SIBO & Inflamatory bowel disease
 

Dear all, i would liek to ask your opinion on the following subject. I got my puppy about a month ago. From the forst day i had him he had diarhea. I tried to change his fod but nothing worked. I took hi to the vet, run some tests for EPI and SIBO and Inflamtory bowel disease. He told me that the EPI results came negative but his B12 vitamine is very low which signifies he may have SIBO or an Inflamatory bowel disease in his small intestinal. Does anyone from here ever had a puppy with such a disease? Currently he is 3 and a half motnhs old and he is very skinny. He weighs only 14kg. He is very active but always hugnry and he keeps on eating his diarhoea. If he is diagnosed with this, do you think i should ask the breeder to get him back?

Thank you in advance

Nicholas

What tests where made in addition to that? Every chronic form can cause this symptoms. A very, very common reason at the moment are Giardia, has it been tested for that?

Ina

:roll:
You have already talk with the breeder about this problem? what was his reaction?!
When the problem be really disgnosticated without doubts you must say about the problem for the breeder, if honest, he will searching for others cases of this disease in the offsprings of the sire and dam as will help you to find good treatments and give a good life for your puppy.
I find really great took the opinion of others 2 differents veterinarians.

A good breeder will not see problems to take the puppy back and find a good home for he... but... if the puppy have problems, you will only change he for a healty puppy or the money back?! like a DVD when arrive damaged for your home?!
So.. will be better the breeder take the puppy back...

Hello,

you do not name the breeder, but from what you say, I have certain idea about its possible origin. If I am right, ask the veterinarian to run tests on herpes virus. Also ask the veterinarian to run tests on the diarrhoea, to check the bacterias and possible manifestation of worms. The puppy probably needs antibiotics, possibly it will need to be dewormed. But do one thing at a time.

Do not let the puppy eat his diarrhoea. Keep the puppy on diet - best is boiled chicken with rice, forget about the dry food, it will not help. First you need to fix the diarrhoea, then deal with the lack of vitamins. Rice and chicken with help you stop it, together with the proper antibiotics. Then when the puppy feels stronger, you might start adding more things into his diet, or go slowly to dry food diet.

Your puppy is in serious problems, it is not normal for a puppy to be sick like this and the breeder should be exposed for breeding and selling pups in this shape, whoever it is. However, who sells puppies in this shape, probably does not care about them and their fate. You might not see your money back, and they may refuse to take the puppy back. Sorry, it looks like you bought your puppy from a mass producer. :(

I honestly symphatise with you and even more with your pup for obvious reasons :evil:, but just one quick question out of pure curiosity: did you manage to have it delivered to your doorstep as you wanted some time ago when you were planning to get it?

A agree with Mirka: rice blended with chicken should help at the beginning to stop the diarhea and improve the pup's condition. Remember, that the little one desperately needs your help and attention now! Maybe the Fate has sent it to you to help you understand something? :)

Hi,

I also had some troubles with my puppy in the beginning... Try not to focus on his/her weight to much. My puppy weighted only 10kg when she was 3,5 months old and very skinny too. Don't forget to deworm every 2 weeks! Untill the puppy is 6 months old. Very, very important! The chicken and the rice is good. What I tried and what helps a lot to stop diarrea is raw food, but good quality. The kind of beefsteak you would eat yourself, cut in smaller pieces. You can also try to give your puppy the water in which you boiled the rice (rice like Mirka said is good!). Give him this instead of normal water. It stops diarrea. It seems to me that your puppy cannot take al the substances that he needs out of it's food, because the proces is going too quickly. That can be the reason for eating his own feces: they're still full of vitamins and other things... But don't let him eat them :| My puppy did the same.
Giardia Intestinales seems a possible diagnose, but probably your vet has already checked this? Giardia is caused by a protozoa that gives chronic diarrea. It can affect humans too, so be carefull and always wash your hands when you cleaned up the feces of your puppy...
I don't think it could be Herpes, because your puppy would be death by now. And a puppy of that age usually doesn't have diarrea because of Herpes. They would 'only' have problems with their respiratory system and they could have a sort of rush on their stomac.
As long as the puppy stayes active like everythings alright for him, I think he will be fine. But try to stop the diarrea and deworm him every 2 weeks! A second opinion of another vet would be a good idea. And a chat with the breeder!

Greetings,

Liesbeth

In general cooked potatoes are bette than rice in this cases, though rice is the thing people are used to.

Sorry, but I disagree on this.

More info on this: http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenl...dvet/vhr2.html
More info on Giardia: http://www.priory.com/vet/giardia.htm

Therefore, I am strongly convinced that the unusually weak puppies with low weight might be caused by herpes, together with possible strong manifestation of giardia or other bacterias, plus maybe worms etc. If all this does not kill the puppy, then of course the puppy is weak and sick. Even part of this all is enough to cause the puppy serious problems.

I do not want my money back. All i want is a healthy puppy. I have already talked to the breeder and he replied that none of his dogs were sick. Not even his parents. They are all healthy. He said that it might not be any of the diseases mentioned and that he just needs to adapt to his new home.
To answer one question , the puppy was delivered to me by airplane. But i do not see anything wrong about that. I will ask my vet today about the other dieseases mentioned and i will ask again for your help. Thank you very much.

Nicholas

To Mirka about the Herpes: I was only talking about the symptoms you can see when a puppy survived Herpes. So when I said: it 'only' causes respiratory problems and a rush, I ment the visible symptoms... Of course you cannot see damage to nervous system and kidneys etc... not this soon.

But I now why Mirka thinks about Herpes and I think it's good thing to let the puppy run some tests for it! If it is Herpes, you can maybe arrange something with the breeder... Part of your money back, while keeping the puppy or something like that. If it is Herpes, the puppy got infected where it was born, so there's a serious problem going in the kennel of the breeder. It's not because the parents are healthy that there isn't a disease spread in the kennel. How many puppies were there in the litter? Did puppies die in that litter? Can't you contact some other people who have a puppy from the same litter? Ask them if they got any problems...?
This is not 'just stress' I think...


Let us know how things go! Succes with the puppy...

Liesbeth

HI! have your veterinary to check your puppy for pneumonia! My puppy had that when she was 3-4 months and had the same sympthoms, wery skinny always hungry and thirsty, no worms and eating it's diarrhoea..
After 10 days of antibiotics she became more and more normal weight and now she is healthy and happy again.

I took him top the vet again this morning to give him a shot of B12 vitamin. He ruled out the Herpes issue. It seesm however that he is getting better. Since last Monday he put on 1,5kg and he weighs now 15.5kg. His stool is mixed , half shaped but soft and half like diarhea. With regards to the kennel, the breeder informed that there is nothing wiht the other dogs and puppies. All of them are very healthy. I belive him since he has been very cooperative up to now. The problem is that even if he is sick i do not wish to give him back. I am attached already to him and i want to fight this together. The vet told me that hos treatmetn at the moment is a mild one just in case it is something simple. If he does not get better or completely healthy within the next 2 weeks then he will proceed with strong antibiotics which will mean that he has either SIBO or inflamatory bowel disease. He dewormed him again today and agreed on deworming him for the next 2 motnhs every 2 weeks. I noticed a good sign today. When he did his stool he did not turn around to eat it. SO i have the feeling that we are progressing..

Thank you all for your help.

Nicholas

I hope he will get better!
I'm glad he's making progress...

Good luck!!

[quote=nicholas;96700] With regards to the kennel, the breeder informed that there is nothing wiht the other dogs and puppies. All of them are very healthy. [/code]

Sure. And what other fairy tales you have been told? If the puppy had diarrhoea from the first day you got him, it came with it. Which means, it was already dispatched sick. Which means the other puppies are probably also sick etc.

[quote=nicholas;96700]
I belive him since he has been very cooperative up to now. [/code]

Of course he was. He made quite some money on you, did not he.

[quote=nicholas;96700]
The problem is that even if he is sick i do not wish to give him back. I am attached already to him and i want to fight this together. [/code]

Unfortunatelly, this is what the breeder counts on. He sells you sick puppy for a price of healthy one, tells you in the kennel is everything all right and it´s your problem. And there you go spending load of money for the vet making the puppy fine again.

This is something people like Rona were warning you against, when you were asking about how to get puppy sent to your doorstep. This is the price for such delivery service.

Anyways, I wish you that the puppy will make it and get healthy and in shape soon. You are obviously on a good way.

Mirka for your information ( and because you still sound hosyile) let me just tell you that the vet contacted the kennels vet as well as the kennel clusb of that country. He told me that there was no way that the breeder could have known and it is not an inhereted disease or condition.

Nicholas

No matter what you think about me, this is what you wrote. If the puppy had diarrhoea from the first day you got it, it must have come with it. There´s no way around it. However, if you preffer the version of your breeder/vet etc., it´s up to you, I don´t care.
If the puppy is having diarrhoea for one full month, it is rather scary and no wonder, the puppy is weak and skinny. I hope your veterinarian will make a stop to it all soon.

But after all: things will turn out good in the end!
It's a good thing your puppy starts to get better!
Now you can finally enjoy your puppy, without being scared that something will happen to him!
So what we forgot to say: congratulations with the new family member!
Do you have some photo's of the little one?? What's his/her name?
Don't forget to share your good/nice experiences too!! :)

Enjoy your puppy; before you know it, they are all grown up... ;)

Greetings,

Liesbeth

Thanlk you for the wishes. His name is Tristan. He is very active and always looking for me to pet him. He is very very curious and keeps on bitting things, but not major damages yet. He stops once you shout to him "Don't"! I am still trying to teach hom where to pee etc, but he is too young to realize. He likes chewing a big bath towel and this is his favorite toy. I will share some pics wiht once if you tell me how i can upload them.

Thanks again

Nicholas

Hi Nicholas,

I am glad that the puppy is getting OK and I am also very glad that you proved to be really interested, trying to fight the disease. So I wish you very much luck.

And I am looking forward to seeing your pictures.

To upload pictures here into the forum posts, the pictures must be already online somewhere. I suggest you go to http://photobucket.com/ and start an account (join now). It´s free. Then you upload the pictures from your computer to Photobucket. Once they are uploaded, under every picture you´ll see the "url" address of the photos.
Then you go back to the forum here and in your reply, click the little icon of picture (it´s the small square with little mountain and sun on it). It will open a window where you paste the url of the image you want to share with us. If you preview your post, it should show you the photo.

Looking forward to see the puppy ;)

Hopefully things will improve soon and Tristan will grow up to be a fine and strong dog, which everbody here wishes would happen.

Being a small pup now he will probably forget his early days with you, but I'm sure he will always remember the feeling that his "pack" protected him when he was in need. Wolfdogs, like wolves, are very loyal and grateful.

We experienced this with Tina... rescued and adopted her when she was a little puppy and for the following 14 years she'd follow us even into fire... :lol: Now she's very old and sick :cry:, and we're struggling for her again!

Thank you Rona for your kind words. I wish you the best with your dog.

Here are some pic of Tristan before i took him to the vet. The last one is taken in order for you to see how skinny he was. Now he looks a lot better. I will take some pics and post them as well.

Thank you again for your support.

Nicholas


http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...7/3MONTHS2.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...anchewing1.jpg








http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...7/3MONTHS3.jpg

I wanted to let you know that Tristan's condition did not change. There was a temporary improvement but then the diarrhea came back. I took him two days ago to the largest animal clinic in Greece. He stayed for 2 days and run every kind of tests there is. The results up to now show nothing. We are awating results for parasites. They run all tests available for parasites. And here is the ugly part. They have him under a treatment with cortizone (injections) for 3 days, 2 pills/day called tagamet and 2 pills/da called medrol. If he responds well in treatmetn the vet said that it will be an indirect confirmation that he is suffering from IBD. If he does not then they must take a piece of his small intestine for biopsy. The vet explained to me that IBD is a general term and the real cause of IBD can be a number of things. If he responds to the treatmetn it means that with a careful diet he will be just fine despite the IBD. If he does not then he most likely has a problem to a specific part of the intestine that cannot be treated. In that case the dig must be put doen cause he will die anyway. I really hope that we will manage to avoid the worst case scenario ant live together for many years.

We're keeping our fingers crossed!

Thank you Rona, for your kiond words.

Dear all,

Today we got the results for the parasite tests of Tristan. It is a good day cause we found the answer we have been looking for. He is diagnosed with Giardia. The bad thing is that it is a difficult parasite to get rid off a dog's system and is contageous to humen. However i was told that the rate of success for the dog to clean up completely is some 90% wiht some new drugs. After the 3 day treatmetn everything arounf him must be crystal clean as if he lives inside an operating room. There is a chance that the eggs won't leave his system immediately and that he may presetn again the same symptoms in the future but the vets are otpimistic that even if this happens we will be able with a second cycle to clen him completely. I will keep you posted for the results. His therapy ends on Sunday night.

Best
Nicholas

Probably others dogs comes from the same breeder have the same problem see how easy contagious is the Giardia, I not want guilty anyone, Giardia is very common here principally at north and central states wich the number of infected dogs are closely to 80%, I never see a good breeder who take the minimal care with his dogs have puppies with that problem, less send then at new home with that (!!!), but that is sigtly common happen when the puppy commes from puppy mills or merchants who only sold puppy's seing the money, as I say, I not want guilty anyone, but that rarelly will happen with a good breeder, who take the minimal care with his dogs.
In that case, I think serious that you must serching for the justice, Giardia can leave time to show symptoms, so, see what you have write here, the puppy probably comes with Giardia from the kennel, if the vet comfirme that the breeder must pay all treatment and exames who you have made.

One difficult of the Giardia treatment is the desinfection, so you will have to desinfect your home for kill all possibles eggs prevent one reinfection or one human infection, I believe your vet have talk with you about that, if not, ask he/she how is the best way to desinfect your home.

Good luck with your pup!
Congrat's for your actitud.

That sounds very strange to me. You see, I also bought puppy who started insane diarrhoea within two or three days. I took the puppy straight to the vet and they diagnosed giardia right away, from the sample of the diarrhoea. I can´t believe it took your veterinarian more than a month to come to the same conclusion! :shock: However, thanks God they finally figured it out.

Anyways, if it is only giardia, don´t worry, it will be fine. My pup was at that time 7 weeks old, she got antibiotics and was on strict diet for 14 days (rice+boiled chicken) and after that everything was fine. She never had problems again. And we were not told any special precautions, nothing. Nobody catched it from the dog (it is hardly possible, if you simply wash your hands enough).

Good luck!

Mirka is right. you just use Fenbendazol (Panacur) or Metronidazol for 5!!! days (Three days are not enough!) , then pause for about two weeks then do another 5!!! days treatment.
They get resistent with the time.
Girardia gets more and more common and should be the first thing to look for repeatedly with the symptoms your dog showed.

Ina

In order to reach to that conclusion i had to change the vet 3 times. The first i took him was a woman who initially told me that i had to put the dog down since he has a serious problem. I could not accept such a behaviour form a vet. The easy solution for her, to kill the dog. The next one was more porfessional but did not test him for parasites. HE was the first to talk about SIBO and IBD. He gave him flagyl of 1000mg per day for 3 weeks! Sinc this did not imporve his condition i took him to tha largest vet clinic in Greece 2 hours away from where i live. It is a clinic responsible for the caring of the animals in the Athens zoo. There they tested him for Giardia. The total cost reached more than 1000 Euros. Forgive me for being bold but i do not give a shit about the cost if i can make my frined feel good. I am not going to ask anybody to compensate me for this. The problem is that he is going under a heavier treatment than flagyl since Giardia has been immune to the specific drug after taking half of the dose he should have for 3 weeks. (in order for Giardia to pass he should have taken 2500mg per day and he was given 1000mg a day). I already talked to the vet and the breeder. The vet told me that either he got it form the kennel or froma pet hotel i took him for 4 days. Even if he got it from the kennel (the pet had taken the pill against parasites from the breeder) there is a big chance that the breeder did not know about it. You see the eggs sit around until the dog is stressed or very anxious only then do they hatch and the parasites get out of the cyst. My friend flew to Athens and the trip cause him enough stress to turn him from a carrier to a patient. The other animals are not stressed. The good thing is that at least we know what hte problem is and we can fix it.

Best,
Nick

I am not so sure about this. If the pup brought it from the kennel, you can be sure it would appear at the other pups at the kennel too. I had my pup under treatment for giardia for about two days, when the breeder called that his other pups started diarrhoea too and asked me what kind of treatment we used.. And they were still at his kennel, so no big change for them happened.
But I agree with the vet, that the pup could pick it up easily somewhere else, especially if the poor little pup was in some pet hotel:shock:

Anyways, good that you found finally good and reasonable veterinarian. The puppy must weakened by all this giardia and diarrhoea for so long, poor guy! Oh and I remember that after we finished the antibiotics for giardia, our vet gave us some special pasta with the right bacteria to restore the microflora in the pups intestines (cause the antibiotics killed everything). I can´t remember the name unfortunatelly, perhaps Ina will know. Maybe you should ask for that thing too, it will help the pup get back in shape.

Plain white yogurt (small quantity) around 15 ml 2x day can help to promote growth of beneficial bacteria - the acidipholus and the environment of the yogurt both help the "good" bacteria grow. Haha, I say that as a dog owner, and also a person who has had a bacterial infection - yogurt works for both people and animals! Good luck with your pup!

Dera all,

I tooko todayt Tristan from the vet and he has just finished the first phase of his therapy with Valbazen. He took it for 3 days. and now we expect to see the results. COuld you pls inform me as to by which day did the feces started to return to normal? How long did it take for the dog to completely stop the diarhoea?

Thanks again.

Nick

I would also liek your help on another issue. Tristan eats his feces. That is a major problem with Giardia since he will never get over it. Unfortunately, my wife and i are away from home for 7 hours a day. DO you have any idea how i can make him stop eating his feces while i am away?

Thanks in advance.

Nick

Many puppies do this especially when they have intestinal problems. It stops when the intestinal problem stops.
As I wrote before you have to repeat the treatment after 1-2 weeks, otherwise it starts all over again.
But don´t worry too much, the dogs get resistent against Giardia after some time of stabilisation.

I understand, but isn't it difficult to get rid of Giardia if he keeps on eating his feces? How is he supposed to get over it if he keeps putting it in his system?

Ina do you have any idea how i can make him stop this?

With regards to the treatment, the vet suggested that we take again sample from his feces on Wednesday and SUnday. Should his feces start to become harder and we will continue with valbazen. If he shows no porgress he suggested to use fysiogen (tinadozole) which is a drug used in humans for giardia and not penocur. What do you think?

Is he going to be alright in the end after all this? What if he has been having it for more than 2 motnhs? What kind of damage his intestines might have suffered? Do you have any product to propose for probiotics and to restore the flora in his intestine?

He will put them into his system his whole life long, he is not the only dog with Giardia and Giardia stay in the ground quite a time. The dogs get immune against them and don´t get ill any longer.

He will stop by his own and you can teach him at least not to do so when you are near but this will take some time.

We normally don´t use those drugs in Germany for dogs with Giardia. I work as a vet for an animal shelter with around 140 dogs and the same amount of cats. We have a big Giardia problem and every new dog starts with this diarrhia sooner or later. We use Fenbendazol (Panacur) for 5 days with 14 days break and repeat the treatment. For older dogs or dogs that still tend to have problems we use Metronidazol the second time or in the thame sheme like Panacur. You even can combine these drugs for severe cases.
Till now every dog including the very young and small ones in very bad conditions got over it quite soon.
For a dog with a history like yours I would spare the second test and just do a second treatment, if he gets problems again I would do another test, it doesn´t have to be Giardia.

If Giardia is his only problem he will just have a period of soft faeces becaus the bactirias in his intestines have to restore. A diet and Joghurt as recommended will do. Don´t panic he will get over it.

Ina

Thyank you very much for your help. I appreciate it.

Best,
Nicholas

Hi all,

Just wanted to let you know that Tristna is ....a new dog! His diarrhoea has stoped, his stooll are gettign firmer by the day. He is alive an energetic as he should have been! I am realy happy for him. We are waiting the results from the second test and on Tuesday he will start the second cycle with valbazen. Other than that he is having feces once and sometimes twice a day (probably because of his diet with chicken and rice).

Thank you all for your kind words and support.

Best,
Nicholas

good news :)

regards
Angelika

Is it normal for the dog to start again haing diarhoea? SInce the day before yesterday he has been having diarhoea again. Tomorrow he is supposed to start the second phase wiht valbazen.

Thanks again

Giardia very often start a second time, that´s the reason for the second treatment.

The strange thing is that yesterday the results of the test came out. After the first treatmetn with valbazen both test (feces from 2 different days) came out negative. I used to give him some pills ( natural supplements) for his intestinal flora. Once i stopped them he returned to diarhoea. The other problem i am facing wiht him is that he still eats his feces. All this sounds strange to me since his tests are negative. Any thoughts as to why he is eating the feces? With regads to the diarhoea i suppose that i will have to continue the bacteria for a larger period of time.

After such a long period of diarhoea it takes a much longer time till the normal intestinal flora is restored, especially in such a young dog that is still building up it´s intestinal flora. You sometimes have negativ results and a week later positvs so I wouldn´t rely on this too. I would continue the second treatment and the pills, the pills for at least 3-4 weeks.

We finished wiht his second treatment but he is still haveing soft feces. SOmetimes formed sometimes not. When is ti appropriate for me to wait for "normal" feces from Tristan?

Well, we had two dogs that we got with severe intestinal problems from the breeder out of nearly the same reasons. It seemed they had the problems some time before we got them. It took one of them, which was allready 1,5 years and no puppy, 6 month till it was stabilized, it will take your puppy several weeks and it very likely will react sensible to everything for several month.
But be sure that there didn´t occur a second problem like pathogen bacterias or other parasites.

To be honest, once he turned out positive to Giardia, all other tests were stopped. He was examined with 7 different tests for 7 different parasites from feces sample. I suppose that there is no other parasite involved. But i have never heard of pathogen bacteria. What do you mean by that?

In addition to the above, what has stroke me is tha fact that he has been having gas hat smell a lot. As he gets older he is having gas more frequently.

I have been trying to find a good probiotic supplement on the web but wiht no success. Can you recomend anything that i may try to find in Greece?

You can use a good probiotic joghurt for humans, Bird Bene Bac, Cani Bac, many companies have one your vet will know one. It is in discussion if anything of it comes to a dogs intestine because the pH of the stomach is so very low and kills most of the bacterias.
The intestins have a normal bacterial flora that is very important for their function and is a protection against other bacterias like Salmonella and pathogen Escherichia coli families (there a E.coli that should be in the intestines, not all are pathogen!) or Klebsiella or Candida (which is a fungus) and so on. When a dog has diarrhea a longer time the normal flora gets disturbed, especially in young dogs that are still building it up. You can help them with special diet over a longer time (there are commercial ones for intestinal problems that work quite good) but it takes some time till everything works really well, through this time your dog will be sensible to everything knew for the intestines, stress, bacterias and parasites.
I normally treat the Giardia twice, if diarrhea continues I send a sample to a veterinary lab for all parasites (inclusive Giardia again), mycological testing and bacterial testing. In Germany you can do this in one package and it is not that expensive. I also give every dog with longer problems a special intestinal diet until they have normal feces for about one or two weeks and then trye to change back in steps to normal food. The diet gives the intestines a rest and helps them to build up a normal flora again.
But this is how I treat it, your vet may have another opinion.
And again it takes time, don´t get to fixed on your dogs feces;).

Thank you very much for all the info. They run on him the pacjage of tests you said. However i will disagree on the cost issue. Despite that it was not an issue for me, the 4 days he spent in the clinic cost me c. 1500 Euros. I want what is best for him and i wil not hesitate to pay whatever amount. The problem is that in Greece there is only one chain of pet shops which does not have a wide variety of such products like probiotics for dogs. I will ned up ordering something from an online store.

Thank you again for all your help.

Best,
Nicholas

So after all this time, how is the puppy doing now? Is everything o.k., the giardia gone and the dog growing up? If you have some photos, share with us. :)

Hi all, it has been quite a while since i last wrote cause my pc was broken down.Tristan is just fine now, he has gained weight, he is very active and joyful. However still ther is a problem with his intestine. He is still on probiotics and very sensitive to any change in his diet.
Other than that he is just fine!!!

These are soem pics of him......He is a very beautiful dog....!!!!!

Very nice photos !

Egeine poli oreo skili, xairome pou eintos pio kala.

Xairetismous ;)

That´s good news! The stomach might settle down with time, hopefully.

And thank you for the pics, Tristan looks great :)