Is there at least one working line in the breed of csw?
 

Hi Przemek,

you wrote in the german forum a experienced nice artikel ablut "workinglines" in CSW. But sorry to say, you didn´t not answer the main question from me, at what point a working line starts? How many generation must have been prove that they are able to work and how many puppies from each litter must have passed working examinations?

I guess everyone knows that you can take part with IPO 1 in shows in the working class and for the FCI/VdH this is a working dog.

I like to hear more opinions to that theme. In germany there are a lot of people, can say the most of them, who say, there are not enough CSW to say that there exists a working line. But my example are the puppies from Hasso broke down over Amber, Bixi and so on who have proved to 4th generations and at least 3 puppies from each litter with IPO and more that they are working dogs.

How people in italy see it, like Massimo who is working too with Olli? Of course Olli comes not from a working line. But all the pups from Ambra, like Last Navarre, Lorenz Farouk are so called working dogs.

And remember, not everyone who has a working CSW does tests and working results.

The discussion starts because there is one german breeder who has a litter with the parents coming out from my point of view from Worling lines.

Nice easter to everyone.

Christian

In italy only 2 dogs have IPO1
SKY and Susie Passo del lupo

SKY:
Guess what...he's son of
I'Navarre Arimminum, son of Ambra, daughter of HASSO.
Hasso surely gives working lines because many working dogs come from him.

Susie Passo del lupo
Daughter of Cutt and Usta
Usta is mother of Shinook, Trained and with certificate for civil protection.
Usta is sister of UMA
Uma is mother of Oliver...
Also mother of Tajga pdl, trainable dog.

I think we are in two different cases.
in the first case we have an evident working line.
Not only different generations get the blood but also different litters from different mothers get it.

In the second case i think (my personal opinion) we can see an open and friendly temper line, not necessarily a "working" line.
Carmen Vlèí stezka daughters and puppies from daughters I have seen are all with quite open character, easily trainable (not wolfish and shy). But..., for what i see, not exaclty working line.
It took me months and months to get from oliver a simple "obedience" that i saw a German shephard do in 1 hour on his first training day (DAMN!!!)

Of course in my opinion you can see a working line ONLY if owners are WORKING owners...
there can be a "non working line" with some working dogs and a "working line" with non working owners but you will NEVER know it was a working line.

....confused? dazzled? :roll: :roll:

ME TOO!!
massimo

I agree with you!
I see the same also in other breeds.

In holland it is also difficult to work with a CsW when you are a working owner! Because a lot of groups even refuse members with a CsW :(

And the most crazy thing: in Holland the CsW is still not official recognised as a working breed! :twisted:
So when I want to do an IPO examn, I have to go to an other country! :roll: :(
But we are working on it, and we hope the rules will change in future! :D

Me not. Very clear and logical! :bigok :D

hello

in french it's so difficult to working with wolfdog , no IPO

because only tracking and obediance

furcas on tis time "working " in fact he starting but mother and father as furcas working "VZ1, VZ2, OB0, ZOP, ZZO, SVP1, ZVP1"

and mother" VZ1, ZOP, ZVP1, OB0"

but, from how many generation can one consider that a dog resulting from one lined of work??

we can considerated as an wolfdog have a temperate as working dog and working with this dog this is the real difference

no ??

Already exist differences betwen selection for say about one show line and one working line?
In my opinion, only exist working line if already exist a show line, dogs that cannot work or will not work because lack someting like body or behavior for this.
I not have see so big differences in the CzW at least in body.

just one thing...for those of you who have any doubts about Hasso being NOT ONLY a working DOG but also a working BLOODLINE...
Hasso z Kladenské záøe CS
ZM, ZVV1, SchH1, SchH2, IPO1, IPO2, OP1, IPO3, ZPS1, FH1, FH2, ZVV1, VZ1

direct sons of Hasso:
Ira z Litavské kotliny CS
ZOP, ZM, RH-E, ZVV1, VZ1, ZPU1, ZPU2, SchH1, SchH2, IPO1, IPO2, BH, ZPO1, ZZO

Irma z Litavské kotliny CS
PT1, PT2, LA1, LA2, LA3

Ambra Vlèí nadìje
SchH1, IPO1

Kelt z Molu Es
SchHA, ZPO1, IPO1, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZOP

Sky and Upstream Ariminnum are direct sons of Ambra...

Can it be simply a coincidence?
massimo

We have an offspring from Upstream Ariminum.

Guess something.

He loves working :mrgreen: He works hard, very good and is willing to learn anything. Training this dog is fun.

Our other dog is able to work, too. BUT: It is no fun for her- it is hard work to teach her something and she does not really want to work. She does it, because she has to, not because she likes it.

Selection, bloodline or training?

I think all these point are important and go together.

To breed working dogs you need to have dogs which are able to work and love to work. And the easiest thing to find these dogs is to check the dogs which are already successful workers.

It might take some time to establish a working line, but I am pretty sure it will come in future. Maybe people start looking at pedigrees and ask for training. And maybe other people just want to get a wolfdog .....

For anybody who loves wolfdogs to see Hero Od Uhoste and Upstream Ariminnum working is a great honour....
I have the luck to have seen both in less than a week....
Api is female and so her heat interrupts the excellent work done by her owner, but trust me, they are both really impressive, hero in particular looks like a working machine!!
Congratulations again to their Owners and Breeders.
Wolfdogs are not only "wolfish" looking dogs....
massimo

Hello Massimo, here in czech republic exist "working blood line" of course. In this bloodline are some wolfdogs, who has not exams. But you can see, they have working possibility. They love training, aport, barking...... The breeders of wolfdogs in czech republic know, what dogs are very good for training and what puppies from some parents can be good for it. Quantity of exams of parents is not important. Important is working preconditions. I know more wolfdogs with this characters. And not all have some exams. :D

Hanka dear, by mentioning Hasso I absolutely didn't mean to exclude all the others! :mrgreen:
Just that it is much easier to use Hasso as an example because he and close parents have provable exams.
Surely there are dogs from "working line" with good working possibilities (as I already mentioned in my first post) but i can only bring as "proof" mine or other peoples words.
Exams are easier proof!!
:wink:
massimo

Hi, a degree Masimo. if dog not have exam he not have proof whe hes working.
people cann more say : "me dog is super utility, but i not have and not make exams -this is stupid idea". and hes dog is't working dog in reality.
Only exam cann this proofe.
:roll: (regards from Hasso linie Harmonia is working bitch with Hasso blood :) hes puppies have working possibility like shes :) )

Yes I know, my female is daughter of Hasso too. She loves !!!! training and all types of activites (Mushing, tracking, obedience, protect training, she barks very much,she can run with aport all day,...) But she has not exams (She is female of my daughter for funny dog activites and hobby dog-sports and she is family darling, only) But I know, if I will mate her with good dog, the puppies can be very good for work too. And some her puppies have the same character like she has. I know, what she is, some my frineds and other czech breeders know, what she is and what are her puppies. If somebody will want puppy for sporttraining the owner can choose from her litter. And_ I know- from what parents I can choose puppy for work too. In this case is not important if parents have exams or no.
I know a few czech wolfdogs with some exams. And I know, it is not dog for work. They work not with pleasure. It is not my favorite parent for working puppy. For me is not important what exams I see on the wolfdog pages. For me is important what I know about character of dog.
Sorry, maybe it is not what you want to hear, but it is what I can see in my state. Because I know population of wolfdogs here ( it is not much wolfdogs :D ) and I know much wolfdogs almost personally :D

Hi, I am Alessio the owner of Sky I apologize me for the delay in the answers, but I had the broken computer!!!!

The line of blood is very important, with Sky we have been fortunate, to the beginning we wanted a dog to do alone expo, later after sometime interest she is begun to my wife for the job with the dog and Sky he has followed her footstep footstep.
Every time that we go to try new figuranti they always confirm us hisimprovements and to us there riempie of satisfaction, here in italia people found him on the abilities of the German shepherds and when they see to work Sky they stay I surprised by what succeeds in doing.

However the result of gotten Sky IPO1 (hope soon in IPO2)va added by the fact that my Wife was the first dog that trained, his first dog!!! And that Sky has reached the solos obbettievo 2 years.

Besides that it doesn't spoil it is never also a dog that respects the standard of the race.

My give parts it is said Good and beautiful, thing to want more?

You greet Alessio

Thanks to Massimo

Thank you all for your opinions. We have for one week the englih girlfriend of my son with her mother in our house, so I not much time to read and write here.

I am very glad, Hanka, that you confirm me, that there is/are working lines of CSW. And I agree with you that a dog doesn´t need a proof with examn that he/she is a good worker! Sure it makes it much more easier to proof. But people who know what a working dog should be able to do now what working dogs are.

In germany I think people were a bit surprised that I brought them in in this theme. Some people even breeders discuss this theme although they didn´t know really what a dog must be able to do an IPO 1. They don´t know that there must be pass an obedience part, Fährte (sorry nose part..) and of course the part of saving, hope you understand what I mean.

Sure doing sledgedog sports or agility is workinig too and as Hanka wrote a dog who likes to work likes to work in every different work or sport no matter what it is.

And thanks Massimo for confirming the working ablities of Api.

I guess Kerstin wrote it, an experienced dog owner knows the difference between a dog who likes to work and who does it with joy and fun and a dog who does it but you need much more time and he does it without any fun. That is the difference.

And if you mate one dog who likes to work with another one you can be sure that from a litter with let us say 8 puppies 5-6 will love to work and 2 not. In comparison to a litter from a none working line you will have probably 2 puppies who like to work and 6 who looking at you and "say" you mean me???? I should work???? You make fun of me!!!!

Bye for now

Christian

Nebulosa, a working dog should be too a show dog. doing shows is one part of work. And of course a working dog too must have all to pass the standard. And most of them have a better standard than an only show dog because for example they must be able to go (run) nice with good legs, sorry missing the real word for gangwerk.

That's right! :D
But here enter one problem, that's not only in the CzW but in all working breed dogs, some breeders that have ugly dogs means that they are ugly because appearence isn't important for a working dog, they use the work as excuse for continue breeding dogs out of the standard, and put the dogs in work too because they isn't able to get titles in show, no matter for then if the dog like or not work ( one caracteristic of a working dog is like work) important for they is the working titles.

I know what you mean. Maybe you know that I have a briard male too. He is a stud breeding male and like to work. I did lots of shows and have briard friends in belgium, holland, czechie, italy and germany. I know that some people put their not so nice looking briards in the working class, ok they have a title as a working dog, sure, but in this way they like to get nice show titles as cacib and cac. But the judges look for standard. They don´t get presents.

Christian

Why do you mention Lorenz Farouk as working dog. Having Ambra as a mother makes a dog a working dog? As far as I know Lorenz Farouk has good character but doesn't have any passed exams. We can't base only on "good character" when calling some bloodline a working line.

I will keep my opinion that there are no real working lines in the breed. As a working line I would understand a line in which the extraordinary character is being inherited by the offsprings of these dogs and there are proofs that the character is genetically better than in other lines. What I can agree about that there are specific dogs which gave better characters, their offspring has also good characters. But good character for me is just typical feature and not something extraordinary. Shortly said: there are lines with typical (according standard) and untypical characters. For a line to become a "working line" I would like to see wolfdogs which are not just trainable but ones that have real drive for work. And I'm not talking about single cases but whole line with working exams passed on higher levels.

As for Hasso being the father of working line: I understand that people who own wolfdogs that have Hasso in their pedigree will promote him as a founder of a working line because at the same time their dogs become "woldogs from THE working line" ;) Breeders are also very often promoting the same way - having puppies from "working line" is not a bad thing even when it's just a marketing talk ;) But there are many facts that will show that Hasso besides being one of a few wolfdogs with IPO3 doesn't pass the super working abilities on his offsprings. First of all we should think over whether Hasso had any EXCEPTIONAL working abilities which he could pass over or maybe he was just an ordinary wolfdog with typical, stable character and an owner having lots of free time spending it on training Hasso? I know it took Hasso many years to pass IPO3 exam, the training with Hasso was a way of spending free time for Mr. Pudil. The question is: what would your wolfdog achieve if you would spend the same amount of time on training? If the dog gets up to IPO3 will it automatically become founder of working line and if only IPO2 then it will not be a working line dog? :) There are too many factors that influence achieved exams (work of the owner being the major factor).

OK. Now let's look at the offsprings of Hasso to check whether we can say that they have better working abilities than other wolfdogs. According to the database there are 759 wolfdogs that have Hasso in their pedigree. You named a few with passed exams. How does it correspond to these 759 wolfdogs? Mentioned dogs make less than one percent of all offsprings of Hasso. Besides some of these dogs have Hasso in further generation and saying that Hasso is responsible for the training achievements of the specific dog is like saying that the wolfdog got IPO1 because he has Bojar, great working german shepherd dog, in tenth generation ;)

No, in the first case we have an evident dog with correct, typical character. It's not my fault that some judges or breeders promote shy dogs. Only because the typical dog has IPO3 dog in 3rd generation doesn't make his bloodline a working line. If we go in this direction then we can go further. ALL WORKING DOGS have Rep z Pohranicni straze in their pedigree. Does it mean Rep is founder of a working line? ;)

Nice examples. But are you sure these dogs achieved these exams because they had Hasso in their pedigree? Ira and Irma are daughters of Hasso BUT they are also daughters of Abra z Molu which got ZVV2 (comparable with IPO2). Abra herself is daughter of Gar z Rosikova (ZM, ZVV1, ZPU, ZZP1, ZLP1, ZVV2, VZ 100 km) and Asta z Tondova (ZM, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZUP). But yet you are saying that Irma and Ira are working dogs because of Hasso whoes parents have .... one ZOP.

Irma is also not a perfect example of working dog. She makes beautiful obedience and agility but at the same time she has very strong reaction on gun shot and because of it she will never pass BH or IPO.

Kelt z Molu is also not a best example. Everybody who saw Kelt during work and his mother Ajbix will have no doubts that Kelt inherited character from his mother. The difference is that she doesn't have IPO3 like Hasso but I'm sure she could get it if only Monika would have more time to train her and had such aspiration. Monika herself was saying that Ajbix works like a German Shepherd Dog. And exactly such type of work makes Kelt so good working CzW (many people say the best in CZ).

Upstream Ariminnnum has very nice character but everybody knows that Aron Maly Bysterec, father of Upstream, gives such specific stable characters to his offsprings. I'm sure Mirka, owner of Mery Kysucka hvezda (daughter of Aron) or Saschia, owner of Frei Maly Bysterec (also daughter of Aron) will agree with me. It doesn't have to be contribution of Hasso. And there are much more offsprings of Aron with good, stable character and everybody who saw him working on sleeve during the camp in Slovakia will admit that Upstream is working like her father. I know that some people will never admit that there are Slovakian CzWs with nice character but it is so.

Yes. We are talking about dog with 759 offsprings. Naming a few with passed exams can be considered only as a coincidence.

But when it comes to Hasso. I saw Hasso offsprings in first generation and many of them were very shy. It's visible in the database. I didn't saw any of the puppies of Aretha Hanka z Vlasatic. From the litter of Doubravka I saw one dog: Fany. Their owners said to people many times that the dog doesn't cooperate with them and is hard to train (not shy) and it was also very good visible. From the litter of Cira Volani rodu I saw 6 dogs: Agar - he was given to dog specialist because of shy character in order to prepare him for bonitation, Asta was shy, Bad Vlci nadeje also shy (Oc and P5 from bonitation), Beatris is living in Poland and even now she is not able to calm down in the ring - she's always scared and Bianka - disqualication during bonitation because of character. And I'm talking about dogs which I saw on my own eyes.


I'm not denying that there are bloodlines with better or worser characters but I'm against calling some lines a "working line" just because there is a IPO3 dog in x-generation or because the dogs have good, stable character. Typical character is a MUST and not something extraordinary. We can talk about bloodlines with typical or untypical characters and not about working or useless lines. Don't forget that the breed is defined as working breed so when you're saying that some line is a "working line" you're talking about "super working dogs" ;) I can't say that offsprings of my dog will be a part of working line just because I was able to socialize my dog in the way that he shows no shyness ;)

nice discussion Przemek.
Just a couple of comments:
I'm good in maths and statistics too.
On a mathematical point of view, considering dogs and offspring, NO WORKING LINE EXISTS TODAY.
I agree.
I do not own any son of hasso or hero so I am not one of those promoting them.
I leave Marketing and Mass Mediatic publicity or Mass Puppy production to expert breeders and pc users, there are many aren't there? ... :wink:
I would just like people around to reflect on a couple of points:
a dog with no working results not necessarily means he is not a "possible" working dog, because this would be valid only if they receive the same socialization and training so it's obvious that's not possible.
statistics and percentages would be useless.
But we can make an "opposite" calculation: how many dogs have ipo or equivalent today? does any of them have the same percentage of DIRECT SONS like Hasso in all the history of wolfdogs?
I cannot make this calculation as I do not have direct access to your database.
3/34=8.8%, and 34 is an interesting population (if it was 1 ipo out of 2 puppies number would NOT be significant).
Is this a simple coincidence?
Maybe, maybe Hasso was so lucky that they always mated him with females with very good working bloodline, and didn't put any "working" blood himself, maybe it's a coincidence as you say.
I personally don't think so.
Big male studs (ex.Milo/Cutt/Clover/Charon/etc.) have same or similar coincidences with more than one direct son IPO?
I am curious to know.
Massimo

HI all, I would like to add my small amount of water to this sea ;o) as Przemek mentioned my Frei.

I have a feeling there might be another bias when considering some dog providing "working line". Here is hypothetical situation:

There is a stud dog with IPO3 named X. There is another stud dog without IPO3 (because his owner does not give a damn about exams) with very similar good character as X, named Y.

There is a potential buyer, who wants for some reason to have a working dog and he wants CsV (not GS or BS or border collie etc.). He decides to buy puppy after X, because X has exam and his owner propagates him as working line founder. The puppy has a good character and his owner is able to make exams with it.

There is another buyer who doesn't give a damn about exams, just wants a good character wolfdog, and as the puppies of Y are slightly cheaper than those of X, he takes puppy from Y. The puppy has also good character but the owner teaches it basic obedience and funny tricks for his children.

Let's say this happes several times with puppies after X and Y in several generations. Let's say that every time the breeders of both "lines" are very responsible and choose very precisely mate for their dog, so the character remains very good for several generations. In the end, we would have two lines - one "working" line, where every generation has at least one IPO dog, while the second line has no exams or only minor ones. But the character is very similar, it all depended only on choices of the owners!

So what I want to say by my example? If you have breed which is not "typical" working breed - typical meaning that people who want working dog prefer this breed over others, if this breed is relatively minor in number of dogs and therefore most of dogs are relatives in fifth generation, then there is quite a little probability of creating working lines if you want to avoid inbreeding (which is certainly not good for good character). You have working pseudo lines created by psychology of people. This does not mean that the dogs are not good working dogs. it means only that they are more used for making exams. Real working line could be established by separating it from other, non-working lines, but that would mean not only that it could include only exam-making dogs, but also that those dogs used should not be used in the reminder of the gene pool. And in working breed you don't want to avoid using good dogs in breeding. And I think good character is wanted by most people, not only by those who want to make exams.

This is my opinion only, so if you don't agree I have no problem with it, it is just gut feeling. And to comment on Frei Maly Bysterec, daugter of Aron Maly Bysterec - if she was owned by another kind of person she would be material for working exams I think.

As the owner of Mery Kysucka hviezda, I might slightly disagree with you Przemek. I consider Mery to be very hard to train, because even that she understands many commands and learns rather quick, it is very difficult to get her attention and she hardly concentrates on what she does. She is restless and gets easily excited by minor things into such amount, that she´s not controlling herself. Mery is fourth wolfdog, who ever lived with me and I honestly find her the most difficult and demanding.
If I ever found any drive in her, then it would be drive for food.

If Monika´s Upstream has the same character (which I cannot say, cause I never really saw the dog), then I can only congratulate her on being excellent trainer to manage such a dog well.

But it is also possible, as Saschia says, that Mery with different owner would behave better and be able to pass exams. I still intend to pass some exams with her, but I do not think it would ever be something like IPO.

One of reasons also is, that Mery´s hips are in way bad shape. Which is a trait, that I believe Aron Maly Bysterec gives very succesfully - dysplasia. (just see Aron´s offsprings etc.)

It is exactly what I mean. Most of the CzWs has potential and it's only a matter of the owner what he will do with it. But everybody is saying about working line of Hasso but noone mentioned "working lines" of Milo Ruskov dvor, Grey wolf z Molu Es, Aron Maly Bysterec, Ajbix Mrazive ticho, Argos Mrazive ticho or Ali Reolup which gave mostly much better characters then Hasso. So it is the reason why it makes me laugh when I hear about working line of Hasso.

Yes. Fast example:
Asta z Tondova - 23 offsprings from which 5 has at least ZVV1 - it makes 5/23 = 21,74%

However it's still not the point. In the times when Asta was having puppies there were much bigger interest in training with wolfdogs. Many people did something with their dogs. They didn't buy their wolfdogs as family pets.

What I cannot deny is that usually a wolfdog with higher amount of passed exams can have more offsprings with exams. BUT.... in 99% of cases it is nothing more than self-fulfilling prophecy: people looking for a puppy for work are looking on the training results of the parents and are buying the puppy because they want to train and pass exams. So they usually start to train the dog faster than people who bought their puppy not for work. This is the reason why a dog with IPO can have more offsprings with passed exams. But from here there is a far way to genetical inheritage - the owners of such puppies work harder and not that the puppies are better in character (of course we are talking in general).

And I mentioned 6 wolfdogs that were shy (and I mean really scared dogs not just less couriagous) - 6/34 = 17,64%. I bet that this percentage is also higher than in many other lines. So we have theoretically a chance of 8% that the offspring of Hasso will have IPO and 17% that it will shy and will pass no exams ;)

Don't we have equality of rights? What about females? Why do you say that the character is inherited only from the father side?


You can find dogs with IPO in the countries where people do protection work. 99% of all dogs with IPO and similar are Czech CzWs because you can train protection and obedience in almost every village there. In other countries people do mostly obedience. Hasso was bred in Czech Republic, most of his offsprings stayed in Czech hands, also Kelt, Argos, Ajbix, Hero are all dogs owned by Czech people. They have very good conditions there to train protection work. There are no problems with doing protection with wolfdog like in Holland or France where protection work with CzW is forbidden. It doesn't mean that there are no wolfdogs with good character that could be "working dogs" there. Look at the percentage of dogs with exams in the countries. If we count it then Italy will have one of the lowest number of working dogs compared to the population (single cases vs 1500 wolfdogs). Do you want to say that dogs in Italy are useless for work because the percentage is low? I think it mostly because people aren't interested in training.

So because there are very few people working with their dogs and people working professionaly are even less we can't say anything about working lines based on exams. It just says that the owners do something with their dog.

Massimo, don't take me wrong. I don't want to hurt any breeders or dogs. In the fact I should be one of the first people which should shout: "yes, there are working lines. I have working dogs, I have working lines, I breed working puppies" because we would profit the most from such story. I and Margo made with our dogs over 30 exams, took part several times part in competitions (not only for CzWs) and the percentage of pups from our kennel which have some exams is higher than by many other breeders. Maybe that is the reason why I see how big influence on working dogs has an "working owner". In most cases it's a credit for the owner not for the extraordinary working genetics.

I was talking about stable character and not about trainability of Arons pups. But as for dogs being hard to train then I think it's a normal that dogs with higher potential are usually harder to manage. Belgian Shepherds are know to be perfect and very efficient in work but they are hard to train and that is the reason why still German Shepherds are more popular - average but easier to train.

And there are no doubts that Monika has a very long experience in training with dogs (she achieved ZVV2 with her Asta a long time ago) and she can get a lot more from a wolfdog than many of CzW owners. The same is about Ira and her owner, Vaclav Zeisek who is professional trainer. Ira in other hands maybe wouldn't pass any exams (she has IPO2 now).

I think this belongs to another topic - I don't want to make advertisement for Aron being the best stud dog and if we want to talk about inheritage of displasia we should start another topic. I'm just talking about character and I saw many offsprings of Aron - almost all of them with very nice character. What I can't say about Hasso offsprings.

Fantastic Przemek! I have to remember this, as an excellent excuse, when I have to once again explain to somebody, why my dog behaves like idiot. :) I wonder if they will believe me, though.

Anyways, regarding dysplasia, it is definatelly off-topic here, I know. I mentioned only as we were discussing here, what traits Aron passes to his offsprings.

The working wolfdogs I know behave sometimes like idiots - anyway it's hard to call them nice family dogs. These dogs are very often hard dogs, self confident, very dominant and behave like on drugs (very active) ;)

It's not completely off-topic because health and especially the hips have big influence on working abilities. If the dog has HD we can forget about training with him IPO because there is a lot of running and jumping. But I wanted to focus more on character.

Nice comments and discussion. From my point of view Prezemek you see it to small. Please compare the breed csw with other working breeds. How many real working lines you will find there?
And I think you cannot say only because dogs have IPO 3 (or IPO 2) that they are working lines. Saschia had a good example. If everything is compareable between dog X and Y from my point of view sure it could be a working line. I don´t make it on exams. The point is, a puppy buyer who gets an working dog will have easier problems with a lets called nervous dog because he is everytime looking at you and asking: ok, what we gonna do next? A family or only show dog will be more quiet. And that is the difference to make from my opinion.

And for a puppy buyer it is more easy to find out that he will get a working dog or a family/show dog when he sees that the working dog has passed exams.

Przemek, you cannot make it on Hasso only. You have to look at the females too. I think you know it better than me, that there are breeders who look for mating dogs where they know that they have working potential. Looking at your breed I see that you and Margo are looking more for "important" let us say old csw bloodlines and not for working lines. Now a days one can say maybe you founded a new working line, because of your first three litters there are at least 3 puppies with exams if I remember right.

And of course a dog who is doing obidience and agility well is too a working dog. I know lots of dogs who are not able to do agility for example even so they have experienced dog owners and they tried the same like me to do agility. They have no fun to do it. These means the working dog does working because he wants to do it and not because his handler the human being wants to do it. And this is the big difference! And therefore you don´t need to pass exams! As Saschia wrote, Frey would be able to work.

In germany there is no more a shot by passing the BH in part A - obidience - and B - social part -.

Sure I accept all your opinions. It is/was an interesting discussion. Thank you all for this.

christian

Christian I think that you are saying the same thing as Przemek but in different words. But:

But our breed is very small compared to those typical working breeds as the German Shepherds or Malinois. If they have few real working lines, how can we have at least one, especially if we want to avoid inbreeding? I am not really competent in this field but it seems to me that at least GS have very different working and showing lines, but it is a very popular breed with loads of breeders and loads of people who consider them for work, and with loads of even official organizations which select dogs for working abilities very firmly (like police, custom, etc.).

The CsW were selected very firmly by army during their creation and I think this is the reason it was able to remain as a working breed after "changing hands" to civilists, when the exams were not required for breeding of an animal.

Ok so I brign it down, there is no working line during these days, maybe in future. But if someone will look for a working dog, he will find bloodlines, where the dogs prooved over 4 generations that they are able to work and/bcause breeders look for mating to dogs which are both able to work. Can we say so?

And Prezemek, Hasso is one example, sure there are differnt ohter dogs.

Saschia I even have a briard male stud dog. He is a great working dog, but I did only BH. But we do bikejöring world- and german Championship. He is doing very well sleeve and of course Agility. His mother comes out of Tschje and is international Champion and has IPO 1,2. His fahter is only showdog, but worldchampion in beauty in 2001. But he got the working genes from his mother. He is crazy for working. And in the breed of the briards there are showlines and working lines. I know lots of Briards who would show you their finger if you wanted to do agility.

Mirka, that is for sure, I see it like Przemek, working dogs are crazy dogs, are difficult to manage, as I wrote, they are always looking ok, what we are going to do next!

christian

Ok, I have to explain to my dog then, that she is suppose to look what we are going to do next. Because she does not give a damn!
The only thing she looks for, is food.

Ok let's stop playing with numbers, i know I started in the first place :wink:
Asta is an excellent example of what I mean, but I doubt you can find many many others...
The example of shyness i don't think fits because from all sons of Hasso you mention only 6 of the sons made with Cira Volani rodu, and i honestly wouldn't compare shyness (present in a EXTREEMLY HIGH percentage of CSW...) with an Ipo1..


Well that's the only thing I am trying to say.
If I wanted to work with a dog, I would surely take a pup from (or from a very near offspring of) one of these dogs:
Asta, Ajbix, Kelt, Argos, Hero, Hasso, Upstream...etc.
I wouldn't personally choose a son of others if that was my intention. Maybe your're right, maybe it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy, I want a working dog, i take a hypothetic working line, i work hard and i contribute to make a working line so.
it's a matter of choice.
I know what I would choose..and I surely know WHAT PARENTS i would NEVER CHOOSE if wanted to work with a csw....(I could make many examples ...)


of course but obviously it's easier for a male to make more puppies in his lifespan than a female (in the list i mentioned before there are 3 females...)

Of course at the end Saschia's example is and must be considered, and is repeating the same as said both by Przemek and myself before: NO exams doesn't necessarily mean No good for working, just that exams is a proof that "no exams" cannot give, and also that a big contribution to so called working lines is given by the owners...

You know people, you make me feel that good working dogs are just addicts with good character background (not cowards, not aggressors).

And of course my stupid mind made following pictures for me (I hope you'll find them funny, if not scientificaly correct):

1) Non-working dog: "You want me to sit? Well *** you, I got this bone here needs hiding."

2) Workable dog (my previous - Kei): "You want me to sit? Well what's in it for me? A yummy? OK, I'll sit! Now give it to me!"

3) Material for working dog (my Frei): "You want me to sit? OK, I sit, will there be something good? Oh, you are pleased with me, I'm glad... Can we play now?"

4) Working addict: "Yeah I sit! What next? Quick, tell something!"

good character? Oh I think there are working dogs without good character. And someone mentionted it, working dogs could be dominant, aggressiv, powerful be. From my point of view you will find the same amount of good and bad character dogs in "normal" dogs and in working dogs. It depends on the gene and on the way they are raised up from puppy.

Christian

:cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Saschia you make me die!!!

I personally think that only if
1. a really huge number of CSVs (preferably all of them ;) ) were trained with the same methods, by the same people, who would devote more or less the same amount of time to their training
2. later the effects were measured in the same way, by the same judges in similar conditions
3. the results were objectively compared with statistical methods

we could honestly start making generalisations, comparisons and speak of working and non-working lines.

Of course the above procedure is not feasible and thus I agree with Przemek and others....

In fact theoretically every CSV should possess SOME working potential and it's up to the owner and other circumstances and coincidences if these abilites would be brought up or not.

E.g. it's like playing the instrument: nobody knows how many people from those we pass in the street might become top musicians IF the parents bothered to send them to music schools! On the other hand many of those who play in orchestras send their kids to music schools and the profession is passed on to younger generations, although none of them will ever become a Mozart. :mrgreen:

This my Tina at home :twisted: :cheesy:

This is Tina in a quarry acting a geologist companion (before she retired ;)) She never took any formal exams but for years teams of reserchers relied on her situation judgements during the field work, especially when their safety was concerned.

Would you call her a working dog or not? :confused2

Rona - I personally call working dog every dog which at request from its owner does thing it would not do on its own accord and is able to do them for some period of time (half-hour to day to week, depend on type of work etc.)

So, if Tina just ran around and people could judge the situation based on her normal behavior, then she was not working. But if she responded to a command of sort, then she was working.

In my opinion wolfdog running along a bike at stable speed is working, while poodle fetching a ball for an hour might be just playing. Wolfdog running with it master without a leash stoppping for time and then running closer again is not working, while wolfdog running with its master at its master's speed is working. But this is again something for different discussion topic.

WOW - great topic... :)

Sorry, but I do not see that the problem was only with the dogs Hasso x Cira - I know even more dogs from Hasso's line than Przemek. Przemek mentioned one dog from the litter Hasso x Doubravka. Not shy but there was NO working interest by this dog... And the owners started to train their dog already when they took it home - they visited training field FREQUENTLY (because they had working HASSO puppy of course). Without any result.... At the age of 2 years the dog was not even able to pass the basic obedience exam... so the owners gave up...
From the litter Hasso x Ambra one dog is REALLY working dog (Ira), one is shy and one has serious reaction on shooting.
About Hasso x Cira Przemek already wrote everything...
The only mating - Hasso x Ajbix - gave good characters but not thanks to Hasso but thanks to Ajbix. Ajbix has VERY specific character and everyone who knows her will confirm Kelt is 100% mother in the look and character...

Anyway we have funny situation in Poland which shows the whole problem - people which are looking for a puppy with NICE and "working" character check first if there is NO Hasso in the pedigree... ;) Funny but I'm not joking because if you will visit some dog shows here one day and you will see some of the dogs lying scared on the ground in the ring, hiding behind their owners you will almost for sure see offspring of our polish "Hasso working line"....


Anyway - Hasso had 6 litters. One (with Aretha Hanka z Vlasatic) "disappeared". Puppies from 4 matings (with 3 females) have pretty high number of VERY shy dogs. Only one litter have good characters... Sorry but speaking in this case about exceptional working blood and working line is..... senseless.

Before I bought my first CzW I always owned German Shepherd Dogs.... It is still pretty easy to find very good working dogs of this breed. I "switched" to CzW because of their HEALTH, CHARACTER and LOOK. 3 important things to me...And because of this:

- I would not buy a puppy of 4 dogs listed by you because their puppies have more similar characteristics with shepherds than wolves. And if I would like a good working dog which also LOOKS like shepherd dog I would not buy a CzW but stay by German Shepherd Dogs.... Simply said: a dog which DO NOT look like Czechoslovakian Wolfdog according the breed standard (it means which is not WOLFISH) is not for me a TYPICAL Czechoslovakian Wolfdog EVEN if such dogs is nice working dog.

- I would not buy a puppy of 1 more dog listed by you because of visibile hips problems by the offsprings. I do not own GSD anymore because I don't want to have a dog which is "invalid". If a dogs have great character but problems with the hips his great character is for nothing because such dog will be NEVER good material for working dog. I know 2 CzWs with super character which already passed some important exams but the owners had to stop to work with them because the dogs got problems to jump and to move...

If I would look for a puppy I will take into consideration ONLY 2 dogs from your list and few more from my own list which "guarantee" not only good CHARACTER but also TYPICAL look for this breed and famous great HEALTH... For sure you will agree with me that it make no sense to buy a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog which LOOKS like GSD, which has CHARACTER like GSD and which have bad HEALTH like GSD.... :D

Yes, you are right... "Working dog" is great thing but only if it is owned by a person which has enough TIME, WILL and EXPERIENCE to handle such dog... I know how many serious problems had some of the owners of dogs listed here... And some of them still have problems even if the dogs passed many exams...

But there is also another thing which was not mentioned here (maybe a little bit by Saschia). What is a WORKING CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG?
Is working CzW dog which has great herding instinct and is working with the herd?
Is working CzW dog which has so lazy and dominant character which make him great guard dog (watch dog)?
Is working CzW dog which behaves like GSD and has character like GSD?
Is working CzW dog which love to pull things and works as sled dog?

NO. NONE of these dogs are good working Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs because they make something else as Hartl's idea for this breed....

Look on the standard: typical CzW must be "lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions". It means FAST, QUICK, RESISTANT, ACTIVE. Many of the dogs which were listed as "nice working dogs" are HEAVY and LAZY. They have stable characters but are they typical as Wolfdogs? Can a dog which has problems to pass 40km run because he is too heavy to run so long distances be called WORKING CzW even if it has IPO1?

Another thing: Hartl was always saying that CzW were made for tracking work. It was THEIR domain where CzW were unbeatable. So I would say the working line of CzW should be made of dogs which are FAST and ACTIVE and on the same time which have great "nose". So for me there is 1 really WORKING CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG (not just "working dog") according to the exams which the dog passed: Hero od Úhoště that passed IPO-FH2 and took part (with nice results) in national tracking dogs championship....

A CzW can be 3) and 4) on the same time... 3 when the dog makes something what it does not like to do. And 4 when it makes his favourite exercises... :)

I think it is the most important thing which was written here - it is exactly what also Przemek wrote... We can not compare dogs which owners train with them and dogs which owners do nothing because in the first case we will get so called "working line" and in second "non-working line" EVEN if the dogs from the second group will have much better character than from the first group... There are too many factors which have HUGE influence on the character of the dog and his results by training...

Like Saschie wrote:
Working addict: "Yeah I sit! What next? Quick, tell something

It is my female Ko-ko. But I know, she is a copy of Hasso. She is the same nervous type. When she must be on one place and sit or stay, she cries very much uííí uííí uííí. Like Hasso.
Whe she do obedience, she looks into my eyes and she tells me: what else I can do for you? I do it very quickly, tell me some direct, quickly.
I don´t know, what means Kamil about his male Kelt, but my Kony is 100% Hasso.

Hi, i have one question for Hanka. You living in Czech republik, in Your land is very more exams, but You not have exams with dog, and if i will buy puppie from work (etc sport) i see to first all litter from parents with exams, and sory but You kennel in this case not be in me list.

If i living in Czech and see Your dogs real, maybe i say-this is very good dogs and hes like me and i will have pupps from this dogs, but i living in other country and not have posible this make.

I think: say "i have very good working linie or i have working dog" others exam is ...is stupid, but this is only worts and he not have proofs.

this is me think about this situacion.

regards

p.s. i not have bad idea or minds about Your dogs :wink:

....just coincidence.... pure coincidence.... ko-ko's good part comes from Ajbix!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
massimo

Massimo please don't be angry BUT please tell me how can we "evaluate" Ko-ko's working abilities? I never saw her on the training place working, for me she look like typical "Bixi" (Ajbix). Maybe it is true what Hanka says but is she "working blood of Hasso"? How we can judge it if so far Ko-ko do not passed ANY exams - how can we see if she will really work so good? Maybe she will be TOO crazy to pass IPO? Nobody knows - there are no proves... So far we have only WORDS - nothing more... :roll:

Hanka writes Ko-ko is nervous type. I have daughter of Ajbix (NO Hasso blood inside the pedigree) - also crazy, nervous and also crying when we go away she can not wokr... When I see Merry Bell I see also Bixi working (but also Kelt or Hoky).... ALL of them had the same HIGH energy for work although Hoky, Ajbix and Merry Bell have nothing to do with Hasso... 8)

Now I really feel I have to say something. I think that Hanka knows her dog well, and probably she has experiences with wolfdogs enough, to be able to tell if her Koko is working dog or not.
If she can proove it by passing exams, is different thing. But we all know, what kind of dogs we have at home and if we are honest to ourselves and to the others, we can say if we have dogs keen in working, or not.
And on the contrary, I know dogs that have passed exams, maybe many, but never showed any drive for working and if they did not have consistent, patient owners, they´d never pass anything. Should I call those dogs working dogs?


About "only words". Yes, you cannot maybe evaluate dogs working abilities without working test, as much as you cannot evaluate or justify breeding on dog without bonitation. You can say milion times (and I am not speaking about you or any concrete breeder), that a dog is looking fine, he´s got titles and he´s been judged by a good judge who said the dog was looking great. But he has no bonitation and .. so far we have only WORDS.

This might be again considered off-topic, but as Daiva says, she´d not get future working puppy from dogs, which don´t have exams, yet the owner claims them to have drive for working...well. I would NOT get any CSW puppy for any purpose from parents where one dog is not bonitated, even if I was told hundred times how great the parents were and no matter on how many titles they had. :roll:

Mirka but I still think we need MUCH more to say about one dog "I have working dog". It is not against Hanka but when we will say that "the words of the owner are enough because the owner KNOWS his/her own dog" then we will get 99% of working CzWs because EVERY owner will say the same...
I saw "working dogs" with exams and without them, I can show you dogs which are EXTREMLY shy but the owner will fight to the end saing he has "working dog" with great stable character and some exams passed.

So do you think the "words" are really enough?

The second thing - how can we judge HOW the dog will make IPO3 if we will NEVER see the dog working on such lever? We can not play faires... 8) If the dog has stable character and like to cooperate - for me it is NOT enough for being "working dog".... because it is enough only to say it is "typical CzW"....

No... And it is my point of view... :) I know many dogs which passed many exams ONLY thanks to the HARD WORK OF THEIR OWNERS. And you can see some of them are called here not only "working dogs" but also founders of working lines... 8)

Is it not the same? Look on some judges which make some bonitations.... :roll: So for me NOTHING counts really... :) I saw VERY untypical CzWs (GSD like) which get (also in CZ) the perfect bonitation code. Can we tell a CzW is typical ONLY because it passed the bonitation? I saw also shy dogs which passed the exams. Can we call them "working"?
So good bonitation will not make a dog typical and passed exam will not make a dog a working dog...

In this case I will NEVER buy a puppy from some P1 bonitated dogs because they are not really CzW-looking (not typical Wolfdogs). And I will also not buy a puppy from some so called working lines because they are really not working... ;)

It is so and it was always so - the main thing is to know the reality... To SEE the dogs with the own eyes, to see them working, to see their life and the influence on the character.. Only on this case we can "evaluate" a line or a dog... And bonitation, show results, working exams can be easily manipulated...

Right, that is true. If this was said at the beginning, this thread would not need 3 pages. But honestly, I think bonitations matter, as well as the exams. It prooves something about the honesty and interest of the owner (or the breeder) in the breed. And that matters to me too.

Hi, Mirka,

You mean my litter? I think both parents have much more than only bonitation results. my female won last year the world dog show in Poznan and Harka was many times judged by slovakian and czech judges. the most important. she made bonitation in slovakia. and has also some exams.
the father was judged during the most important shows in slovakia. and he has youth bonitation with perfect descriprion. he has some exams and took part with good result in nationat obedience competitions.

it is much more than simple litter where the parents has only the bonitation and no exams and no titles. because exams show the working character and titles the standard looking.

If the sire is so great, I am sure the male could pass the bonitation, too. But he did not, so, nothing against your litter, but it is simply NOT a litter from where I would get a puppy.

Btw. youth bonitation does not exist. Only youth PRESENTATION, which is exactly that - presentation of a young dog. The Slovaks don´t even give code to the dog at that time. Description is nice, but we all know, it is does not guarantee anything, the dog is still growing, many things can change. I do not have to explain that to you.

And sorry, but the titles do not show ANYTHING at all. There are dogs who should have them, but won´t get them because their owners don´t have the right connections, or the judges does not know what they are doing. And there are dogs, who should not get titles, and yet they get them.. for the very same reasons. Yes, there are also titles given to the right dogs by the right judges. But still a title is no guarantee of anything to me.

And guys, was not this all a bit off topic? ;)

Hello !Wolfin" :D ,
I was all life with my dogs on training area.All my dogs had much exams, I went to dograces. But now is for me different situation. Now I have family, children and my "hierarchy of values" is different. So, I prefer actions, where we can be all family. But it is not to be every weekend on training area with dogs. It is for example mushing with all family on the mountains, long tripes with all my dogs and with my family on the mountains, weekends in nature under tant . I can be there with dogs and all family too. I know, I have at home one wolfdog, who loves training and other "normal" :wink: wolfdogs. I don´t different between them. And Kony is female of my daughter. Now I prefer sporttraining like hobby for us. Maybe, in the future, when children will be adult, I can bring back to normal sporttraining. But now, it is not possible. Because if I want do it to 100%, I must have much free time for it.

Just some comments about this short off topic.

Hip x rays, Bonitations, pedigrees, working exams.
They are all very important for the breed but an INTELLIGENT and SERIOUS person judges not only by the paper he sees but by the real facts which accompany a dog and an owner.
If you do not trust an xray made in poland or a bonitation made in Italy or a working exam made in slovakia you are of course free to do it.
From one point of view all exams and certificates and beauty results should be a very importatn reference for those who are interested in a certain dog, but again, this does not necessarily mean that paper and certificates make a dog better than another.
A dog can be beautiful without being champion just because the owner is not interested in shows. A dog "could" be a working dog and no working exams just because the owner has no time to dedicate to him. A dog could be an excellent breeding dog but no bonitation because the owner lives in south of spain and has real serious difficulties to reach places were bonitations are held. A dog could could be the healthiest dog in the world but with no HD xrays because the owner is not interested in breeding.
Of course of all the things mentioned, we could apply the absolute OPPOSITE meaning.
Best way to know things is to see them personally, it helps a lot!
For example: If somebody does NOT trust my dog's HD results made in Italy just ask me, I can give a copy of xrays so you can see for yourself.
;-)
massimo

I agree with who say :"There are working owners, not working dogs" :fingers1

I own two good dogs, with well balance-self confident character, but I really have small time to train them...they maybe could be really "working dog" but till now they make only some easy exams.

Obviously with some very shy csw you can't do nothing, apart running 100km...so running for km and km it's not a prove of typical csw character, i think.

yes, yes, yes:)
An exam of running 100 km can ONLY show us that our CSV has a perfect body building :)


My CSV- Cheitan practises obedience, he’s passed Polish exams BUT I know that working with CSV is not as easy as working with a GSD:) A lot of Polish coaches say: "training a CSV? It’s mission impossible!" :D They are very surprised when a CSV passes an exam or gets good results in competitions. This shows (despite the quantity aspect) that CSV is not such a working breed as e.g. border collie :)

Our friends –Joanna with Dewi train with us in the same school. I can easily see differences between the two dogs: Dewi catches new things very quickly and is ahead of Chey. It’s obvious that she has a better natural training potential. However, later Chey makes up for it with his diligence and in effect the results are similar. If I were to chose a dog for serious work I’d definitely chose Dewi who takes after her mother, Merry Bell - Margo mentioned earlier how much she loved working.
But I’d never say that any of these dogs belong to a “working line”. What can be just observed is that dogs from certain lines have more repeatable characters. But that’s all.


Gaga

I am sorry to say but I cannot understand that it seems to me that here are people who are not able to see the difference between working dog and show/family dog. Of course a working dog can be too a family dog. So if you give me 10 dogs and say, ok go on and tell me who is a working dog. I can tell you that it is no problem to find out really fast.

And please tell me why then if there are no wolrking lines even csw can start in the working class in shows? The answer, because there are working owners.... Ha Ha Ha. What kind of funny. Sure you can work with every dog, but please why some of you cannot understand, that it is a big difference to have a dog which learns much more easier and faster than another dog. And please why are there are a few breeds which are typicall working dogs. What do they do what a csw could not do? It does not depend on how good he makes it. It depends how fast he makes it and if the dog has fun to do this work. We are not in school.

And so some of you mentioned it they know where to go to get a working csw. Me too. And why could we say this with safety? Because these are working lines and most of the puppies - sure not all - are able to learn faster and work easier than puppies from only showline. I did say it above. In a working line you can work with 5 from 8 puppies. In a show line you can maybe work with 2 of 8 puppies. You have to be realistic. What some you are trying to do is, living after lawrules for dogs. But there are no lawrules for what is a working dog.

And someone says we have only young breed only in gsd and Malinois could be working lines. I don´t know if you know the german herding dog Harzer Fuchs. This is no FCI Breed but lots of people who have sheeps work with Harzer Fuchs. He has red brown coat and the males are like gsd or bit smaller. These are only working dogs and puppies are only given to people who work with them. I don´t really know how many there are in germany but I think some like the csw. In my village are living two. So there is no need for big numbers of dogs to have a working line.

And sorry to say Margo, Torsten has a female from KoKo if I remember right and it same working dog as KoKo is.

Your problem is that you don´t know that there are no rules from FCI what is working dog. to be after FCI a working dog you only need BH and IPO 1. That is all! But some of you wants to make a university time with an exam at the end out of it. Maybe it will come some time. But dog breeding is nothing which is controlled by the state - only Bullterrier a.s.o. in germany -. So everyone who knows dogs will be able to see what dog is able to work and which is not able.

Christian

Christian

Unlike you. You seem to know EVERYTHING! :twisted:

No not everything, but what I know I share with you. And if you don´t write what you know I have to think that you maybe don´t know....

No stress, keep smiling.

Christian

Christian,
If you claim that 5 pups out of 8 in the working line litters are good material for working dogs I would be very grateful if you provided some statistical evidence / background which supported your statements. Just tell us which CSV matches resulted in such 80% magnificent ‘working descendants’. And then, how many of them gave further working generations.

Besides:
1. It is enough for the dog to pass a 40km running exam to be presented in a working class at dog shows(e.g. Slovakia) but we all know, that such an exam is very easy for a CSV and thus neither does it prove that this is a really working dog, nor that he descents from a working line. So this argument is rather weak.
2. Already in civilian’s ownership - CSV have been never selected according to their working abilities,. There have rather been cases that people who wanted to train their dogs bought pups of parents that had passed some kind of exams. But this can hardly be called proper selection, can it? The variety in the appearance (e.g. consider just the differences in exterior of Czech, Slovak and Italia dogs!) shows that there have been significant differences among the breeders – their priorities made various elements prominent… We may extrapolate this trend over to other aspects. If so, what happened to the working and training potential?

And last, but not least: CSV have been designed to become working dog breed, so theoretically (and practically) each CSV should possess some kind of inborn knack for working. So if we speak about ‘working line’s it would have to mean that certain family lines should be extraordinarily easily trainable and conspicuously bright among other CSVs. At least that’s how I see it.

It , which is a big pluse wants to do tests and have good time.
to also adds to the discussion. (Google translation)
Ine is said that a know quickly disperse and am interested in something else. So training and tests (which receives no snacks) is a big difference. Of course, not everyonIt also adds to the discussion. (Google translation)
Ine is said that a dog has it, but do tests and different when the test and must keep the dog in the spotlight. Really it's not so simple-CVK and to know quickly disperse and am interested in something else. So training and tests (which receives no snacks) is a big difference. Of course, not everyone wants to do tests and have good time.
In a world-CVK and are not much good to see they are very particular character and their menu. People have a gap. So it is good if it works with dogs. Certainly over time create a work line, as in the dog. Just have to learn how to treat them. Art does not have parents who are in work line, but somehow exams obedience-CSAU, TAN, OB, OBE1, ZOP, ZPU1, BH
feet from me - PS, EEPS-RCI, FCI1, 2xFCI2, RU.
Kusacky are forbidden in France. Jump back and forth to Germany for training. Apparently in Germany also is not much you ciek cv-piece.
So, to create a true working breed and versatile us an opportunity "moment" lasts. But it is true that there are more and more people who work with CVG-tions