wolf percentage
 

hi every one, i was wondering about the percentage of wolf blood in a cwd and how many generations it would take before there wasnt any left, as your not aloud them over here unless there isnt wolf blood in them so it has to be below 1 percent. any idea how many generations that would take. thanks;-)

Hi Tikaani, I dont undertand, why is so interesting blood percentage ? Its only pure mathematic number and have nothing to do with genetic, exterior or character of dog.

im interestedas to how many generations itll take for thwere to be no more wolf blood as over here your not aloud any wolf blood in a dog, but if cwd has got to the point were there wasnt any wolf blood in the generation then you would be aloud one tecnacly, not interested in looks or anything like that, purly hyperthetical, so do u know? thanks

It have nothing to do with generations or wolfblood percentage. Just in first generation can be puppies, there have typicaly signs (exterior, character) of CsW and on other side in 3rd generation can be puppies, which have typically signs of pure wolf or pure GSD. Very generally can say, that pure breed is recognised in this time, when just absolutelly majority of population have typicaly signs according standard (and of course enought variable and big population). Its absolutelly doesnt matter how many generations.

defra unfortunatly do it a diferant way over here where it goes down every generation, thats why i was askin if you knew how many generations it would take as after a certian amount it would mean it would be legal to have them over here, which means we could work on gettin them recognised here which would be beter for the breed. if any one else knows can u please let me know, thanks:)

Remarkable question, tikaani :rock_3
CSWs are mated with CSWs - so the mathematical percentage can never be zero.

Very understandable, though :)
In Norway the CSV is banned and the Saarloos is not based on mathematial fact that the CSV is the youngest breed of the two and hence more upredictable due to the higher content of "wolfblood".

Hi Per Olav :)

could you please explain it again? Maybe it´s too late (or I´m too old 8)) to understand.

cheers
Angelika

Sure :)

The Norwegian Governments decission of banning the CSV was based on a assertion by the Norwegian Ministry of Justice. The Ministry says that based on the fact that the Saarloos originating from a first mating between wolf and dog by the early 1930ties and the origin of the CSV by a first mating by mid 1950ies the percentage of wolfblood of the CSV is the highest one. The higher percentage wolfblood = more unpredictable/dangerous breed.

Thank you, Per Olav :) From this point of view it´s understandable (but not logical).

cheers
Angelika

It's very funny for me :lol::lol::lol: and for all people who knows something about SAW and CZW. Ministry of Justice is really expert :rofl3.

But I dont understand, why you need it ??? CsW is not hybrid, not wild animal. CsW is a normally recognised dogs breed. Defra do it by e.g. GSD, shar-pei or boxer as well ? How ? All dogs (and not only dogs - all pets) have some part of "wildblood", but today is it never more the question, because are domesticate. And if somebody want to cross pure breed with wild animal, its no sense do it privat. And if somebody want to create new breed, must have a good project for it, all arguments why, and how, then is never more problem, because then get a special permission and nobody will counting a "wolfblood percentage".

You don´t understand, or you do not want to?

CSW is normally recognised dog breed by FCI. UK is not member of FCI, therefore they don´t care, which dog breeds FCI recognises or not. Imagine, that world does not end with borders of FCI! So if in UK they decide they don´t recognise a breed, that´s it.

On the other side, I spoke about the UK problem few days ago with my husband, who actually happens to know the DEFRA guys, who are responsible for the CSW problem. And surprise surprise, they say there is no problem with CSW in UK! They told him they do realise, CSW is a breed and they have no problem with the dogs comming to UK or staying.

Which makes me think, that the whole circurs about CSW´s being banned in UK was only Paul Winder´s trick, how to be in the middle of attention and how to be the first one (and only one) to have CSW in UK.

This whole debate about wolf percentage is then absolutely irrelevant. There was never a problem in bringing CSW into UK and no problem with wolf blood percentage (which is complete nonsense, anyways).

However, as we learned recently very disturbing news about Pacino´s kennel, it is very possible, that the problems with DEFRA or the breed be really banned can now happen easily. And frankly, I would not be surprised at all.

Mirka, I dont understand really. Pibull is not recognised breed as well and ask somebody about his "wolfblood percentage" ? Why by CsW ?

I have had this feeling, that DEFRA is not stupid organisation :D , then why would need such "wolfblood percentage" ? I feel, what you said, that this is problem of some owners and breeders in UK. Why and what they doing with CsW, i doesnt know, but it will be very nice from all, who will us inform about the situation.

have you the number and the name of the person you spoke to from defra, as i would like to contackt them and ask there opinion on this as iv had conflicting statments from them, thank you.;-)

Perhaps because 50 years ago, pitbull was not directly involved with pure wolf? :roll: And as far as pitbull is concerned, the breed has already enough banns and restrictions on its head, even without wolf blood percentage.
Is it really so hard to understand, that in some countries, the authorities have a strong syndrome of Red Ridding Hood, being affraid of anything too natural?
Having lived in Belgium for 4 years now, my opinions on this madness about CSW and wolf blood percentage haven´t changed, but seeing the way people think here, having read arguments on foreign forums, even UK one´s, I can understand it better.
It is neccessary to open your eyes, look beyond your own yard and country, see how people act there and think, then you can perhaps understand, how can some country come with such restrictions or ideas.

It was not me, but my husband, who is involved in regulatory affairs area. If you PM me your e-mail, I can put you in contact with my husband, he can explain you things better and perhaps he has the contacts you ask for. I only know he had met the people on one of his foreign conferences on very different matter, but went to discuss on wolfdogs with them during the break ;)

Mirka, I agree with you 100%. We all know that several CSVs have lived happily in the UK and their owners have had no problems. Still breeding is another issue. If DEFRA legitimised the breed they would have to allow CSV breeding, which at this point would be too risky, in DEFEA's opinion.

In my opinion they're using this ridiculous argument as excuse for not willing to recognise the breed. The real reasons lie elsewhere but are difficult to be formulated in legal terms.

***

I feel we've been morally abused by Paul in that sense, that majority of European CSV lovers for a few years supported his ideas and claims, and were ready to listen with goodwill to what he had to say, only to find in the end that he was using this site solely for adveritsing his litters, and we cannot even be sure now if there were pure CSV litters :evil:

I personally feel very, very disppointed, Paul. :cry::cry::cry:

Yes, we do. Idefinite number of generations. For two reasons:
1. There will always be wolf genes if CSVs are crossed only with CSVs. Genes do not evaporate with time... it is not alcohol :twisted:

Their statistical percentage may vary in particular dogs depending on mathematical calucations but that doesn't mean anything. There is more to genetics than figures... a higher wolf blood percentage CSV may be very much like an ordinary dog, and a low wolf blood percentage - more independent, shier, etc. depending WHICH genes were activated in a specific match, i.e. gene combination.

But you need to remember that in the Pohranicny Straze Military Kennel methodical work was carried out towards selection of dogs that would be as doggish, trainable and work-loving as GSDs, and as healthy and strong as wolves. Although nobody cared for their appearanace, there were no random matchings! The first hybrids were trained for work and later tested. Those that did not pass the working tests were eliminated from breeding. The animals of the strongest 'wolfish' nature (most independent and shy) were simply NOT used for further breeding, because they were useless for service, however some of their genes remained in the population and their remote "echos" now contribute to the differences among particular CSVs

That's why people who know the breed put so great emphasis on the need to train CSVs and give them opportunity to work - this is the most basic selected element of their nature and at the same time the most valuable trait of their character. It's just a great pity that some people do not understand this and treat them as show dogs only. I agree with Hanka that it's a geat waste of their potential.

2. There are plenty of wolf genes in every dog of any breed. If this was not the case wolves and dogs could not be mixed with each other. If wolves' genes were to be eliminated from dogs, all dogs would have to be exterminated :evil:

hi i understand about the wolf blood never leaving the blood line but if defra looked at it like that we wouldnt be aloud any dogs over here, what im lookin for is a hyperthetical responce kinda. like if the bood percentage is 50/50 the next generation is 25 etc, this is how defra do it not my idea. but tecnicaly after a certain amount litters the percentage would be 0, would it not? and if that is so, tecnicaly we would be aloud them over here

But, the thing is, technically you are ALLOWED to have them there! :lol:
Perhaps breeding is a different issue, I do not know about that, because I think my husband was more asking about the problem of actually bringing CSW into UK and having it there. Not sure if he asked about breeding, too.

To obtain such hypothetical dissapearance of wolf genes you'd need to breed CSV with ordinary dogs.... So carry on: 50/50, 25/75, 12,5/87,%, 6,25/93,25 ... etc. :) Pure maths, isn't it?

Just to find out in the end that any dog's DNA differs from wolf's DNA by 1% or something like this. :twisted::twisted::twisted:

But in this case we don't talk of CSV breeding any more, because a CSV pup must be born from CSV parents. 8)

Sorry, I made a mistake. The highest wolf genes amount in CSV is around 30%, so you need to start from 30/70 ;-):p :lol:

I think, wolfdogs have not over 30%.

simple question - simple answer:
a csw with 32 % who is mated with a csw having 28 % do have pups 32 % + 28 % = 60 % : 2 = 30 %.
If this "child" of 30 % will be mated with another csw of 34 % = 64 % : 2 = 32 %.

So again you will never reach zero.

cheers
Angelika

Very interesting - thank you, Mirka :)

I think two issues are being mixed here:
1. the genetics
2. the distance from the last "fresh" wolf blood insertion, which has nothing to do with genetic calculations or percentages.

I don't belive people in DEFRA are that ignorant as to think that after 100 generations of matching CSV with CSV the GSD's genes would be earased from them, so why should the wolf's be? Maybe they think that if for several generations the dogs "behaved themselves" it would mean the 'wilderness' in them was tamed, but this argument is even more absurd in the light of the possibility of breeding "dangerous" breeds and the fact that even the Yorshire terrier may be a wild beast if badly socialised and treated.

I think DEFRA people don't want to legitimize the breed for totally different reasons, which I think I understand now better than before.

Still, it has nothing to do with allowing CSVs to travel to or to live in the UK to which there are no barriers other than for other breeds/dogs.

Sure, Rona, you are right (as always :)), but I think this is what tikaani wants to know. Maybe I´m wrong.

kind regards
Angelika

Whole "wolfblood percentage" counting is absolutelly stupidity, because it says NOTHING. Its like you counting settlement density in country and you are supriced, that average density is 12 people/sqkm and you dont see so much people in forrest. "Wolfblood percentage" is pure aritmethic number. Have nothing to do with breed.
Rona write it correct. Every dog have some percentage of wilf animal, from which came in the past. But nobody can conting it, because is not the dates. Maybe some boxers or shitzu have more "wildblood percentage", than CsW, but nobody can counting it. And clearly mathematic - all dogs have 100% "wildblood", because dogs came not through crossing wild animals with some space creatures, but all dogs came from domestication wild animals only. This is differency between "domestication" and "wilfblood counting", whats many people dont want understand.

Angelika, to tell you the truth, I still don't know what tikaani wants to know;-): whether wolf's genes will ever disappear from CSVs, if CSVs are allowed to live in the UK or if/when DEFRA will legitimize the breed and open stud books for CSVs in the UK.. :lol::lol::lol:

Tikanni, I'm afraid only DEFRA is in a position to answer the last question, and I doubt if they're willing to. 8)

after chating to local council about the mater, there opinion is that thay have no guidelines for this mater and that as it would be to hard to prove that there was wolf blood in them if they dint know about them then they wont do anything about it. they also sead that some one needs to get there finger out and supply a guide line on this breed to defra and get all councils to follow the same guide lines. they seemed quite excited about the cwd ( in a good way ) and sead if there were more over here then we would have more chance to get them legalised over here. Very nice man;-). thanks for all the possitive and negative info you all have supplied.

Hello

according to how thay count in the US, GSD has 0% Wolfblood.
Mixing Wolf = 100% Wolfblood whit GSD = 0% gives a Hybride (F1)on 50% Wolfblood.

If mixing this Hybrid whit a GSD you have 50% + 0% / 2 = 25% Wolfblood on generation 2 (F2).

If DEFRA wonts to count like thay do in the US generaton 5 (F5) in the year 1989 when FCI allowed the breed international was only 1,56% Wolfblood.

Maby this Mathematical system can be used by DEFRA to :lol:

Best Regards / Mikael

Yes it is stupidety to count Wolf Blood I agree, and so does most of the breeders to.

But way do you have it on the Planned Litter then ??? comfusing buyers ???
especially when it ses "Data not available" or "Only fore Registred users.

In the text on this site it ses that it is a Hybrid mix from the begining, but nothing about that the hybrid after this was crosst only whit GSD from generation F2-F5 intill FCI allowed the breed as CsV in 1989, or am I wrong ???

If you would write this in the HISTORY maby people / gowerments don´t have to ask or worry about the Woof Blood ? less try to count ?

Swedish Kennel Club had exactly this argument to not allow the breed in there pedigee book fore years "it ses on the international website that it is a Hybid mix."

Best Regards / Mikael :)

As it was mentioned several times earlier in some other threads, the idea of putting the wolfblood percentage was mainly for fun, more out of curiosity rather than anything else. Probably also because it was possible to calulate it for each single CSV. But there is no reason to treat it as an argument for or against the breed or find it more exciting than e.g. Wright's coefficient...:roll:

Przemek, I suggest that when reconstruting the database, instead putting the wolfblood, you should put the GSD blood percentage. People with the Little Red Riding Hood syndrom will probably not even notice it and the CSVs owners will still have their 'gadget' :p:lol:

Oh, come on Mikael....:( How many times has it been written on this forum, that CSV are not hybrids but dogs, let alone this thread!!! A few posts earlier I wrote that in any CSV wolf genes will never be higher than around 30% and Hanka confirmed this.... I know there are people who have the habit of reading only the last post in a thread and replying to it, but I don't think that's our problem...

Maybe Swedish Kennel Club should employ people who are more internet literate and bother to read the history of the breed (top left part of the screen, next to breed standard) before making any official statements?...:roll:

Even better, Swedish Kennel Club should employ people smart enough to contact the breed clubs of Czechoslovakian wolfdog in the countries of origin, when in doubts about the origin of the breed or its history.
To make statements or impose laws on a dog breed on the basis of what is written on somebody´s private website is totally ridiculous! :twisted:

Don’t worry Rona I know :lol:

And I can agree that the Swedish Kennel Club did not wont to find out, but if they would read the History they would not have find out that the CsV are mostly GSD would they ???

And Rona seriously do you really think that a government can make a decision after have red something on a Forum, they need Facts not Gossip.

And if it say it clearly in the History, way do people from England ask you think ??? Thay know rather god English I believe.

And way do you think that the Clubs or Governments in Norway, Sweden and England have hard to find this Facts ???

It’s pretty easy to write nowadays CsV Wolf Blood is well under 30 %, or ???

And I’m enormously curious hove they counted when they decided CsV was between 25-30% Wolf Blood ???

I have met pure Hybrids on both 50 % and 75 % Wolf Blood, and believe me its more than a normal CsV owner can handle, compered to those Hybrids CsV are in my eyes not more then a dog whit a very little % Wolf Blood, maybe not more than 5-10% or 90-95% GSD if you prefer. :lol:

Very Best Regards / Mikael

I'm afraid you're expecting too much from people who think that with time genes mixed with similar genes will disappear from the genotype ... :evil_lol

No, I don't. I think the authorities in your country, in Norway and the UK do not want to legitimise the breed for totally different reasons, which are hard to be formulated in legal terms. It's easier for them to use artificial arguments about wolfblood and play "fools" in genetics, than admit openly: "we're afraid that CSV breeding might fall into hands of dishonest & irresponsible, greedy people, "wolf maniacs" who will start producing unpredictable wolf hybrids and our country will start having problems similar to those there are in the US". No institution could make an official statement like this, i.e. accuse the citizens of POTENTIAL dishonesty and ill will.

It was explained earlier - this is pure maths. Nothing to do with the dogs' behaviour or features of character. Almost every dog can be matched with a wolf, so their genotypes must be very much alike. Exactly like Pavel, I don't understand WHY this unfortunate wolfblood percentage causes so much excitement! The authorities should be more concerned with the problems of dogs bred for dog fighting or mistreated by their owners.

I agree. But where is the problem then? 30% or 5% - does it matter at all if ALL dogs are 99% wolfish?

Personally I'm internally convinced CSVs are a few-percent wolves in behaviour and 70-75% or even more in appearance:rock_3:p
Who dares to disagaree with me? :lol::lol::lol:

Yes that is what I think to, but there is a problem state that CsV are up to 30 % Wolf, sens people know aboute the problems whit 50% Wolf Hybrids is US and Canada.

The Norwegian and English governments used a report from the US and compared Saarloos and Cs Wolfdogs whit the Hybrids in the US, and certain Wolfdogs was up to 98% Wolf, but in this report they call all Hybrids and High content Wolfdogs only "Wolfdogs", and sens (we) say CsV are up to 30% Wolf now CsV and Saarloos are not allowed there any more.

There fore counting Wolf Blood is not fore fun in my eyes :(

Regards / Mikael

In our country, and more specifically, states, there has been the struggle of what the legal definition of a wolfdog, or wolf hybrid is. Some states continue to outlaw hybrids, but I know from speaking to a family in one of those states, the government allows the CSV, since it has documentation that it is a dog. My state (Virginia) leaves it to the city or county to govern hybrids - you must have an exotic animal permit (and meet health/safety requirements) to legally keep a hybrid (of course, many are kept illegally in the US, though not in my city). I am NOT required to have a permit for our CSVs...they are registered DOGS.

Part of the question for the US government, or court, or animal control officer I think is: Who determines what a dog is - the kennel club, a veterinarian, green aliens from spaceships? I think our governments are smart (in this tiny instance) to recognize that there are organizations with more knowledge than themselves (such as AKC, or a veterinarian) to know what a dog is. Our AKC reciprocates registry with the FCI - if FCI calls it a dog, so does the AKC. The FCI called the CSV a dog in 1982, then AKC trusts, it is a dog (we just don't have enough CSVs here yet to have full AKC breed recognition). Dog x dog = 100%dog
Just in case our government had any questions, they look to the American Humane Society, who says anything after F5 is a dog - our dogs are several generations past...

Our new neighbors through the forest are not so easy to convince!8)

I think our breed is just very honest about our "roots", for better or worse - all breeds, if you go back in the history many decades or hundreds or thousands of years, would say a wolf was crossed with dog, or humans selected traits of wolves to use...blah, blah, blah - this history is not as important to other breeds as what queen owned it first, etc. Obviously in terms of conformation and purpose, the wolf was an important component to our CSVs - but the component, through the art and science of breeding has been controlled to only the "usable" qualities..

Well I do disagree a little ;) in a sense that all the CSV I met were rather unpredictable and really cannot be compared with GSD. I mean I cannot think to walk off leash in a city or let my little boy with my CSV, things I could do 100% truthful with my GSD. So CSV are in my opinion rather specials dogs (and I think it's protecting them to highlight this point). But I also can agree that I met only not good specimen and failed the education of my CsV mix.

About wolf blood %, even with wolf gene % we would not be able to conclude a lot as it's a non-linear process (+ only few genes are involved triggering a specific hormone responsible for adult behaviour (genes highly inhibited in dogs)).

Dogs are socially well fitted for human world, wolves not, where are located the CsV ? : http://dusk.geo.orst.edu/lydia/doggies_science.pdf

Well, I see your point now. But what makes the difference between a dog breed and dog/wolf hybrid is the level of predictability of the animal's appearance, character and behaviour. In case of CSV an exteremly tough and fast process of SELECTION for specific features took palce for several years. It was completed with a detailed breed standard and the establishmet of the breed. In in case of wolf/dog hybrids - there was no such targeted selection.

When getting a CSV the potential owner knows what animal he might expect (more or less ;-)) . When buying a wolf/dog hybrid of any wolf blood content either 98% or 5%- he/she may expect anything - from a wolf to a dog or any combination of these.

You're absolutely right. Several elements seem to work "against" the breed: the term "wolfdog" itself, the clear and open attitude to the breed "history", the opennes of the owners/breeders about problems with pups' upbringing & dog training, not to mention the health problems, etc. etc.

But we have to choose: either we'll openly share information about the breed and particular dogs, honestly cooperate internationally at he level of clubs and particular owners, listen to each other and openly discuss various issues without prejudce OR spend time on anticipating what authorities in various countries think or may think and be bothered by that... :roll: I don't consider the second attitude practical and I did explain the reason - we can never be sure what the authorities really think and what their true intentions/policies are.

I think that Per Olav's approach - the informative hard work 'at the bottom' is the best way to deal with institutional obstacles: people are scared of the unknown. When they get to know CSVs, see how the animals live and function in life, how predictable, and honest their owners are and how transpaent the breeding is (DNA, health tests etc. etc.)- they will be "domesticated" and stop treating CSVs and their masters as potential social threats. :p

Well, I didn't say they were 100% GSD, did I? I said they were a few-percent wolves in behaviour :p .

Besides, don't get discouraged too easily. We could trust Tina 100% in the woods/fields when she was 2 or 3, but in middle of the city - only when she was about 9-10 years old. :rock_3

Yes I have the same experience whit my AUS cattledog to, working dogs are often to lively (wild) to run lose in the city as puppy’s and adults to.
I could have my Cattledog lose in Stockholm first at aboute 8 year of age, but lose in the country side already as a puppy.

But I trust CsV much more then GSD in general, GSD are guarding dogs and much more involved in fatal dog attacks them all Wolfdog breeds, even Hybrids, yes that’s a Fact not gossip, and in % of population.

Regards / Mikael

Sorry but I disagree absolutely in this point. I have now 20 years of experience as a vet with GSH and about 10 years as a behaviourist and dog trainer (my husbands some years longer) with GSH and CSW and I personally find CSW in general much more predictable with small children than GSH. GSH is one breed I never recommend as a family dog. Though you can´t say that in general - as you never can with any breed - GSH very often have, caused through a very stupid breeding strategy a very low level of response to prey-stimulis and I know many GSH that show preybehaviour on running and screaming kids even when they grew up with them. I never saw that reaction on a CSW that is used to children.
All not reliable CSW I saw where trained in a very stupid way or not proper socialised and I can compare several hundred worldwide.
I also find CSW more reliable in their reactions in general they don´t switch their emotions as fast as GSH and they don´t get that overexited on prey-stimulis.

GSH surely are easier to train and don´t question decisions of owners like CSW but that has nothing to do with reliability. The statistics of Mikael are the same in Germany, if their is a breed that should be on dangerous dog lists (what shouldn´t be with any breed) it should be the GSH.

Ina

By trusting Tina 100% I meant her walking unleashed in a busy street, turning her head other side and pretending she didn't see a cat.:lol: She was used to running unleashed in parks since she was a pup, but a trained GSD would come to the owner immediately when called. We had to call her ritually a couple of times before she'd turn up. This was her way of showing us her independent nature, saying "I'll come when I wish". 8)

My general observation was that when unleashed she was much more socially responsible - judged the situation and behaved rationally towards other dogs and people- usually approached them wagging her tail but sometimes, to avoid the encounter, she'd turn and pretend there were fascinating "stories" to smell.... When leashed she behaved more like a guard dog... not towards people, but other animals. When she was older, I definitely felt more relaxed when walking her unleashed than leashed. 8)

When working with my husband in the quarries/fields - she was disciplined and patient -no leash was needed at all. She acted the leader/hostess looking after her "pack" and she loved this role. When she disobeyed it always meant that she had a reason, e.g. was able to spot a dangerously hanging rock earlier than people.

If Tina was a typical representative of the breed (which I cannot be sure) my conclusion would be that CSVs are independant & exteremly strong-willed, but grow to be rational animals, provided they are given enough time, trust and opportunity to develop their "intellectual potential".

In 10 years time I'll let you know if my next dog confirms this opinion or not.:rock_3

Let me detail a little more. About children, CSV are rather more brutal in games than GSD (and get fast and high in pression and are more difficult than GSD to slow down), this way I don't "thrust" them with children.
About walking off leash in cities, it's not safe with CSV as something can disturb them or attract them so high that a step away is always possible (also true for other breed, but I did not see this level elsewhere). Also about the prey drive, I cannot compare CSV prey drive and GSD prey drive (also there're two types of prey drive, the "prey drive and stop" as for dogs working with herds sheeps, and the CSV have not an atavistic stop).
On these points I could thrust 100% my GSD ... maybe she was a unique specimen.

I also met a kind of elistic way of thinking among CSV world, if something goes wrong, the problem comes from the owner because failed on the perfect education line of his CSV... and it's often true, but it's because the CSV is very difficult to handle. So why breeders are always producing more and more CSV ? Number of people able to handle very well a CSV is growing ? It's not protecting the breed to say that CSV are more predicatable or as not difficult as XXX to handle ... Chatting with breeders, reading forums, there is too much this idea highlighted that CSV are not so difficult dogs or not so unpredictable, I have many testimonys of people that are in an impossible situation because they believe too much what was written in forums, and eventually they just cannot cope with their CSV, these famillies are suffering, and at the end this is the dogs who will suffering the most.
My little bet, take randomly 100 CSV, 100 GSD, 200 famillies, put one dog in each families ... I bet more GSD will be happy and more CSV will be unhappy. So, one would say, breeders make the difference choising well the familly ... wrong, they mostly care most about money. So protecting the CSV, is highlighting their difficults points and not the opposite.

Well I take this bet because I know this amount. You know what I think, if someone gets himself a CSW because he really wants something as wolflike as possible or if he gets himself a CSW because he want´s to win an IPO championship this is very likely to fail, the needs of the animal don´t meet the needs of the owner. The same if someone is not able to react selfconfident and cosequent to his dog, this doesn´t work out well too.
And I don´t agree with you on the forum, I never read here that CSW are easy going dogs, just people that think that they are special dogs like every other breed too, if this wouldn´t be the case there wouldn´t be breeds.
I wouldn´t let any of my dogs, of any breed I had, run free next to a crowded road, they are dogs not adult humans. But I do a lot of Mantrail-training in quite big cities, next to crowded roads, passing other barking dogs, my dogs work through traffic, passing dogs, people, cars, through restaurants in a highly concentrated manner, very reliable and much better than the Mallinois and GSH having trained with us.

I know a very good example of someone always saying he wasn´t told the truth. He tryed to get a dog from three experienced and responsible breeders, all three refused to give him one and told him to change to a different breed.
He insisted and got himself one of a breeder that doesn´t care about the place as long as the money works out. He got the promised problems due to his inability to cope with the needs of the dog, he has the opinion that is due to wolf behaviour and hyperactivity, he of course didn´t make any mistakes. He got himself a second one second hand, very bad socialised still very shy till today, that is for him now a CSW out of a "dogtyp working line". He has three other dogs of other breeds, one dog he owned before had to be replaced out of behavioural problems, one of the three may be replaced by know, I don´t know for sure.
If you see him and his dogs they show a behaviour against other dogs my five CSW wouldn´t even dare to think about.
Is this due to not being told the truth? No, the reason is the combination of a unrealistic, irresponsible puppybuyer and a greedy breeder, nothing else. Is this a owner problem? Yes I think so, his first CSW was replaced for some time, I saw it several times, a difficult dog due to his upbringing but a total difference in obidience and general appearance. If you tell him that he will answer that the second owner didn´t take the dog outside that simply is untrue there are a lot of people that know that.

Are CSW are easy going dogs? No, not in general but I know much more difficult and very old breeds they just don´t have the bad luck to have such a big attraction on the wrong people.

Coming back to being too hard playing with children: It is in your responsibility to teach the dog borders in play. Two of our puppies came to very small children around two years of age, they played rude with everybody else but never with those children, one of our dogs had a owner that took her to work with in a home for children, never any problems...

You see there are very good examples for both points of views, again, like in all breeds.

Ina

Very true! :cool3

I often wonder if this website causes problems with our dogs being seen as the dogs they are, and NOT hybrids (especially in the US, where people believe everything they read on Wikipedia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_hybrid

Maybe it is hard for uneducated people to believe that our dogs are not considered hybrids when they google in "wolf hybrid", this link appears first, and the first image underneath the heading "wolf hybrid" is Jolly...

The site does go to explain the dog breeds that have used wolves near the end, but I think it could still be easy to make a mistake if you were not familiar with the CSV:frown:

See the original text - it has nothing to do with wolf hybrids.: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechos...owacki_wilczak

Wikipedia can be edited by anybody, thus it's good you've noticed it! I suppose the author(s?) will react after returning from the camp.

Yes, we have a similar site in English...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakian_Wolf-dog

But this is also wrong in some parts I see - it says that the breed originated in Germany:stupid, calls it the Czech Wolfdog...and also has a whole section on the "UK controversy" something that is not very important to English speakers in the US, but I guess maybe to people in UK...of course if you click scroll down to "External links" at the bottom of the page, and click on the "3" or "4", you are redirected to http://ukwolfdogs.com/first.html and http://www.hebrideanwolfdogs.com/, so this reference to the UK begins to make sense...I think someone from the UK had a part in making the Wikipedia entry

I am curious about these 2 dogs...I think maybe there is some CSV here, but it is never mentioned...
http://www.hebrideanwolfdogs.com/about.html

Hmmm...now I am understanding the English confusion with our DOGS being "hybrids" even more...

But maby we are to move this discuss to Health of the breed ?

Regards / Mikael

Don´t think so. It´s a strangely kind of reducing the wolf(blood) percentage :evil:

Thanks :love

In the Scandinavian countries the term "wolf hybrid" is a tense one, and as we all now incorrect - genetically spoken. Wolf hybrids are outlawed in Scandinavia and in Norway free living "hybrid" individuals are shot to death. If my wishes came true the History of the CSV should be re revised, or at least the "hybrid" term should be replaced with the more correct cross-breed og someting similar.
--
Per Olav

I think, maybe these dogs and breeders don't even really deserve discussion on this site. This site is devoted to purebred CSVs - they are no longer purebred CSVs, but mixed breeds - and IMHO, many are slowly losing the beautiful wolfish look of the CSV, (and who knows about character) so the whole "experimentation" becomes kind of silly...

I was just really upset as I came across sites stemming from the english wikipedia link this morning...and the mutant dogs of all kinds of wolf percentage

Our 2 dogs took a first place each in a fun match (during a local kennel club picnic) for fastest recall (command: come) from stay at 20 meters (Hronsek) and also fastest ability to track hidden treats (Anthea). :) In the "competition" were GSDs, Vizlas, Labradors and several types of terriers. Even more important, they were very open with other people and dogs of all sizes and behavior- my dogs prove more and more every day their very high DOG percentage!:biggrina

i think we have gone a bit if topic here/ it was only how dilouted the wolf blood percentage would be after severall generations, to help convince local council about them, but as usual it seems to have moved on to havin a go at people and not the designated topic, im graitfull for all the help but if people wish to discuse sertain kenals and there practacise please start youe own topics on the subject. thank you

With my last post, I hoped to end the possible discussion, or arguments of breeding practices of "certain kennels", that I unintentionally started. That road has already been traveled down, I believe.

I think I was trying to express my fear... the day when someone, maybe a little further down the road, thinks it wise to register their "mix" that looks very much like a CSV, in the CSV registry in their country, and begins breeding it in. This is possible in the US with the AKC, I don't know about elsewhere...after 3 generations of breeding "look - alikes", the puppies can breed and compete as a member of the breed, even with an incomplete pedigree 3 generations back. At this point, who knows what the "percentage of wolfblood" is? I think Americans would be very likely to look to the UK for dogs, since there are no language barriers. Paul claims he has already sent some here. The UK, as an owner in the US, is a place I watch closely, as it may impact my life eventually.

Initially, I was very supportive of the UK efforts of people I saw on this site. I think our US government has a history of looking to the UK government when it comes to many affairs; it could be beneficial to us one day for DEFRA to have a level of agreement, familiarity and comfort with the breed, and those that promulgate it within the UK, in the event the US government or special interest groups decide to question the breed, which has not happened here yet, thankfully.

I am still very supportive of anyone that breeds or owns these dogs with only the best intentions of protecting the breed in the UK, and fights for it's status. But when it becomes apparent that there are examples of UK CSV breeders, or American breeders (none...yet), or anywhere else, that also plan mixed litters besides their advertised CSV litters - with wolves, other dog breeds, wolfdog "hybrids" - changing the "low percentage of wolf blood" in addition to all other factors...that poses the potential to harm the integrity of the breed...genetically, and in terms of decades of selective breeding practice...and is also a part of this thread of debate over what our dogs are comprised of.

It is difficult to be supportive of breeders who advocate for the breed and create mixes, which are the only UK examples I have seen on this site, other than you, Tikaani, who only own a CSV, and have not bred. Should you do so, I hope you do so with wonderful intentions. This thread was started, I believe, with the purpose of evaluating "how much wolf blood is in our dogs" not just out of curiosity, but for the purpose of finding a convincing argument for UK's DEFRA of how low it is. It is impossible to look at this question when it is seen that the two sides of this dichotomy of purebred and mixed breed are trying to be intertwined in several instances by some of the UK members on this site - as advertised on their websites. I don't believe the original founders of this breed argued before the FCI percentages of wolf blood to call their creation a dog breed, but rather standardization and usefulness of the breed - which is maintained through breeding practices.

Christian, I am not interested in your personal problems with Ina, but I´d like to say that I disagree with you on the points, that one has to have own children in order to have CSW good with children.

I have two females Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, and no children. Both my dogs love children, let themselves to be pet from them anytime, they tolerate even a poke in the eye from children or being stepped on by them. They are fantastic around little babies and always ready to guard the pram from passers by, even the child is not ours! I have had hundreds of children of all age petting my dogs (even not always with my permission), playing with them or even rolling with them on the ground. Never ever there was a problem.

I would not leave my wolfdogs alone with children, not because I do not trust my dogs, but because I do not trust the children. I believe that children and dogs, when they are together, should be always supervised, no matter on the dog breed.

I believe that if CSW is well socialised (which for me is the most important thing of all), it can handle well any situation, from screaming children to busy Sunday market or even a car crash.

Christian, please let your personal problems with Ina and Michael out of this topic.

Coming back to your original topic, as several people told you there is no way to find out how diluted the wolfblood will be as long as you only cross purebred CSW. This is a little bit special situation in this breed because if you normally talk of hybrids there are always a mixture of wolf with several breeds and even in the so called "breed" of AWD there are still wolfes used for crossing or different dogbreeds. CSW and SWH are as recognised breeds at least theoretically not longer mixed with other dogs or wolfes. That is a completely different situation. It is not possible to find out a dilllution in this case. There are countries like Australia that only ask for the F5-Generation.
I personally think the best way for this countries is to show that CSW are working dogs that are able to be trained for different uses.
We have several dogs with rescue-dog exams from the Swiss-Mountain-Rescue now in Germany (two of my own dogs too by the way) and we found out that if you talk about this possibility and show the dogs on those workshops you have two positive results: People realise that there are good working dogs in this breed what differs them from hybrids and the people getting attracted to the dogs are different ones to the ones that only want them for their look. Though it isn´t the reason for us to join this training, rescue work is a very positive seen work that makes the dog less dangerous in the view of the people and CSW really like this kind of work and are mostly very good in it.
I think Per Olavs way to show what the breed is able to do is on long terms the best way to get it accepted in those countries.
I definetly can say that all times our CSW showed up on those workshops or on their film-dog work they got very positive feed back of all people working with dogs and very many had a totally different view of them before.

Ina

Yes I think you are right, ones you show people way Wolf was mixt into the breed and they understand it is not fore the look, but fore the distance of runing, tracking, there intelligence and indipendent thinking they start to look at the breed in a different way.

Hronec and I will go are first tracking course this autmn, but we stated hes training a long time ago when he was only 13 weeks old. Only smal distance and fore fun of course.

But If DEFRA wont to compare CsV whit AWD they are in my opinion to count in the same way, and by count the US way CsV are not more than 1,56-2,3 % pure Wolf Blood.

But in my opinion non of the mathematical systems are correct.

Regards / Mikael & Hronec

It can´t be correct because there is no possible way to count wolf genes of crosses out of the pairing of crosses.

Mikael I think you are mistaken, in the history of breeding of CSW, after the F3 generation most of the pairing was between CSW, not back to GSD (and there were actually also couple of pairings back to wolves Argo, Sarik and F1 Kazan). The "blood percentage" is indeed around 25% in all CSW, but of course due to rigorous selection the CSW do not behave as typical 25% wolf-content "hybrids" would.

--- End of response to Mikael ---

The wolf-blood content is a number saying something meaningful only to the lovers of Jack London (I am still proudly one of them) and other romantic literature, it is something we like about our dogs, as we love their looks, but any responsible owner and breeder still puts at least as much (if not more) stress on the dog's character and behavior.

Other than that, no sane person uses this number, just as no sane person counts how much blood of Atilla the Hun is in any Hungarian. Physical and character traits are after all not passed from generation to generation by blood, but by oocytes and sperm.

:laugh2_2 LOL - Yes!

Yes you are right I was wrong according to the US mathematical system the CsV are 3,12-4,68 % Wolf blood !!!

But I think you are wrong to :), when mixing a F3 whit Wolf you are not at generation 4 (F4) you are back at generation 1 from Wolf (F1), but this Generation 1 (F1) has more Wolf blood than a normal F1 Hybrid.


Quote
Author: Pavel, Translation: Mirkawolf
"The CzW is crossbreed of german shepherd and a carpatian wolf. Next generations after this crossbreeding have only codes F1-F4 (F1 is the first generation with 50% of wolf's blood, F2-F4 are just generations crosbreeded with german shepherd only). The finall generation is the 5th with less than 25% of wolf's blood, this generation is CzW. Simply is possible to say, that the CzW must have about 30% of wolf's blood. All other crossbreed are not CsV, but F1-F4 and this individuals are not part of FCI recognised breed."

I think the text by Pavel is correkt if you are back at F1 when crossing a F3 whit a Wolf again, and if crossing CsV whit CsV that are for example F4 there litter is also F4. or am I wrong ???

But I don´t understand how the Wolf blood can be as high as 25%-30% if the F1 is 50% Wolfblood = Wolf 100% X Dog 0% = 100/2=50% Wolfblood.

The US matematical system for Wolfblood works like this to, but than according to this system the CsV are to be only 3,12-4,68%.

PLEASE explain how they count out the CsV breed Wolf bood anybody !!!

This is how the US system works I think...

Wolf=100% Wolf Blood and Dog = 0% Wolf blood.
add together the Wolf blood percetage of each parent =100x0=100, then divide by two to get the Wolf blood of the litter, 100/2= 50% Wolf blood at generation 1 (F1).

So as I understand it must be like this...

Generation 1 (F1) = 50% Wolf blood
Generation 2 (F2) = 25% Wolf blood
Generation 3 (F3) = 12,5%Wolf blood
Generation 4 (F4) = 6,25% Wolf blood
Generation 5 (F5) = 3,12% Wolf blood CsV wery little Wolf Content Wolfdog.

Or if you mix a F1 whit Wolf like on Blood Line 4 the new F1 litter is 75% Wolf blood = High Contant Wolfdog.

Generation 1 (F1) = 75% Wolf blood
Generation 2 (F2) = 37,5% Wolf blood
Generation 3 (F3) = 18,75% Wolf blood
Generation 4 (F4) = 9,37% Wolf blood
Generation 5 (F5) = 4,68% Wolf blood CsV wery little Wolf Contant Wolfdog.

But the real problem according to me is that there are Clubs and gowernment compering the number of Wolf blood between CsV and AWD, when (we) aperantley do not count the same way in Europe and US. or are (we) and I´m missing something ???

Wery Best Regards / Mikael :Help_2

This works only if you take wolf and several GSD and then cross the wolf with one GSD, cross the F1 with second GSD, cross the F2 with another GSD and so on. BUT the crossing of CSW was different. I don't remember it exactly, but I know that there were CSW/GSD and CSW/wolf crossing later, and lot of F3/F3 pairings, or CSW/F3 pairings (if by CSW you understand >F3) etc., so you cannot calculate linearly. For example, my first bitch had wolf in the 4th generation (directly in the paper pedigree) twice and three times in the 5th generation, always as a pair to a CSW or F3 bitch. Unfortunately now the database does not work completely and I don't have complete pedigrees available, but otherwise you would be able to see that it indeed does have quite a lot of wolf blood, because the last wolf was added later than the last GSD.

But as I said before, all these numbers do not mean anything real. It only means that for example if there is a gene which is completely unique for wolf, which every wolf has and no dog has, that a 20% content CSW has a 20% probability that it has the same gene, and that is valid only if there was absolutely no selection (natural or by breeders) for or against this gene. If the creators of the breed liked this gene, than CSW has very high probability that it has the gene (like light eyes, good coat, etc), if not, than it has low probability (shyness, inability to communicate with strange people).

Mikael, your example only works if you mate
F1, F2, F3 ... + dogs without wolfblood
but not
F1, F2, F3 ... + CsW
or
CsW + CsW
cheers
Angelika

Sorry, Saschia, I did not see your post.

Tanks fore the ansers

It looks like there is no easy anser on hove to count CsV Wolf Blood :)

the AWD system in US is easy but do not work, typical

But than Pavel are probablay right 25-30% Wolfblood it is.
But please tell me hove :lol: eaven if it is not easy

Regards / Mikael

Hello

I fund this exampel in a book about AWD Wolfdogs, so it seams thay count like that atleast in the US, when mating AWD whit AWD.

Quote from Living whit Wolfdogs by Nicole Wild, side nr 12.

"For example, a 75% wolfdog mated to a 25 % wolfdog would produse pups that are 50% wolf, since 75 plus 25 equals 100, divided by two equals 50."

Regards / Mikael

... and if you tell me the result of mating this 50 % AWD with a 75 % AWD you´ve got it, but - as everybody told before - it´s nothing else but maths :mrgreen:

hälsning
Angelika

Some examples for you, it's in french but maths are maths:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...91&postcount=6
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=12

Thanks fore all the Maths elf ang Philippe :lol:

So as I understand if this Maths are Correct some CsV from Blood Line 1 for emample the F5 dogs was only 3,12 % Wolf blood, and some eaven less the G7 had only 0,78 %

Some udder Blood lines had much more but I can not se any CsV at Generation 5 that realy has as much as 25-30%.

I do not understand French that well, am I missing something ???
Or is it safe to say that 25-30% Wolf blood are a over exaggeration and the real Wolf blood on a CsV are closer to 5 or 10% ???

Maby Philippe can anser this question in English ???

To every body
Please do not get me wrong I know it is only maths, but sens the Wolf blood is printed in text and some people / government look at thise numbers as Facts it is important that it is as correct as possible.

Regads / Mikael

I think the exact percentage, or more specifically the generations removed (away) from a wolf would be different for each CSV litter, unless a mating was repeated between 2 parents. Litters with lineage where an F1 was more recent (such as descendents of Kazan, I think) would maybe have a little more? There was a lot of line-breeding early on, so this would also have an impact.

Of course, specific genes are different within each puppy (just a like a human brother and sister with brown hair and blonde hair), even in the same litter, so the only real way to know would be to perform a DNA test on every CSV in the world.:lol:

yes, but even if you do complete sequencing, you still don't know what it means, if you do not know the function of the genes...
You can take for example three breeds - Owczarek Podhalanski, Kuvasz and Slovak Cuvac. If you genotype them, you would probably get quite nice differences, because they are three separate breeds which went through different bottlenecks and fixed different polymorphisms. But if you look at their character and exterior, you have three very similar dogs. On the other hand, if you had three different types of the same breed, like toy, middle and large poodle, if you genotyped them in the same time since their separation as the three previous breeds after their bottlenecks, you would get much less genetic difference, although you can clearly see physical difference (and maybe even character difference).

Again, you will get a number, which is actually interesting from the scientific and veterinary points of view, but this number still doesn't mean anything valuable from the point of authorities. It cannot persuade them that the dogs are reliable in human society, if they don't want to believe that and it cannot be used to say that the dog is actually dangerous for the society.