To all friends
 

Hi.
It's been an eardeafening silence on our group for a long while.
Anybody still alive out there? :-)

---
Per Olav

To all friends
 

still here. just waiting for september so gordon and i can visit europe and
wolfdogs.
susan

To all friends
 

Hi Susan.

To all friends
 

Hi out there!

As being new to this list, I would like to present myself a little, and I'm curious about who my fellow listmember would be.

I'm "pack leader" of a German Shepherd pack, living in Sweden. Prime interests are biology, nature (wilderness), ecology, ethology, genetics etc, and especially wolves. I'm an eager activist in protecting the few wild wolves we've got in southern Scandinavia, living along the border of Sweden/Norway and became "half norwegian" last winter when I was one of the activists who tried to hinder the norwegian government to wipe out one of our few packs, but I'm sure you all know that they where shot down by helicopter in Norway.

I'mstudying to become a Ethologist. As I'v been working with biology subjects and studying the wolves, I've detected how similar the spepherds and the wolves are, both fysically but mostly mentally. That insight has made me curious about other wolf-like dogs and this study has brought me to the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and here I am.

As I have begun studying this dog I've found that there is a very close relationship to the wolf, often 25-35% wolf blood, wich makes me believe that they are not as humanly manipulated as othter breeds and more like natures own design.

Hopefully you'll help me to be enlightened about these beautiful and amazingly wolflike dogs.

Hope to hear from you all.

Sanna Folkeson

To all friends
 

Dear Sanna,
I have only shortly comment to very often opinion, which is wrong in basic.

% of wolfblood have nothing to do with a domestication or character. We can teoretically breeding now only with dogs which have a relatively high % of wolfblood and we will have after 100 years always over 30% but the dogs will be absolutely domesticated and like you wrote "humanly manipulated". Lot of people means, that higher % of wolfblood is automaticaly higher % of wolf behaviour. But its not true. Genetics have nothing to do with % of blood. % of blood is mathematic only.
You can see, that our most succesfull working wolfdog - Hasso z Kladenske zare have over 27% of wolfblood and is in work more usefull, than some other, they have under 10%. Just in first generations after first crossing the wolf with GSD were some very good working dogs and some absolutely "wolves". Its a basic argument, why really % of wolfblood have no conection with a behaviour.

Thank you for compliments to our dogs. The best chance to know more about our dogs is visit some our summer camps. There you can be with dogs 14 days 24 hours. You are welcome.

Pavel

To all friends
 

Thank you Pavel, for answering.

I was not really referring to behaviour of the dogs rather the fact that most "ordinary" dogs have a lot of dysfunctions that the breeding has let through and that is what I mean with manipulations. Having been studying genetics I'm aware of that the outcome would be as you presented.

It appears to be a good idea to come and visit a camp. Would you be so kind and let me know a little bit more about them - where, when, how... ?

Sanna

To all friends
 

Hi Sanna and everybody,
informations about summer camp are in section "Comming events" on our pages. How traditionally is the summer camp in Lazne Belohrad in northeastern Bohemia (near city Hradec Kralove).
Accomodation is in very simply bungalows or in simply rooms in main building of camp. This year is camp from 27.8. - 9.8.2002 but you can be there to 10.8. where is in camp a CsW competition in training.
More details we dont have yet. It comming soon and we will inform you on our pages.

Pavel

To all friends
 

Hi,

I hope you're okay!
I think the silence is a silence before the storm.
In my case..i've been very busy and when i, in a
sparse moment,am doing nothing, i desperatly want to
keep it that way.
I think it's the time of the year!But just wait untill
spring! I think there will be more noise from
everyone.
And now i have committed myself to reply on this
message i also want to ask you about the
clickertraining.Do you still work with it?

a friend,
Marja.

To all friends
 

Hi Marja.

Thanks for responding :-)

Sure I am, and even better so when receiving your mail :-)

OK. Same on my side, but when spring has come we have to improve our
garden, rmend the house etc.

Yes I do. Now and then :-)
But now the sun is warmer and the days are longer, and we are able to see
each other even at evenings. So now is the time for more intensive training.
You'll have a more spesific report later.

Love to you all

Per Olav

To all friends
 

Hi Sanna.


My name is Per Olav and I am a neighbor of you on the western side of the
Swedish/Norwegian border.
Like you who is a member of the Swedish wolf group, I'm a member of the
Norwegian Alpha-group ( http://www.alpha-gruppen.com ).
You find some pics of my CSV Fellow od Uhoste, nicknamed Cziky on his home
page. As far as I know, he's the only Scandinavian CSV.

---
Per Olav

To all friends
 

Hi Per Olav,

thank you for responding! Like you, I am too a member of the ALPHA-group... ;-), maybe we met at the yearly meeting last year?

Maybe your CSV won=B4t be alone in Scandinavia in the future ;-)

Sanna

To all friends
 

Hi Per Olav, Sanna and everybody,

I am originally from Finland but live now in Switzerland (with 2 CsVs), and I know that at least in Finland there are some CsVs
and one breeder. Could you Sanna tell me/us more about the law regulations in Sweden? Sweden is - as far as I know - the only
country in Europe where all wolf dogs are banned including CsV and Saarloos. I have heard that when, for example we go for our
summer holiday to Finland we can not even drive through Sweden with our dogs. That's why we take a Ferry from Germany and go
directly to Finland. Is anything about to change in Sweden concerned this matter.

Minna

To all friends
 

Hi Vuolle and everyone else!

This is fortunately not quite true about the wolves or the wolf dogs. They are banned from breeding but not from living.There are some wolf crossings and wolf dogs living here, but we are not allowed to breed from them, but - and this is very important; the breeds that are allowed as breed in the FCI standards are allowed as dogs also to breed in this country. The Swedish Kennel Association has not recognised Saarlos, but as far as I have been able to check up recently recognised CSV.

So to travel through Sweden shouldn't be a problem as long as your dogs are vaccinated. Nobody takes your dogs away from you and most people wouldn't be able to separate CSVs from Shepherds anyway, they even think that my Shepherds are wolves now and then. Only tell them that you'4ve got grey Shepherds - that would satisfy anybody. Grey Shepherds are beginning to be more common now. If you begin to talk about wolf dogs to people who doesn't know anything about them, it's like pressing an unwanted button.

Sanna

To all friends
 

Hello, Sanna!

About one year ago we called to your ministry of agriculture
and there they said, THAT WE CAN'T even travel across the Sweden wth the wolfdogs.

One of my friend called this year again, and same answer.

It would be nice, if get some printed info "black on white" about this.

Greetings; Suski, from Finland

To all friends
 

Hi,
according my information from my swedish friends is the problem in wrong formulation in law. Sweden have in this sense same law, like e.d. Norway. But in Norway is the text folowing (sorry, but its not the 100% quotation) "... is forbiden to own wolfdogs (exc. Saarloos and Czechoslovakian wolfdog) ...". In Sweden is same text, but without the notice in parenthesis. And its a problem, because "wolfdog" means in most language "hybrid" and really "wolfdog" as well. Swedish law was built against the "hybrids"
but momentaly is valid for our dogs too, because wrong formulation.

Pavel

To all friends
 

OK, I'll try to find this.

Sanna

To all friends
 

Hi Pavel.

The Norwegian Animal Health Authority says in the Norwegian import
regulation of dogs and cats ( full english version: http://www.dyrehelsetilsynet.no/nors..._hund_katt.pdf ):
"Importation of dogs to Norway of the following breeds ( pure breed or
crosses) is prohibited: Bull Terrier, Fila Brasiliero, Tosa Ino and Dogo
Argentino. For breeds that may be confused with any of the above mentioned
breeds, e. g. American Staffordshire Terrier, it must be possible to
document with an original pedigree certificate and an ID-number that the
animal is not an offspring of prohibited breeds."
Saarloos and CSV are considered a pure breed and are therefore allowed.
Regarding SW there are som 10 species in Norway. Of CSVs the number is 1.
Main problem is vaccination (Rabies in particular) and quarrantining.

Regarding possession of wolf hybrids in Norway I'm doing a little research :-)

---
Per Olav

To all friends
 

There are quite a number of so called wolf "hybrids" - as they are one and the same kind they should not be called hybrids but crossings - in both Norway and Sweden. I have met several of them. A hybrid is an individual who is crossed between species and is steril. If crossings wouldn=B4t be allowed, they wouldn=B4t be but they are. In Sweden we have the same prohibition you have stated here, Per Olav, but Saarlos is not accepted as a dog of the SKA. The CSV is though, as far as I have been able to find out.

Sanna

To all friends
 

We heard about that. I was a suprised that they shot those wolves - so many
people tried to save them..

We got the same problem here in Poland this winter. Governour of Podkarpacie
asked for the permision to kill 50 wolves (he is of course one of the
hunters). But this time we won: Ministry of Environment dismissed that
request (it happened due to our protests). Scientists will check now if
there are really to many wolves in Poland (the numbers given by hunters
always depart from the truth...)

Kama (the owner of Fany) found a great M.A. thesis which tries to compare
wolves (from the wolfpark "Stobnica") and dogs. A big minus of it are
missing information about dogs (you can see the author have not sufficient
information about dog behaviour). But it's really worth of reading. The main
point is: although it's easy recognize wolf and dog, the differences between
them are small. I think if she will have any chance to insert in this thesis
also information about our wolfdogs it will be a "missing link" between
canis lupus and canis familiaris....

Greetings,
Margo

To all friends
 

Hi Pavel and the rest of the pack.

I've done some research on the subject...
A biologist dealing with wolves and dogs says *no* Norwegian laws explisit
prohibit hybrids/cross breeds of wolf/dog to be owned by human.
On the other hand the authorities are not i favor of wolf hybrids/cross
breeds, and therefore are using a law saying it is not allowed to keep wild
animals fenced unless special permission is granted.
Keeping wild animals fenced is only permitted with respect to zoos/animal
parks/wolf parks etc. A wolf hybrid/cross breed puppy is a result of the
breeding of a dog and a wild wolf, and therefore considered wild...
The only breeds explisit not allowed imported by law to Norway, are so
called "fighting dogs" as Pitbull Terrier, Fila Brasiliero, Tosa Ino and
Dogo Argentino.

---
Per Olav

To all friends
 

There is already a lot of very interesting research done about different dog
breeds and wolfs and their crossings by Erik Zimen and Dorith Feddersen-Petersen
in Kiel Germany. They´ve wrote both several books and papers about it and I
always found they helped me a lot in understanding my dogs. I would be very
interested in this paper when it is written in english ore german language,
unfortunally I don´t understand other languages well enough.
Greeting Ina

To Vuolle
 

Hi,

I've tried VERY hard to get FACTS from the authorities in Sweden about this matter. The other day I found the current law that says that first and second generation wolves/dogs from outer EU is not allowed, others are not restricted. Today I got a mail from the Agricultural Department where they say that they will not allow dogs/wolves from first to fourth generation, but if you can present a pedegree from fifth generation and forth they regard it as dog and there is no restriction whatsoever but what is stated for import of dogs in general.

I have written back asking for the exact laws - hopefully I'll get them, but that is what I know for facts at the moment. Friends of mine here in Sweden and others who I know of "owns" mixed dogs of wolf and dog without any problems, and they have no pedegree as they are considered crossings, "streetdogs". Some of them are half wolves. Authorities are eager to spread that Sweden has very restricted laws about these dogs, but that is not true.

Are there any Saarlos or CSW of less "dog status" than fifth generaton? And doesn't they all have pedigree?

Sanna

To Sanna, Damaris and every one
 

Hi Sanna,

Thanks a lot for your hard work on this issue; please, keep digging deeper so that we get these facts black and white from the authorities. Could it be that people in Sweden who are in charge (custom officers etc.) of this matter don't know the facts or misinterpret them on purpose ? In this case they would need to learn the truth ...

And Damaris, you asked about CsV's ears? Why some CsVs seem to have even bigger ears than the German Shepherds have. Well, I guess that the ears are not bigger than these GSD's ears were that were used to create a CsV. CsV has a different head form than GSD which makes their ears look bigger. It seems often that female CsVs have bigger ears than male dogs. It is because females have often a very slim head; males are more masculine and their head is broader and this makes the ears look smaller.

Regards, Minna

To Minna and every one
 

Yes - that's my opinion. Even the highest authorities such as th Agricultural Department who are in charge of these matters don=B4t know when I ask them. I have spent hours of a number of telephone calls and emails demanding facts in binding documents on this. Most of my mails are still unanswered. The ones answered directs me to some other person or authority, and when I call them they say very promply at first that "wolf hybrids are not allowed" and when I ask for written documents they can't present any. I have found several parliamentary documents where it says that they want to stop these dogs before something really bad happens, but still the only law I have found is the one saying that wolf pups or pups with one parent wolf are restricted, i e first and second generation. They don't even know where to begin searching for legislations! In the mail I got yesterday, the official says; "we consider" animals of up to 4th generation as too much wolf... but I sent immidiately a mail back to him asking for written laws instead of their "considerations". This was yesterday and I wait eagerly for an answer. The individuals I know personally with half wolf and others with part wolf are so hard for people in general to distinguish from any dog mixture that can appear that they could pass for any dog of unknown origin. The knowledge of the people of the authorities is no different from the knowledge of most people it seems. They wouldn't be able to distinguish the wolfdogs from any other dog if they saw them. I'll get back to you as soon as I get anything to report.

Sanna

To Minna and every one
 

Hello Sanna,

Maybe it is best not to wake the "sleeping dogs! (that's a general attitude in Holland i sometimes think). Now it is still a grey aera and many people/dogs can get away with it that they have a half wolf/half dog. Once the authority must act officially on this isseu then there can be a not so good outcome for the wolfdogs. I know that is sounds redicilous but sometimes that is the way it goes. I can think of only one reason that it should be investigated and that is when there are serious problems with bite incidents from these wolfdogs. But i think that is not the case here. In my country most bite incidents are from golden retriever dogs...you know.. the ever kind and willing dog who comes in family homes because of that reason and then they don't have any knowledge of dogs and children for that matter. Well anyway, it just a remark on your very interesting mail!

best of luck,
Marja.

To Minna, Marja and every one
 

Exactly! When I ask them how I can be sure that "my crossdog of any origin" can pass for not being a wolfdog of less than 5 generetions, I get no answer... People has very little knowledge of whatever dogs , and like so the authorities.

In any case - those of you who are able to present a pedegree of 5th generation and forth - you cannot be stopped whatsoever in Sweden as long as you follow the regulations for any dog. That I have in writing from the man in charge in the Agricultural authorities. 5th generation and forth are considered as "100% dog"! ;-)

And what you write about Golden Retrievers - we have exactly the same story here in Sweden. I have seen statistics of dog bites from the hospitals in the whole country - Goldens tops them all..and just for the reasons you mentioned...sad. Families regard them as cute little living puppets and doesn=B4t realize they are hunting dogs who needs hard work and mental stimulance.

Sanna