....

Mijke

Sorry - I should write it before. It apply not only to epilepsy but to all problems where the way of inheritance is not precisely known...

I checked the info about epilepsy already before when we get info about first ill dogs (Ina, please correct me if I'm wrong).
There are two types of epilepsy - acquired and inherited. To check with which case we deal by a dog we have to examine him. First the veterinarian will try to exclude the possibility of acquired epilepsy which can be evoked by different factors: injury of the head, diseases, aso.. If all this reasons are eliminated it is probably inherited epilepsy. Additionally in the most cases the inherited epilepsy disclose before the age of 5 years (usually earlier).

We are not vets but using the database we can also check the possibilily of a inherited epilepsy. If there are more dogs from one line which before 5 y. fall ill it is probably inherited epilepsy. The probability of a right diagnosis grows if we have information about more ill dogs...

I´m no neurological specialist either, and in dayly veterinary hours it isn´t that important. Under normal conditions you can´t diagnose epilepsy directly, you need a EEG for that and it is not available for normal diagnosis in dogs and only used for research. If you get in a dog that seems to have had a epilileptic seizure you look for all other reasons that could cause alike problems like heart failure, failure of several organs and so on. If you can´t find anything you diagnose epilepsy. If you have seizures without any diagnosable changes in brainstructue its primary epilepsy (thats the german definition, I don´t know if I translated it correctly) if there is any organic brainproblem it`s the secundary form. There are forms that only make changes in some parts of the body or cause strange behaviours and a generalized form with the typical seizures.
In humans the primary form is definatly genetic. In dogs there is a primary form at least in some breeds. Research for that exists only for some laboratory breeds and lines. The diagnostic possibilitys in dogs are often not good enough to differ between those two forms and the genetic way seems to differ between breeds. In cases like the discribed one where the seizures got worse under treatment and the dog had to be put down a secundary form is much more likely.
The primary form normally occurs between two and five years of age. Brain damages that can cause epilepsy don´t have to be that bad and the seizures can occure years later. We once had a case where we think, that the seizure causing accident happend 4 years before, the dog ran into a fence and was a little bit dizzy for one hour. There is no way to get a secure diagnosis of secundary epilepsy in a case like that.
All these problems make the diagnosis of inherited forms so very difficult and more or less its a question of counting cases and watching lines. Anyway a dog with epilepsy should be kept out of breeding and it is for great interest for breeding that it goes to autopsy after his death.

As you see I´m not any wiser than you are and I have looked up every book in reach some month ago. As long as there isn´t a relevant increase of cases in a special line we don´t know if there is a genetic problem in the breed or not. The authors of the diffrent books give different advise for consequences. Some say you shouldn´t breed the parents of the dog too some just speak of the dog itself. I think you should watch the family very carefully, if there aren´t any more cases in the nearer relatives it is enough to keep only the dog out. But this means too that there is a problem with breeding dogs very early or very often. They might have a lot of offspring that has bred too before you get the first case.

regards
Ina

hi, on the subject of epilepsy, i know of two dogs in uk, one a labrador the other a collie, both started taking fits at about 14mths of age, the vets treated the dogs for epilepsy, the owners of the labrador got second oppinion from another vet, there dog was not epileptic but suffered from
HYPOGLYCEMIA where the sugar level in blood gets low, this can cause the dog to go into a fit & to have seizures, so it may be worth having second oppinion on the dogs, there is usful web site you my like to read & find out more on this www.vetinfo.com/dhypogly.html best regards paul winder

DNA tests - epilepsy
 

UPDATED MARCH 2006: Dr. Yuri F. Melekhovets, Laboratory Director of HealthGene Corp., Toronto, Canada, has announced that his group has located the gene responsible for producing inherited epilepsy in canines. HealthGene Corporation is the largest private veterinary DNA diagnostic and research laboratory in Canada. DNA-based testing for animal infectious and genetic diseases. HealthGene now is studying the various mutations that produce different forms of epilepsy in different breeds. Dr. Melekhovets requests that owners of dogs with epilepsy submit blood samples to further that research. Samples should come from dogs which have been medically diagnosed with epilepsy or have had symptoms of epilepsy for at least two years. Two vials of blood samples per dog should be sent in lavender topped tubes, together with a pedigree and brief health history (whether it has seizures, when they started, whether they are mild or severe, and what type of diagnostics have been performed). Send the samples by FedEx, using HealthGene's account number (#238368138), using FedEx's International Air Waybill with the following information for "Shipment Information":

a) Commodity description: "Canine Blood Samples for DNA Testing";
b) Total Declared Value for Customs is $1.00;
c) international first; and
d) 3 copies commercial invoice.

Send the vials to this address:
HealthGene Laboratory, 2175 Keele
Street, Toronto, Ontario M6M 3Z4 Canada.

Dr. Melekhovets may be contacted at:
telephone: 905-669-5399;
fax: 905-669-2235;
email: dr.melekhovets @ healthgene.com (without the spaces)
http://www.healthgene.com/

Epilepsy
 

All my research tells me that wolves are healthier than domestic dogs. As such, if true, why would wolfdogs health and more pointedly epilepsy be more prevalent. Or is it an abberation?

Actually -

Concerning epilepsy I do believe that it is a rare condition for CSVs - but certainly not something which is unknown (I have heard of a couple of cases) if a test is available for the gene which causes inherited epilepsy and IF the CSVs which suffer from epilepsy actually carry the gene (there could be other reasons for the epilepsy - it does not have to be hereditary) then as a breeder I would certainly be interested in knowing this to prevent crossing two CSVs which are carriers of the epilepsy gene and which could therefore potentially produce epileptic pups.

One thing that is important to understand is that for this test (or indeed any other test) to have any real value for the CSV community it needs to be performed on a significant proportion of CSVs - it is no good my knowing what the result of my dogs epilepsy assays are when I have no idea what the situation in other dogs may be like. I might have some information on hand (ie my dogs results from the genetic assay) but unless I can compare them to other peoples results in for the same assay I cannot possibly use that information to make an informed decision at the time of mating.

At the moment on the Dutch forum this is a Hot topic :(, and now I heard off several diffrent cases off Epilepsy in the breed of CSW :(.
I really start to wonder how big is the problem Epilepsy in the breed of the CSW ??

Or is it just as everything else in this breed :roll: just a unlucky case on itself.

Hope somebody can give me a honest answer.
Groette Martine.

Yes, epilepsy is in this breed too. But I know personally only a few dogs in Czech republic (less than is of fingers on one hand)with it.
Important is, don´t breed dogs with this illnes.....It is always the same: in every country breeders need club with working breedcomission:dontknow

Breedcommision 8).
Hopefully someday, but then for whole Europe ;-).

But you say, only the dog you must shut out of breeding ??
And every site you find on the internet about epilepsy they say shut out the whole line :shock:.
But how you do this in the breed off CSW ??
And if there are just a few in CZ and a few in Holland, how much shall it be in whole of Europe ??

The more I know about epilepsy the more cloudy it gets for me :|.

Groette Martine.

Hi,

in Germany we also have several dogs with epilepsy. You can even trace the lines.
The problem is the breeders most often deny such cases and put even pressure on the owner not to bring it into public.

Michael

I can not trace it :roll:.
Because it is a disease no one wants to talk about.

And if we all keep silence :stupid.
Maybe someday, it is as normal as by the malinois.

Groette Martine.

Because we not know how epilepsie goes,we must not shut out hole line,because thats make the breed population to small.
Epilepsie is not the only sicknes there is..

Maybe it's posible to make a european list with names of sick dogs on this site?
It's difficult to do it in each country apart,because there is al lot of import from all country's.(and soms coutry's don't have a breeding club of they do nothing with ilness) .So it's better to centralice it.

Only with permission of te owner ofcourse.

Gr. Christa

In holland there is a very small breed the dutch Schapendoes. They had a severy problem with PRA, al the breeders, owners and the club agreed that this was a big problem. So they did something about it! They found a DNAmarker, so now there are no new PRA dog born anymore, in the future they wil try to get rid of the problem DNA totally.

This is only to tel you what is possible if al breeders work together!
Why not try to make the largest DNA datapool ever ? collect some blood from a lot of CSecloslovakian wolfdog, maybee even try to do it when the puppies are stil at the breeders place. Store the DNA (blood samples) in a special laboratory so it is there whenever there is a reason to look at it.

I hope that something can be done, but than you wil need the cooperation from the breeders and the owners.

greetings Judith

The problem is NO. I would even say we get less infromation about such cases by CzW than before... Sure from time to time we get info about ill dog but so far (with the exception of the german case mentionen by Ina) it was not "going in a line".

And we have pretty good overview over the populatins in Czech Republic, Gemany, Poland and Slovakia...

So the Holland case is really an exception - there are more registered cases of epilepsy in Holland than in ALL other countries together. The next problem is - in NL you have dogs imported from different countries, different cases - it means different lines, different genetics BUT ALWAYS the same problem...
So my suggestion is: don't you think in can not be the problem of CzW or genetic reasons for the illness but the problem can be is the country...? I mean it really - maybe there is something what make the country different and what do not 'aapear' in other - what can be the reason for such big amount of epilepsy cases..?

There are different reasons for epilepsy - look on them:

Root Cause Of Seizures In Dogs
* Brain Tumors
* Genetic Factors
* Head Trama
* Hereditary Factors
* Infection, Cysts and Cancer
* Lead, Chemicals, Additives and Poisoning
* Liver Disease
* Low Blood Sugar
* Renal Kidney Failure
* Severe Worm Infestation
* Vaccinations
* Vitamin Deficiencies

Other Factors That May Trigger A Seizure In Dogs
* Abuse or neglect
* Air fresheners
* All toxic flea products
* BHA - a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* BHT- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Carpet powders
* Cell Phones
* Cigarette smoke
* Dryer sheets
* Dust
* Eating cat or dog feces
* Ethoxyquin- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Excessive exercise
* Fabric softeners
* Fumes from all bathroom cleaners
* Fumes from bleach
* Fumes from dusting products
* Fungi, Bacteria and Germs
* Hair spray
* Heartworm Pills
* Household cleaners, including pine cleaners
* Loud noises
* Low quality canned dog food
* Low quality commercial dog biscuits and treats
* Low quality dry dog food
* Lyme Encephalitis
* Lyme Vaccine
* Mold
* Overheating
* Paint chips from lead based paint
* Paint fumes
* Plastic bowls
* Rabies Vaccine
* Rawhides
* Red food dye- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Salt, Sugar, Aspartame, Monosodium Glutamate
* Scented candles
* Sodium Nitrate
* Stress
* Toxic flea collars
* Toxic shampoos and dips
* Vaccinations
* Vitamins with high sodium level

So it would be enough when the vets use specific kind of vaccine or the food producers (some factories produce dog food for differeent companies so you can find the same problem in different kinds of dog food (different labels)) produce food what cause sometimes seizures by some dogs....

It is just a suggestion because if there are more dogs with epilepsy in Holland than in any other country it can be something from this list or... Dutch owners have really bad luck while choosing the puppies...

Wow, I did not speak over a big amount of cases :shock:.
I spoke over several or a few :roll:.

And Hanka told there are also a few in CZ, so that is not so diffrent from Holland ;-).
And the other thing I spoke about, that it is a hot topic on the Dutch forum ;-).

Groette Martine.

But Thank you for this answer ;-).

I also do not speak about big amount... If it would be so there will be for sure some official investigations in this case... ;)
I mean more the number of wolfdogs per number the CzW in the specific country...

We have in Poland 150 CzWs and not even one known cases of seizures (and I do not count the official numbers only :rock_3). In Germany there are about 500 CzW - it would be interestig how many OTHER cases knows Ina which DO NOT belong to the "ill" line.... I think it will be very few...
In Czech Republic we have over 1000... But it will be very hard do count because the information flow in CZ is worser than in other coutries (it is not possible to keep contact with all the owners).

So I do not mean the are MANY CzW with seizures in NL but that there are more that in other countries... If the topic become HOT TOPIC it means people see there is something wrong....
If the population in NL counts about 240 CzW and there are already some cases (4,5,6..) it is already much more there somewhere else....

I don't attack Dutch people that they do something wrong. I just say that there can be internal problem bif so far it is not possible to trace the lines in NL. Maybe it is really not about the lines but there are other reasons...

I mean something like the problem with the milk in France.
There also famous case in America now - some very famous companies in USA are sued at the moment because they improted rice from China which caused many cases of kidney failure and also cases of poisoning by dogs. Many dogs died because of it... And really very famous dog food marks are involved in it...
For sure many dog owners there started to think the health of some breeds get worser because there are more kindney problems that before... 8)

What I mean - let's say Acana import some poisoned ingredient from China... The "infected" food comes to Poland and in the "epilepsy free" population we will get pretty many cases of epilepsy by CzW... even if the genetic of the breed has nothing to do with it... :p

But,.............................this one line in Germany, should this not be known by other breeders ??

Groette Martine.

4 Dogs with Epilepsy in Holland which I heard off.

One from Poland who has primair epilepsy.
One from Holland who has epilepsy but do not know yet, if it is primair or secundair.
One from Holland who has primair epilepsy.
One from Holland who has secundair because off a other faillure off the body.

And the discussion is mostly about should you shut out all the line off the dog who has epilepsy ??( this is deffently not possible if you want to keep the breed )
Or only the dog ??
Some part off the bloodline ?? if yes untill how far you goes ??
How big is the problem ??
Is it wise to make a publiclist with dogs who has it ??
Aso aso aso.
Because it just is a disease which is really terrible for the dog but also for the owner.
I do not believe the story of milk or anything like that :roll: but on everything else I have a open mind ;-).

Groette Martine.

Sorry forgot :|.
Also the discussion goes.
How do you really know when it is primair and secundair we al know what is the diffrent but.....................
Should you trust the first veterinair, our should you go for a second opinion ???????? if the first say it is primair!!!

Groette Martine.

And now it will be very intresting to also know how many cases there are known in Italie, France and the other country in Europe ;-).

Groette Martine.

Primary epilepsy is a genetic based inheritated type of epilepsy. So far there are NO diagnostics which can make the vet sure it is exactly such type...
Allthe vet can do is to rule out all other possibilities. So it means it is primar GENETIC epilepsy when it is not caused by:

* Brain Tumors
* Head Trama
* Infection, Cysts and Cancer
* Lead, Chemicals, Additives and Poisoning
* Liver Disease
* Low Blood Sugar
* Renal Kidney Failure
* Severe Worm Infestation
* Vaccinations
* Vitamin Deficiencies
* Abuse or neglect
* Air fresheners
* All toxic flea products
* BHA - a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* BHT- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Carpet powders
* Cell Phones
* Cigarette smoke
* Dryer sheets
* Dust
* Eating cat or dog feces
* Ethoxyquin- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Excessive exercise
* Fabric softeners
* Fumes from all bathroom cleaners
* Fumes from bleach
* Fumes from dusting products
* Fungi, Bacteria and Germs
* Hair spray
* Heartworm Pills
* Household cleaners, including pine cleaners
* Loud noises
* Low quality canned dog food
* Low quality commercial dog biscuits and treats
* Low quality dry dog food
* Lyme Encephalitis
* Lyme Vaccine
* Mold
* Overheating
* Paint chips from lead based paint
* Paint fumes
* Plastic bowls
* Rabies Vaccine
* Rawhides
* Red food dye- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Salt, Sugar, Aspartame, Monosodium Glutamate
* Scented candles
* Sodium Nitrate
* Stress
* Toxic flea collars
* Toxic shampoos and dips
* Vaccinations
* Vitamins with high sodium level

So much theory... And the reality is: the vets are saying it is primar when they do not find the reason for it... You see it is simple not possible to rule out all the possible reasons... So all they make are more or less tests (blood, usg, aso...) - in the most cases they check ONLY the blood... and done... for them it is primar...

But to be honest - when you see this list a vet can NEVER say it is primar - till there will be no DNA tests...

:lol: oeps sorry.
But I hope that you copypaste the list :evil_lol.

Back to Topic,

That is mine point exactly, to have peace with "if we can not find anything thene" it will be .......(in this case Primair Epilepsy) :stupid.

For myself ( mine dog) I will defintly want I second opinion if not a third a fourth and so on.
I know it is not surtern until there is a DNA, but vets also make mistake's it will defintly not be the first time there is something they missed specialie when you see the list :roll:.

Groette Martine.

I know how the Belgian Shepherd dog breeders handle with it.... They take out of the breeding all dogs with epilepsy. But because Belgian Teuverens are a breed where genetic factor of the epilepsy is highly suspected many breeders wait till the dogs are 4 yers old before they breed with the dogs (in the most cases the primary form of epilepsy appear before the dog is 4 years old). It is like this by the 'infected' breeds.
So by CzW I think it is enough when will will take out the ill dog... till we have no proves it is 'in the line' and there are no DNA tests for CzWs....

The scientist say the prevalence of epilepsy in every dog population is about 0.5 to 5.7%. So even if we wil have the best tests there will be still 0.5-5.7% of dogs with epilepsy...
And so far I can say by CzW you have much les than the 5%...

So even if the two cases of primary epilepsy you mentioned would be REALLY a primary epilepsy it will make 0.0083% of epileptic CzW.... You see it is even less that the proven minimum... :rock_3

What seems to be impossible is sometimes possible... 8) There were so many cases of kidney failure and death of dogs that many companies counted with MILIARDS of dolars which they will have to pay to the owners... Because of the compromise they agreed with "only" 25 millions...

Look on the list - one of the possible reasons for epilepsy is BHA (the same problem can cause BHT and ethoxyquin). All these are antioxidants which are pretty common in the dog food... So it is enough that there are some dogs which get more dog food with BHA or are more susceptible to it and you have another case of dog with epilepsy.... 8)

They say it's the primary epilepsy because it's safe. When they not know the cause and have the possibility to be a genetic disease, it's better not uses this dog on reproduction because the risk.
Supose the vet say that this epilepsy may be not genetic, you make a litter and born puppies with the problem, the vet will be guilty because he was irresponsible. ;-)

I think epilepsie (and every other ilniss) is genetic,only the way how is the Question.So you must never breed with A dog that have an ilniss.And look good to the other dogs in the line.Thats the only thing you could do.

Gr. Christa

So, you have a healty dog, this dog receive a strong beat in head by accident, after it he start with seizures time to time and turn in a epileptic dog, this epilepsy will be genetic?! :shock:
Really not, this epileptic dog can safelly be used in reproduction and he won't pass the problem, because he not have it in hiis genetic, an accident causes it.

The question is if someone should want to use this dog, if the dog owner is completely honest about his dog.... I personally would not use this dog... there are enough 'healthy' dogs to use

Are you sure the dogs are healthy? And have no epilepsy? Or maybe the owners do not say the truth? :rock_3


There was one GREAT dog in Czech Republic - hie had secondary epilepsy. He was many time beaten by the owner with metal rod in the head. He was taken away from the owner and had one litter. The dog died as young dog - the damages were too big. In the last time of his life he had seizures... Now there are already 3 generations with blood of this dog in Czech Republic and other countries. Not even one has epilepsy...

No wonder... Stupid owner is really not a genetic based illness.... :roll:

You wil never know if a dog is completely healthy also not if you get al the information from the owner... but I think it is not wise to use a dog with an ilness that is probably hereditary

Yes, but there is the question, you know the dog in this case isn't epileptyc by genetic, but by accident.
I would use without problem if he have interessing line and if I was sure about the truth of the history told by the owner.

what about a dog that is dysplastic and the owner tell's you that he made a slippery on the smooth surface when he was a young dog ...... would you use this dog also?

We're talking about very different illness.
If you beat the head of your dog, he can hurt his brain enought to have epilepsy for the rest of his life, and this surelly won't be genetic.
At moment I really not believe that exists non genetic displasy even proof me the contrary, I never see a case of non-genetic displasy as nor a good explanation to this, a heavy dog wich pass his life slippering in a smoth surface can have articulation problems that can interfere in hip's results giving a worst results, like a B, but not displasy if he not have it genetically, but, if he already be displasic, the results can get really worst, and this will be genetic anyway.

I was looking for some statistics and found this: before in the most cases the vets classified most cases of epilepsy as idiopathic (it means genetic based). But there were some studies done in Denemark and published in the 'Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine' in June 2008. And the results were:
- 25% of cases were classified as idiopathic - GENETIC based
- 16% as symptomatic (cause unknown)
- 45% as cryptogenic epilepsy (cause unknown)
- in 14% of these a classification was not possible

You can not say about epilepsy as 'genetic' illenes when only 1/4 of the cases have something to do with genetic based reasons...

I agree we must note such cases and not use any dogs where it is not 100% sure the epilepsy is a secondary epilepsy... To be relly sure we can not use any dogs with epilepsy... But it is really not needed to start any witch hunt... :rock_3

No. Smooth surface will cause dyspalsia only by dog which have genetic basis for the HD... You have the same with fat puppies - such puppies and heavy wolfdogs have more % of displatic dogs than wolfdogs in the wolf type (lighter)... We saw also the relationship between the HD results and type of food the dog gets...
But always there is some genetic reason behind it... and I would take it into consideration...

Look, I'm not agaist you.. I really agree with you - I just follow the DR. House words "I don't ask why dog owners and breeders lie, I just assume they all do"... :lol:
No, I will not use such dog... But using healthy one I can never be sure if the dog is 100% healthy and the owner is not hiding some dark facts about his dog... 8)

You can, but than you have to wait until the dog is a year of 10.
It will be much easier to live but also boring if you know everything 100% :twisted:.

But I also believe not everything is genetic.

Groette Martine.

The only thing that bugs me with every Discussion about diseases
that every one jumps one rear legs. Why??????????

Everyone love the breed and want the best for it. Or not????

Maybe there aren't a lot who has epilepsy.We want to find out if there are and so how many etc because they do survey to the GEN of primary epilepsy:http://www.koirangeenit.fi:80/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id= 18&Itemid=44

I don't believe that other country's don't have dogs whit epilepsy because my dog is one of those in Holland that has it and her breeder has lots of dogs all over Europe from the same line.And it is a race what has arisen from the German shepherd. That line is much more sensitive to epilepsy.So i don't understand that people jumps on there rear legs because if you know things you can make the breed better. No it does not mean that you know if a dog is 100% healthy but why make the change that you can have a unhealthy dog bigger?????? That's not what you want for the dog if you really love him/her. Is it????

I think Epilepsy shouldn't be taken lightly. And of course there are many influences that can cause secundair epilepsy. But is there anyone who wants to take the risk to breed with a dog with primairy epilesy?


I could say that my dog has bumpt her head into something when she was young. So can I breed now? No, I will not breed with her because the risk is to high. I don't want little puppy's with epilepsie and I don't want a breed with a lot of epilesie. And it is very pitty, because my darling has a very good karakter.


How can you verify that it is something from the out-side? For example the wolfdog earlyer spoken of had many "witnesses" but who says that is was the hitting on the head that caused the epilepsy? Maybe is was the primairy what came later on in his life.


If my dog had bumped her head very heavy in the past... could I point the epilepsy to that? Or should I not take the risk that it could be primairy epilespy? Ok, with some things you can profe it, like the cleaning stuff... when it is gone there will be no attack and visa versa. But you can't profe everything, and then you are taking a risk!


Something else: There came somewhere the statement that I could be something here in the netherlands that could cause the "lange amount of" epilesy here. But could it not be that a lot of owners do not know that their dogs have epilesie? A lot of wolfdog owners, keep then out-side in a large kennel. How do you know a dog of you had an attack? Because of the faeces or urin? Maybe because he/she is out of breath or is covered slime? Or could all of that have a more les dramatic cause? It had a real need or had just played a lot? And than I am talking about the worse type of epilepsie, not the "lighter" types, which leave no signs behind.


Ofcourse I'm not saying that you should see epilepsy everywhere. But I get the idea from some reactions that epilepsy is taken to light... and I think we all agree we don't want epilepsy as a disease that comes with the breed, like with other breeds.

I'm sorry, but I do not think that anyone here thinks lightly about the disease :shock:.

Omega 3 supplementation may help your epileptic dog.


"Epilepsy Behav. 2009 Aug;15(4):527-8. Epub 2009 Jun 21.

Positive impact of omega-3 fatty acid supplementation in a dog with drug-resistant epilepsy: a case study.

Scorza FA, Cavalheiro EA, Arida RM, Terra VC, Scorza CA, Ribeiro MO, Cysneiros RM.

Disciplina de Neurologia Experimental, Universidade Federal de São Paulo/Escola Paulista de Medicina (UNIFESP/EPM), São Paulo, Brazil. [email protected]
Abstract

Epilepsy is the most common neurological disorder in both dogs and humans. Although the pharmacological options for treatment of epilepsies have increased, it has been reported that two-thirds of dogs with epilepsy are refractory to antiepileptic drug therapy. To our knowledge, there are no experimental studies in the literature that show an effect of omega-3 supplementation on epilepsy in dogs. Our case study describes the effectiveness of daily intake of a moderate amount of fish oil in a case of canine epilepsy."

Here are given quantities:

fish oil (oral omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, 2 g/day)

Extract:

A 2-year-old female Great Dane with a history of recurrent seizures
was brought to a veterinary neurologist. Tonic–clonic seizures
occurred at a frequency of three times per month and were
characterized by facial automatisms, forelimb clonus, rearing and
falling, and loss of consciousness. After a detailed physical and neurological
examination, evaluation of hematology and serum biochemistry,
and magnetic resonance imaging of the brain, the
veterinarian diagnosed the condition as idiopathic epilepsy and began
treatment aimed at seizure control. A trial therapy with phenobarbital
(2.5 mg/kg, twice a day orally) failed to adequately control
the seizures: after 8 weeks of treatment there remained two seizure
episodes per month. Typically, potassium bromide is used to
supplement phenobarbital in refractory cases. However, in this
case, it was decided to supplement the dog’s diet with moderate
amounts of fish oil (oral omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids,
2 g/day). The frequency of the epileptic seizures markedly fell after
50 days of combination therapy with phenobarbital and omega-3
fatty acid. During the subsequent 18-month period, seizure frequency
fell to one per 3 months, a reduction of about 85%.