Differences in bonitations...
 

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland? :shock:

I have seen more dogs under the breed standard in the database :roll:.
And do have bonitation and claimed that they are breedable, and the bonitation was not in Poland :rock_3.

Groette Martine.

In Slovak 64 is OK for male.....sad but true.

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU.... :roll:

Don't forget one of the last bonitations in Prague made by 2 famous CzW judges and 2 Czech breeding comittee members where there were 10 males and ALL of them get descritpion "wrong indexes", one get "open lips" and one "untypical movement". ALL THESE are dysqualification faults for Czw. Untypical movement is additionaly VERY serious one .. but... ALL of these dogs get from CZECH breeding comittee notes "EXCELLENT" or "VERY GOOD". Not even one was P14...
Is there a different standard for CSW in Czech Republic? :shock:

NO....in Slovakia...if the dogs under the standard couldn't be P1 or P3!
64 cm tall male is not a breeding male!! He is under the standard!

Margo, I really don't understand.
Mirka's question was reasonnable.
To reply by commenting the wrong czech bonitations is not a reply, it's an attach.
Please open a new thread with Czech bonitation faults if necessary, but can you reply to the question? is 64cm allowed in Slovakia? it's important for our breed to know, don't you think? I don't care the name of the dog, really, he could be my own personal dog as it counts to me, but to know if 1cm tolerance is accepted during bonitation is important.
Is it possible, maybe, that this bonitation was not done according to slovak standards (JUST LIKE IN ITALY:evil::evil:) so it gets a nice X like italian ones?
I see no index format on the Bonitation codes as was done in Hronec.
Either the dogs all had perfect codes or the new slovak bonitation rules were not applied in poland.
Another question to answer. Sorry we ask you Margo because you organized the event.
Great pics by the way, it's clear you all had fun (damn me, why couldn't I come... I miss Zubrowka!)
massimo

Lol, can you tell me, which dogs with disqualifying faults I breed? I have one female 10 years old and spayed and other one P1 but with heavy dysplasia :lol:
I am not insane to breed on dogs with disqualifying faults!
The only thing I am breeding at home are mice, you can come and check them out :roll:

Way do we have bonitation at all if we dont follow the same rules ???

and now to me it seams that a show resalt would say more...

on a show a dog whit "Untypical movement" or "Open libs" would not get a god spot, I hope !!!

But I do realy think 64cm is not the bigest question, to me it is more important that the dogs that we breed on are healthy.

Regards / Mikael

As far as I know sometimes dogs with 1 cm (!) under standart high are bonitated - if they don´t have other faults - and allowed to breed once under special control of the offsprings. The reason is that many small dogs have offspring of normal high (and the other way round).
Something that I find quite sensible, as Mikael I think there are more important things than 1cm of heigh and I think bad movements for example are of much higher importance for the breed itself.
Another questions is if the dog should get a P3 or P5 then.

And I personally think it is more than time to stop the very stupid discussion if the Czech Club is doing things better or the Slovakian one. The same started in the health topic, the Slovakian Club has a breeding comission like the Czech has and the wonderful Czech breeding comission has made some decisions I only can wonder about. Both countries have their problems and have made their faults. I am really fed up with this, it is of absolutly no benefit for the breed.
And there was a Czech member in the breeding comission as far as I can see.

Ina

In fact I do not see such a big problem in that 1 cm :roll: If a male has a good character, is brave, nice with people, moves good and is a typical CsV, that 1 cm is nothing :roll:

My point is, for what are the bonitations good then, if the results are not respected, or cannot be compared. If I cannot compare results from Pozna to results from CR or Slovakia or Germany or wherever, because there had been some excuses or changes made on either side, what good does it do to bonitate? How do we ever convince new owners of wolfdogs to bonitate, if they see the results are being manipulated, excused or cheated?

If we do not follow the standard anymore, then where will the breed end up?
Who is going to decide, if 1 cm up or down matters? Or maybe a tooth missing, or other disqualifying faults? The standard has been made for some reason. And I find it very benevolent already.

There is only so much disqualifying faults and if they are not respected, then soon the wolfdogs won´t look like wolfdogs anymore. For the friends of miniature wolfdogs, I have bad news - there is already a small dog breed existing, that looks like little wolfdog - it´s called Swedish Vallhund. So no new breeding in this direction is needed.

Puppy Swedish Vallhund: :cool3
http://www.geocities.com/fennican/ada.jpg

Vaiva, Ina.
I also agree that 1 cm should not change much in breeding.
My dog is 73cm and his father is P14... he is 64.5cm tall... 0.50cm below limit!
But this is not the point. I am not asking for opinions (I have my own), I'm asking for rules, facts.
Is 1 cm acceptable to give the dog a mark which is not P14 according to slovak breeding committee?
From what I knew it was ok for females (if below 60cm, it could be P5 if all the rest was ok) but for males it was strict.
But maybe i'm wrong, maybe this has changed!

I don't think that 1 cm will change much in the product the dog makes.
But...if the limiti is 65cm, he could get P14 and the breeding committe could decide, for certain females, if it is worth using that dog anyway.
It is not new that many czechs using males from other countries without bonitation because it is not a requirement in the country of origin.
From what I know it is not a requirement in ANY other country than Czech and Slovakia...so why should people bother to bonitate their dog after all?....
Why should stupid Italians bonitate their dogs if anyway somebody has decided that bonitation in Italy is not valid...
Better a dog from another country without bonitation than a dog from Italy with bonitation made by somebody's public enemy...
Why? because of the character test. But character test I saw in Slovakia was, according to my eyes (now personal opinion) less effective than the one made in Italy...
I'm fed up with this long time ago Ina...
massimo

I don´t want to start here with Charactertests it will bring us very much off topic. But maybe the owner or the breeder of the dog or the breeding comission can explain why they decided to give it a P3.

Charactertest will bring us totally of topic because then we will have to discuss the difficulties in doing it with defense trained dogs and not defense trained ones and using both behaviour in messurement and in the test itself. I have seen both versions and for me as a behavourist the so called "real threatening" in the Czech version is a normal training situation for the trained dog, knowing how most of the dogs are trained, nothing to do with a threat. In the Czech bonitation I saw, there have been dogs that were so fear aggressiv that they could only be meassured of the owner and hat to be muzzeld still. They got good results in the Charactertest because they attacked like hell being threatened of a known figurant in training dress with a training stick having learned that is the most sensible thing to do.
Our dog reacting absolutely cool all the time but not reacting on the threat at all because being trained to do so since his whole life, got a less courage, not being afraid for one second. For me, knowing about learning theories, this has not been a charactertest of any use but simply a selection on fear aggression.
This is the real problem in bonitation, not 1 cm that show up in the bonitation code and are visible for everybody, together with a lot of cases where visible mistakes that don´t get meassured like not correct ears, bad mask, bad back line ore angulation that didn´t get mentioned in the code of some dogs out of whatever reason.

But I don´t see any sense in not doing a bonitation just because it isn´t perfect. For me it still is at least some information about the dog for all people knowing about it. And a sign of a breeder that at least tries to follow some rules.
And I too have my problems with bonitations like some Swizz ones where dogs with a code full of several severe mistakes got P1, I think it is correct not to accept these bonitations.

Ina

You know, some time ago this would have made me angry. Now it just makes me wonder.

Here in Belgium the club is trying very hard to get together a simple way of getting a good breeding standard so as to ensure the breed does well and does not degenerate. This is not as simple as it sounds - there are a lot of things which need to be explained and there is clearly a transition which needs to be done to get to a point where breeding is of the highest quality.

One of the things which I have personally learned through watching the process of discussing all these breeding rules is that you need to be open to criticism and to be ready to answer the questions from people - why are things done like this and not like that? Why is this a good dog and not that one?

The questions are not always easy to answer, and sometimes you realise that a mistake has been made, by you or by someone else. When that happens it's best to accept it, correct it if possible, and then move on.

Here we ask a very simple question - why was a certain dog with qualities which seem strange get a certain bonitation code. There might be a perfectly good explanation for it - but an agressive response does not help to advance things. It could be that a mistake was made somewhere or that the bonitation committee decided for whatever reasons to give that code. The reason doesn't matter, but the agressive response that a simple question has received has made me very sad - because it doesn't help anything or anyone.

One has to remember where these things come from. There is the bonitation yes, which is an evaluation against the properties of the standard. Though there are probably different ways of actually doing a bonitation there is only one standard it is the FCI standard and it clearly states:

So the question of why a dog which fails to comply with the criteria which are clearly defined in the standard is judged to be excellent for breeding (that is what P1 means) is not an unfair one and deserves a simple answer. Could we please have one?

There is the question of how important is really the height for breeding. You need to understand that the height of an animal (or person) is, genetically speaking, a very complex trait. There are at least 20 genes which are known to influence height in humans (and everything indicates at least as many in dogs). The genetic complexity of the height, along with the ease of measuring the phenotype (that is the actual height of the dog) makes it an excellent marker to see if a dog is conforming to everything else it should conform to according to its ancestry. Therefore the question of height is important because it's an easy and obvious way of knowing if the breeding stock is drifting significantly from a genetic point of view from the intended breed characteristics which cannot be so easily measured.


I know it's a little distasteful, but I would need to go back to this point:

This is a very strong personal attack against the integrity of a breeder Margo. In our case (for those of you who don't know it, Mirka is my wife) it should not be difficult to check - we've owned only two females and there has only been a single litter from our elder female. She's Cira Křivoklátský Atos (link to the wolfdog database: http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/543) and her bonitation code is A66,5 E3 K1 M5 Oi R1 P5 - not the prettiest of codes, but certainly not one with disqualifying faults. You have met the dog on several occasions Margo so if you could please explain which disqualifying faults you are referring to I would be very interested. If it was simply anger and frustration speaking (which happens) a simple retraction of the statement would also be most welcome.

Sorry Massimo - I should explain it to you (and all of you) before.... :rock_3 I answered this way because Mirka's only intention in this case was to attack me because Daimon is a dog from my kennel... :lol: And I see other breeders which are happy because they have FINALLY the possiblity to attack... :twisted: :lol:

At the moment we have huge disscusion about this topic on polish forum which Mirka can easily follow but you know... polish forum is not easy to understand for everyone so she started the same topic here to have more public... :lol: But no problem - I can disscuss the same things on two forums simultaneously....

But now I leave personal attacks - if someone has any problem with me it is his/her private problem... 8) I go back to the facts - I will try to answer some questions but I don't think I will be able to answer all of them already today.... So next parts will follow later...

The question why the result is P1 not P14 is a question to the committee. Write an official letter to all c 3 persons of committee and ask for a response. The judge decides about the bonitations codes, not the organizer of the meeting;)

I have asked this question here, because exactly the same question was asked on that very Polish forum, that Margo mentions, by Hanka Kaufmanova. And surprisingly :rock_3, her question was not only unanswered, but apparently also erased from the discussion - cause I did not find it again. :shock:
I suppose that Hanka, as a member of the Czech breeding committee is also interested only in personal attacks to Margo and her breeding? :roll: What a paranoid thinking...

Margo this assumption is unsubstantiated and obviously not what was intended.

1) Neither the name of the dog nor of the kennel were mentioned (which would obviously would have been the case if the intention was to attack your kennel.

2) Anyone who knows Mirka knows she never holds her tongue. If she had intended to attack a kennel and the breeding practices it would have been very clearly stated as such.

It is sad to see that the level of paranoia on these forums stops people from talking about the dogs, the bonitations and the problems which arise from them.

Margo you have still not formally withdrawn the accusation which you have levelled against the kennel Vlci Sen. I will ask again - either withdraw or substantiate your accusation.

Dear Mirka - before you write something please LOOK on the polish forum twice. NOBODY removed ANYTHING. Your words are EXACTLY "a paranoid thinking..." :|

(Gaga made good suggestion what to do if someone is interested for Daimon. My answer will be in generally)

FIRST I want to make small introduction:
The whole thing is not only about the one dog (even if for some people it is good reason for personal attacks) but about the old story about the different type of judgements by the bonitations in Slovakia and Czech Republic...

It is the old war which Ina mentioned - who is right, who makes the bonitations better...
But it is also an answer for Ina's words "together with a lot of cases where visible mistakes that don´t get meassured like not correct ears, bad mask, bad back line ore angulation that didn´t get mentioned in the code of some dogs out of whatever reason."
Why the faults are not written in the code? What are the reasons? Exactly because of the different way of judging...

HOW should look the bonitation...?
On the bonitation card the judge should write the size of the dog, judge its character and make the measurements. If a dog has any faults it should be written to the bonitation code (if the fault is good visible) or into the "notes" (if the fault is there but it is small (slight)). After it there should be judgement based on the indexes (proportions), and number and "size" of faults. That's the theory...

...BUT...

On the Slovak bonitation the jugde base the bonitation code end note on all the parts... (bonitation code + weight of the faults + their number + character test + indexes).

For example he can give a very bad note to a dog which has no other faults than the wrong indexes. So dog which bonitation code is sometimes PERFECT (As Of) can get note only "very good" or even "disqualification" only for the wrong proportions. On the other hand a dog which for example character test was not so good can still be even 'excellent' if during the bonitation it was good visible the dog has much better character than the bonitation shows... It is the same with all other faults... They are judged regarding to their number and weight...

In Czech Republic counts ONLY what has been written in the bonitation code (faults and character test). And there are many things which will disqualify a dog. On the other hand it doesn't matter if the dog has wrong indexes and it doesn't count what has beeen written in the "notes".... (see the case I already mentioned)


How it works...?
Let's take the serious fault which according to the Hartl's words disqualify a dog and makes him P14 - I mean "open lips" - code D12. And an theoretical example...

In Slovakia dog with open lips will be judged like this:
1) The fault is small so it has been written only to the "notes". The dog has no other faults... So the bonitation code will be As Of P3 (bonitation code 'excellent' but because of the 'open lips' written in the notes the dog has the end note "very good").
2) The fault is good visible and it has been written to the bonitation code. The dog has no other faults... So the bonitation will be As D12 Of P5 (bonitation code "good" because of the serious fault).
So the dog can be P3 (very good) or P5 (good).

Let see the same case in Czech Republic.
1) The fault is small so it has been written only to the "notes". The dog has no other faults... Here the bonitation will be much better than in Slovakia As Of P1 (bonitation code 'excellent' and also the end note "excellent" because nobody cares for this what is written in the notes).
2) The fault is good visible and it has been written to the bonitation code. The dog has no other faults... The bonitation SHOULD be As D12 Of P14 (bonitation code "disqualification" because it is so there). So what the breeding comittee will make? The SERIOUS fault will be NOT written to the code because nobody want to throw away this dog from breeding - breeding comittee will write it in to the notes and forget it... Such dog with REALLY SERIOUS problem will have the bonitation code As Of P1.
The same dog will be here P1 (excellent).

Ina, you asked why SERIOUS faults like you mentioned are not in the bonitation code. Exactly because of this: every of these fault will result with P5 (note "good") or P14 ("disqualification"). And because the Czech breeding comittee must keep to their own rules they will do everything in order "not to break dogs career" and hide the faults so they have no influence on the end note. They will hide everything in the "notes" or forget the faults exist...

The same is with size of the dogs... If the dog is a little bit smaller but perfect at all the slovak judge can still give the good note. So you can see some dogs which are 64 cm but still P3 or P5.
But the Czech comittee must follow their rules and give P14 to such dog. What they do in such case? They will ADD an 1 cm and write A65.... or even 66cm because it looks better... (everybody knows such cases).
The result? Dog with 64 cm in Slovakia has breeding rights but "only" the note "very good". In Czech Republic the same dog will appear with the 65-66cm and note EXCELLENT....
So which bonitation is more strict? :rock_3

Now the question is what is better?
When the bonitation comittee writes all found faults into the bonitation code (like it is in Slovakia) because good dog will still have the right to be stud dog.
Or it is better that the bonitation comittee hides more serious faults because if they appear in the bonitation code the dog MUST get P14...?

Edith, if you think you are right why you never asked why dog from your kennel (Crying Wolf Falco) is still P5 (note "good") even if he has two disqualification faults (size under minimum - 64 cm) and character (shy - Ob)? It was EXACTLY the same case.... He is very nice dog which is under minimum size. The note was lower only because of his character... When he would have perfect character like Daimon have also Falco would be A64 Of R1 P3....
So why you wonder first right now... :shock:

Dear Mirka, as a breeder and experienced owner of CzW you should know it is not the only case. Please do not sneer at "different standard for CSW in Poland" because EVERYBODY who has a little bit more to do with bonitations in Slovakia and Czech Republic know such cases... You will find over 20 dogs which were 64 cm and get the notes "P1" (excellent), P3 ("very good") or P5 ("good").
NO, the bonitations were not in Poland. They were in Slovakia and Czech Republic...
Why such notes were and are possible? I wrote it already in the last post...

OK, my question is now about Mery... I know you are not able to breed with her because of the strong dysplasia but bonitation code say NOTHING about dysplasia... It has no influence on it..
.
Were you never astonished about the excellent P1 note Mery get? During the youth presentation in Czech Republic she get P5 (note "good") because of the really visible problems with movement. The problem didn't disappeared and on your web page you wrote nice articles about hydroterapie which is necessary because of the problems with movement Mery has...

Look, despite of the movement problems which she has she get without any problems the EXCELLENT note during the bonition in Belgium... Just perfect code...:shock: [-> "is there a different standard for CSW in Belgium?"]

Let's say you have an another female which has the same problems with the movement but they are caused not because of HD but slack ligaments. And the problems are visible... You see - with such female you would get perfect code and breed with her even if it is serious DISQUALIFYING FAULT....
Did you really never wondered about the result you get?

Its the basic problem. Breding commision have roghts to let breeding on ANY dog, if is necessary. ANY means e.g. dog with heavy HD or P14 in code. But in this cases is using such dog limited abd the offsprings are under control. But if dog with disqualified fault get code P1-5, then nobody have rights limited the breeder such dog using without control. Little other situation is in CZ or SK, where any pair must have agreement from breeding commision and nobody can registrate puppies without sign of club. But in the countries, where is breed absolutelly free, is it very danger praxis.

Sure, it will be a thema by next common meeting of CZ and SK club. Here is discussion because some people defend this praxis and trying to evidence, that dogs under standard minimum high are OK and can be using normally in breed (code P1-5).

And maybe it would be a good idea to announce the notes, written in the bonitation card, but not in the code? Let's say here, on wolfdog.org?

Dear Margo, I have never been hidding Mery´s problems. They are very known, I´d say internationally :lol: I was not hidding her problems in front of the judge, Sona Bognarova either, Sona could see her not only during the bonitation, but also at our home and practically anytime for the two days she spent in Belgium. Despite the fact, and thanks to all the hydrotherapy we did, Sona could not find problems in her movement when presented in movement - which she said publicly and therefore gave her the code she gave her. If you are envious about a perfect code given to unbreedable dog, then I pity you.

If you were not ridiculous, you would realise that with the dysplasia Mery has and about which I know from her 9 months of age, I did not even have to bother to bonitate her. And that the result of the bonitation, be it whatever, would not have changed the fact that she will never breed.

Your hypothesis of "if I had a female" and "then it would be disqualifying fault" have no basis on real actions or facts. You have accused me and my kennel publicly and have absolutely no ground for it, except for your hatred and paranoia that everything is about you.
I would appreciate, if you apologised for the false accusations you have made on me, my kennel and my dogs.

Margo, My question was not against you or your dog(s)! I was just wondering.............if we have the same bonitacions...how could be big differences ??????....an in this case how could be happened that some bonitacions in some countries are not accepted.........

about HD: yes...it would be good if we could see the hd results in bonitacion code....or...the dogs could be bonitated and bred just if they have got official hd results (like in Hungary and some other countries)....

Edit


PS: I looked through the studdog list and I couldn't find dogs under the standard with P1 and/or P3 code. But maybe it is my fault.........

To Vaiva:
In bonitation codes are only defects. If czech breed comission (or bonitation comission) see some small exterier defects what have not character of defects, we write it to note only. Is not right, dogs with diskvalification defects have it in note, but no in codes. (In note you can read open lips, but in real it is not Really open lips, but only very little. It is just like: "danger-children of this dogs can have open lips when somebody will combinate two dogs with this small mistake". Or in note can be some mistake or defect what has not letter in bonitation code.....
And: all members of Czech club can see full bonitation codes + NOTES on clubpage. We have it!!!! already.
So everybody in Czech can know all about dog, what somebody wants know....On foto can be perfect dog, he can have perfect code, But in note you can read something more....
In other countries it does not exist, I think......
Do it Vaiva, make oficial club in your country (for wolfdogs), keep conditions for breeding and "our" breed will be better.

Dear Hanka,
in this years we have II CSV CLUB dogs show in Lithuania and II bonitation in me country.

all dogs who have breeds right in LT have and bonitation and HD results.

greatings
vet.doc. FCI and bonitation judge, CVK in Lithuania president
Daiva Rimaityte

So great :o)). Now you can only write notes behind bonitation codes on some club pages . If all clubs wil do the same.......Dream:lol:

Why bonitationjudge can make bonitation to own dogs and puppies?

Or why somebody use electricity collar in bonitation? or they use violence?
and why dog who is very aggresive have P1-P3?

"everyone can live whit dog who is not looking like perfect but not if dog wants eat all peoples and other dogs"

Satu, where and when hapenned it? If is somebody member of breedcomission, he (she) must not be member of this in moment when his (her) dog make bonitation.
For example like me in Czech republic. I think, I was one time on bonitation and I was in bonitation comission. But in moment of bonitation I must not be in commission. It must be official, on the paper from bonitation where are bonitation results. I must not measure my dog, I must not tell about his result and bonitation comission have minus one member in this moment. But I don´t know, how is it in other countries......

yeeess...good question...I have got nice videospot about bonitacio in Hronec...some part is very interresting :lol:
agressivity is biggest problem than shyness...and I think the klubs must think over and change the caracter test!!!!

Hanka, take your time and check all bonitation results.


I think WE need INTERNATIONAL CSV CLUB and all breedclubs haves same orgin bonitation and test rules.
if some club/country whant´s strict rules than orgin they can make it.

Also we need more bonitationjudges and that International Club can teach all botitationjudges.

I know very many breeds and they have that kind of INT CLUB.
They have meetings every second year.

It would be great, but is it only wish, witch dont function. Every national kenel club is dependent and will nod accept any international club. Is only one way - every country must have own club and this clubs must cooperate and make common rules.

wow...this thread is becoming "let's see who throws more shit on other breeders!!"
Margo, can you change the title?
:lol::lol::lol:

Oh Satu, I have not time to find all bonitations on web :o)))). Ufff.
I can tell you only how it is in Czech.
But: what is a little funny- maybe are some eruptions on the Sun, much people write attacking articles on Poland, Czech, English forums, bad words about other people.....:lol::lol::lol:. Or is bad position of planets....maybe

I have no time to make official request but anyway it is not SO important for me.
Somebody asked me a question and for some reason I'm not sure if I can reply.
Are the recent bonitations mad in Italy:
Recognized or not from Czech and Slovak club?
Does anybody in contact with the club know this reply?
I'm not speaking about this site, we know that the Italian bonitations are not valid for wolfdog.org, but for the official clubs?
Sasha? Hanka? do you know?
massimo

Judge can not judge dogs which he is owner. For bonitate his own dogs he must leave the comittee and someone else must be in the breeding comittee. But judge can judge dogs which he bred but which belong to other persons...

Let's stop play the game "Quest which dog I mean" :rock_3 It makes more things easier.... and make the air more clear... :p
Let say it open and ask Michael questions about the bonitation of Gorbi Zlata Palz directly... We were there, we know why the results was as it is... It has no sence to make something top secret because there is really nothing to hide...

I think we should speak about something else...

So far we have situation like this:
Slovak bonitation include ALL faults but for Czech people it looks that dogs which shoult be P14 get better notes (P1, P3, P5).
Czech bonitation is hiding many serious faults because of the problem that if it is on the code the dog must be P14.

You know what is the REAL problem? It is the code "Px" :rock_3 Remove it as many people suggest... After such step there will be no fight about the Slovak bonitation and the czech comittee will have no more any reason to hide the faults... :rock_3:lol: And the MAIN GOAL will be fullfiled - in the bonitation you will REALLY have all BIG faults and SMALL FAULTS will be written into the notes... They will write it because NOBODY will have any OFFICIAL reasons to hide them.... 8)

Massimo, my english is not so perfect, so I don´t understand what you mean.....If was bonitation in Pavia "under" czech club? Or?.....

ahhh Margo! I don't remember that I would write name of dogs/ breeders. And I haven't thinking about Gorbi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The problem is with his owner and not with the dogs!
And I could write about other dogs...but I won't do it in an open forum.....and I won't do it becase not this is the topic : how could we write a lot of bad things about others.
So please go back to the bonitacion beside takeing personality. Nobody was writing about kennels.breeders, dogs just you.

We want to discuss about bonitacio and not fighting with each other. So please mixing the shit!


Edit

We plan to do it but many notes are gone because nobody published them (Czech club started to publish it first since few years).

There is other problem - you can not compare the notes in the slovak bonitation cards where you have listed really SMALL faults and the czech bonitation cards where you have listed even SERIOUS faults which were not put in the bonitation code because of the danger the dogs can get P14 because of it...

No need to ask Michael, I was there and can tell anybody, it's no secret.
And please do NOT imagine things as they are not.
Two bonitations were made to quite nervous and untouchable dogs.
Geryon z Peronowki and Gorbi Zlata Palz.
Geryon z Peronowki had Muzzle and needed 2 people (owner and breeder) to hold him and distract him during measurements.
The owner alone (in this case Daiva) was not able to make him be measured.

Gorbi Zlata Palz same thing...the owner wasn't even able to PUT the muzzle on him.
But the breeder (Micheal) took the dog, went away and returned after a few minutes with a brand new dog. No muzzle was anymore necessary.
It was like a statue and Sona could do ANYTHING she wanted.
No violence was done to the dog, it was just shown to the dog that he is NOT the boss and he CANNOT do anything he wants.
In fact Gorbi didn't have his tail under his belly, he wasn't in terror as dogs are when they are hit.
I do the same to Oliver so I know very well. And I would NEVER be violent to one of my dogs, I prefer if you cut my hands off.
If anybody on this site had a puppy (i wonder...:shock:) they know very well what it means to show the puppy who is the boss.
Gorbi's behaviour was not his real nature.
I suppose also Geryon's behaviour is NOT his real nature, but both are somehow caused by their owners.
Massimo

On, Skandinavian judges can´t do that for own breeded dogs (dogs from their kennel)

FCI judges have 6 month rules... I think?

Rules have same in all FCI countries.

and results looks little bit reliadle if rules can be different.....

Nono, that I know for sure, it was not an Italian bonitation but czech one.
I am speaking about the "X files" bonitations!!
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/141.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/136.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/122.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/119.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/111.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/102.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/97.html

Do you know if these bonitations are considered NOT VALID by czech club?
massimo

Margo, please don´t forget, before 2003 was here "old club goverment" and we have not documents from this time.....Now is new club goverment and all members of club can see all what they want.
And stop with writting about dogs with disqualification defects in czech breeding. It is not right . I am in breedcomission and I don´t remember time, when we put some bad dog (with P14 defects) to breeding......And I don´t remember case, when small dog have more cm in code. I think, nobody does it here....

No Mirka - bonitation of Mery is only one part of the bigger problems we have at the moment... And she is the best example... I didn't saw her for a long time... but I read on your pages she has problems to move propertly because her back legs 'tangle' when she move. So I wondered how she can be P1 with such kind of movement problems...
And you must understand my worries about the breed because she is not the only example when dog with problems (not exactly HD but with slack ligaments) get nice note during the bonitation... Just see the famous case in Czech Republic about the bonitation in Prague I mentioned... ASK someone from CZ - they will tell you the story....

Mirka, before you write about paranoia please ask finally somebody from the Czech breeding comittee about the problems I mentioned - about dogs which pass bonitations without any problems even if they have DISQUALIFYING FAULTS I listed...

yes, be 6 monts termin.

I know the problems with the old "GOVERMENT" :twisted::rock_3 Nobody can blame your for it and I can really make HUGE list of thinks which the new board of the club makes much better as it was before... Don't worry - I have also many positive thigs which I can write about the Czech style of leading the breed but not we are not wroting about good sides... 8)

You not.... it was made by the board and breeding comitteee which was before you.. But still please look on the way the dogs are judged in Czech Republic and see that the problem with hiding faults exists.... Not because you WANT to hide them but because to follow the Czech rules you MUST hide them...
The open lips are really the best example and someone must do something with it - just look on the males and say it openly: it is almost not possible to find A dog in CZ which has TYPICAL lips... They have all little open or VERY open lips what make their had looking totally different...

now...returning to the initial reason of discussion, there is still an open question nobody has really answered to.
1) in slovak and czech officially recognized bonitations.
Is the lower height limit of 65cm a STRICT limit under which a dog will SURELY get P14?
I know for sure because I asked Sona Bognarova the lower limit of 60cm is NOT strict for females and they can get a P5 code if 1cm less and everything else is ok.
Is this the same for males in SK? in CZ?
As Oskar Dora is one of the most titled specialized living CSW judges, either the reply is YES for Slovakia or the reply is NO for slovakia and it was an ecception for Poland Bonitation. I suppose there was no special Polish bonitation and it is allowed in Slovakia. Anybody can reply from CZ?

my personal opinion (so it means nothing :lol:) is that they should get P14 but P14 should be allowed to breed in special conditions monitored by the club.
Otherwise 73cm dogs risk the chance not to be born from 64,5cm ones...

I will add just another comment for those who have never seen a bonitation: Height on Bonitation is just the height measured by the judge during the bonitation.
It is NOT NECESSARILY correct, 1 or even 2 cm sometimes are "lost" because the dog is not in correct position and bending down.
The opposite can also happen: If you have a 58-59cm female, it is quite easy to make her become 61cm... I've seen it with my own eyes. It is not correct too, but it saves the dog from being disqualified from breeding (and It is a pity)
I agree with Margo, Px factor is sometimes not good.
Just make a list of defects, disqualifying and light, and result should be OK for breeding or NOT ok for breeding.
Massimo

The bonitation in Pavia was made as official bonitation of the Czech club accoring to the Czech Club rules... Because of it it is fully recognized...

Massimo do not lie. No VIOLENCE!?! Many people was there and see it.
Margo helped me to show Geryon but I not bit him. But Gorbi? Michael must punish he during measurement really and everybody see it in Hronec. He must strangle Gorbi and it not worked. Michael took dog and go away. When he come back Gorbi was so punished, his tongue was BLUE. He was in shock and for me it is no wonder Sona could do ANYTHING with him.
Remember there was many people who see it. Letty from Holland. Satu and many many more - Massimo not tell lies now

As Pavel wrote it will be hard to make such kind of club on the official way. But Slovak Club (together with Czech Club) try to organize word-wide community of judges and breeders (and owners of course) which cooperate together and follow the same rules... It is just starting - the data are being collected and we try to prepare everything.... So give us some time and meetings like Hronec (with exchanging of infromation) can transform to official meetings with a very good formulated goals...

No - there are no more spots on the sun in the moment. For sure it is the problem.... :rock_3

Yes, that is why we need to know these notes. If I have to go to a male for thousands kilometres, I would like to know, what he has in "notes" first 8)

As wolfin allready mentioned, we do have an official breed club in Lithuania and in fact it is so easy to know everything about any dog here, because only 17 wolfdogs live in Lithuania :)

Edith - if something has four legs, is barking like a dog and looking like a dog it IS a DOG.... :lol:

I hope you understand if I will not believe you it is not personal... I really will not believe that person which bred so many dogs and is insider in this breed for a long time never checked the list of OWN dogs and didn't saw that Falco passed bonitation although he is 64 cm... I do not believe you never checked the list of Slovak stud dogs where since YEARS you can see Iran which is 64 cm and already had puppies by such famous Slovak kennels like Radov dvor or spod Ďumbiera.... 8)
So I'm really astonished that you "discovered" the problem first right now... :lol:

Please read the words of Martine:
The list is long but few example just for you:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/3588
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1360
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/745
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2851
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2822

Sure - but if it is right? Was it really better to make the same in Pozna and ask Oskar "Please write Daimon A65 or A66 because it will look NICER and nobody will make any problems beause of it"? Of course Oskar would not make it for us :) but as you wrote - in MANY cases it is made like this expacially in Czech Republic in order to "save the dog from being disqualified from breeding".
But when we will hide the size you know what will happen? An owner with the STANDARD male (65 cm on the papers but 64 in reality) will cover a STANDARD female (61 in papers and 58 in reality) and the new puppy owners will be SHOCKED how it is possible their puppy is only 55 cm.... :twisted:

It is REALLY better to write the real data to the bonitation cards because when the data is faulsed (f.e. small dogs has been added some cm of height or very small dogs (much under minimum) are hidden by their owners so nobody can see they are much too small but people breed with them) than you have no improvement by the whole breed and sometimes breeders which really want to do their best and use only good dogs are cheated and unconscious use dogs with SERIOUS DISQUALIFYING FAULTS (because in many cases they have NO idea they use dog or buy a puppy from CzW which do not have for example the typical height).

For stat lovers (it took me long time...i don't have access to Database like Margo! :lol:)
Below standard males and females on WD
Males

Name Code Place County Date Judge Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK 23/5/98 Dora Flint Ju¾ná èast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK 13/7/96 F. Rosik Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ 26/4/08 Dora Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK 17/5/03 Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ 6/10/07 Dora Celt Fonèorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hrièov SK 28/11/98 Bognarova Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hrièov SK 12/11/00 Dora
Females

Name Code Place County Date Judge Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK 14/8/99 F. Rosik Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK 13/7/96 F. Rosik Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97 Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 ®ilina - Strá¾ova CZ 23/11/96 Dora Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK 15/8/98 F. Rosik Antea z Dubnièanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK 29/10/94 Elys spod Ïumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK 19/4/08 Dora

CZ dogs below standard, both males and females, were ALWAYS P14 (except for once, but judge was Dora...)
So, I suppose I already have a reply: CZ are strict to the cm, slovaks not.

Sorry, came out really bad!

Males

Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK23/5/98 Dora
Flint Južná čast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ26/4/08 Dora Atos Brevnovská stopa CS A64 Oc R1 P5 Hostivice CZ25/4/93 Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK17/5/03
Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ6/10/07 Dora
Celt Fončorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK28/11/98 Bognarova
Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK12/11/00 Dora

Females

Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK14/8/99 F. Rosik
Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97
Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 Zilina - Strázova CZ23/11/96 Dora
Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK15/8/98 F. Rosik
Antea z Dubničanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK29/10/94
Elys spod Ďumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK19/4/08 Dora

I can say only - no one of this bonitations was suported by Czech club. Czech club dont delegate the judges and it was really only private activity (e.g. Jedlicka is not more just from 2004 member of Czech club).

You were not writing about Gorbi? I though you mean exactly him (because many people started to talk how he can get P1 (excellent note) after such behaviour during the bonitation...)
So you see now it is REALLY better to write the names because in other case there can be HUGE misunderstanding.

I see from the post written by Massimo you were writing about Geryon. It is another good argument to write about some dogs openly - some gossips spread behind the back of the owners and breeders became really funny and far away from the reality. But in such case it is a pitty that "lie repeated often enough become the truth"... :| So I would like to write about it now...

You were not im Hronec. You just saw some movies made by the mobile phone so it is no wonder what you know about this bonitation is totally different from the reality...
So maybe I can make it more clear to you and all the people which follow our discussion - if I miss something or forget something pleople which were there (Michael, Massimo, Daiva, Satu, and some more) will add something and correct my words...

The bonitation in Hronec was VERY problematic - you can see it on the end results where even very good dogs become notes and character codes which are much worser than the dogs are in reality... The reasons were different - place, stress, number of dogs, many "beginners", aso...
ANYWAY there were 3 more problematic dogs. Problematic during the measurements but really great and normaly behaving in the real life... By all of them they have to be showed by other person (in all three cases by their breeders). When the owner was next to the dogs shared the stress and handled like crazy...
I will not speak about 2 other but about Geryon which you mentioned... It was like Massimo wrote - with Daiva the dog didn't allowed to be measured even when I tried to help her - he was protecting himself and I think it is the video you saw for sure. But later we changed and only I started to show him. Without any problems I get the muzzle off of him and calmed him down - just few nice words and the dog chaged and calmed down. Sona measured him - when he started to get nervous we just stroked him what made him extremly happy and made possible next measurements...
The bonitation was not perfect by Geryon - nobody says it was - but with some training with possitive methods it will be possible to make bonitation without any problems... Anyway the behavoiour which Geryon showed has been put into his bonitation code - as you can see because of such behavoiur he is "only" Od (irritable - distrustfull) and "only" P3 ("very good") and not more Of or Og (well balanced or perfect but less courage) and P1 ("excellent") which he could get if he would behave NORMAL...
As you can see NOTHING has been HIDDEN - all date is visible in the bonitation code...
If you do not believe me please ask Sona Bognarova - judge which made the bonitation or any person which was there and really saw the WHOLE bonitation of Geryon... :rock_3

I didn't see a blue tongue... just hard pulled by the leash and jumping up and down like crazy and then a calm, not frightened, dog.
I am no liar, I speak for what I see and I confirm my previous statement.
I am strongly against Electric Collar though.
What do you think?
massimo

My question is if the bonitations are RECOGNIZED as valid.
Bonitations made from people not members of Czech Club are also Valid (slovak judges for example).
Can somebody from CZ/SK club help me find out?
massimo

We know just many years is by Slovakian club not strictly limit. Why, can everybody think about ;-). Standard dont give the alternative. I still believe that word "minimum" have always same sense - less is not possible. Or have somebody other sense of this word ?

Nobody's perfect. Oskar is freind of my, but he make the bonitation in the slovakian "borders". Generally are CZ and SK bonitation build on same principles, but still exist the differences. Bonitations always developed. 30 years ago looks the bonitation little other, then today.
I critise e.g., that in Pozna were 2 dogs by bonitations shy. And Oskar dont write P14, but breaks the bonitation. Why, when every dog have oficially chance repeat once the character test of bonitation and change the code ?

Massimo many times we have totally other meanings, but this your words can I sign 100%.

About it you must ask by CZ and SK Club.

Massimo, about help. Handler helped not only Geryon or Gorbi, this have also Alpestre, and Gema and moore dogs. And all be ok. For Margo it is not first bonitation and she is perfect handler for this.

About electric collar - who have this in bonitation?

I HAVE this and i going with them to training and make this with Malik (an he help me training better Geryons comands).
But el.collar not be ussed in boniation, or maybe you have facts and photo about this?

Why Elys is 59cm high? Hmmm....
Oskar is very big man and Elys doesn´t like Oskar so Oskar taken very many times high but everytime different high.

One was over 61 and 60 and....
I have couple photos how you can take wolfdogs high mits and dog don´t want stand.

After Oskars results Sasha taken different highs again because Elys likes more Sasha than Oskar and she standing better.

and so many dogshow judges have taken Elys high and all is more that 59cm ;-)

But bigger problem is character not how high dog is....

Thanks God ! my dogs are not agressive for anybody and I can walk whit them everywhere.

It is exactly because of the difference of slovakian bonitation... In Slovakia you judge everything. Not only character test but also how the dog behaves whole time (also during the measurements). So it is not possible to make the character test ONLY - you have to repeat whole bonitation.
In the case of the dogs the bonitation have been broken and will be finished later (maybe soon). So the dogs can repeat ONLY the character test...

EXACTLY! When the judge knows the dog can be in the reality higher than the measurements taken such dog can get better note and not P14. Beside the height Elys do not have any other faults and it is the reason why Elys is P3 and not P14...

Satu, You must have bonitation card and make scan and take to this post. And see who is wright in reality.

i know about cm :) i have example - dogs in young presentation have 68 cm but in bonitation have only 66 cm.

Its same in CZ. But every dog have chance, beacuse we know, that shyness by many dogs is not genetics, "only" bad socialisation. Of course, that repeat character test testing both parts, but measurements are just ready and dont changing.

Right.. but... it means that males 65cm tall and higher are typical and below 65cm are too short. It's only up to the judge to evaluate how big fault the 1cm is for him. It's obviously a fault according to standard but the same is with dark eyes, big ears, wrong body indexes. It's written "minimum 65cm" but it also written for example "Length of muzzle : Length of cranial region : 1 : 1.5" ... so what's about it? Does it mean that dog with the proportions of 1:1,49 should be disqualified or maybe 1:1,45?? Or 1:1,33?? :) It's up to the judge... "minimum 65cm" means that the judge has no right to say that the dog with 65,5cm is too short. It's typical according to standard since it 65cm or higher.

I didn't speak about Electrical Collar during Bonitation.
It was a straightforward statement I say because you say what you saw during Gorbi's bonitation was violence.
Somebody else mentioned it during bonitation, not me:

For me Electric Collar is a stronger violence and I am against it unless the dogs have serious serious problems (better electric collar than being shot down)
Violence to a dog is ALSO to let him do what he wants, to let him be your BOSS, to let him think he can do anything and he is right; it's TOTALLY wrong and can lead to make him be put down in future...
Violence is also the Breeder who sells a difficult dog as CSW without warning the owners about what "could" happen, about Hierarchy, about leadership; breeders who don't care about the dogs they sold anymore and don't care about their future but just the money they bring.
Sorry for this OT but I'm a bit sad, a CSW has recently been put down in Italy because week owners (husband and wife) were badly bit by their male.
Massimo

but we speak about bonitation, if You wish speak about training and el.collar systems we cann make other new topic. :rock_3

Sorry Przemek, you are not right. 65 cm by males and 60 cm by females are MINIMUM. So says standard. Its not about "typical" or not. Its MINIMUM.

By e.g. body format is not "minimum" border (same by head format). Its written in faults, whats is wrong. Andy by this two mesurements must judge valuate, but by hight is it clear "minimum" is "minimum". And if dog dont reach minimum high, according not to standard and must get P14.

I spoke about definition of violence, considering that between us we surely have different idea of what violence is, considering what we saw during bonitation.

But if you want to speak about bonitation.
These words speak for themselves.
I have never seen you train your dogs and I cannot judge you. But if I try to understand these words... Geryon was protecting himself from you, or better, from something you do to him which he doesn't like.
I am sure your dog loves you, just as my dogs love me.
I know I don't have much control of my dog when he is in contact with other males.
I agree with you Satu, precious words... I wish I could avoid being pulled around when other males are there.
Maybe my dog doesn't respect me as much as he SHOULD.
But I know my dog LOVES and RESPECTS me, and he is ok to be handled by any normally behaving human being without any problem.
Are you sure your dogs do not FEAR you?
Dogs fear violence.
Gorbi wasn't afraid of Michael during bonitation or after, everybody saw this.
Massimo

But you have PROPORTIONS. Wrong proportions -> DISQUALIFICATION. But see the reality... Even dachshound can be sometimes P1.

Maximum of the ears is 1/6 of the heigh. If it is more then -> wrong proportions of the ears -> P14 also... So why we can see dogs with F2 and P1 (excellent)? :rock_3
And there are MANY examples like this....

So far the problem is that some people CHOOSED some faults which were more important and made them P14. In CZ you choosed for example the heigh... So far there is no bigger problem with the heigh so I think the Czech breeding comittee should start to watch faults which are EXTREMLY spread by the population like:
- open lips
- heavy heads
- deep and wide chests
- short legs and wrong indexes
Because so far there is no control for this and it is the reason why it is not improving by many lines...

Yes Massimo - it is almost like you say... ALMOST because he was not protecting himself FROM ME, but from being measured by Sona...
In the dog training you have MANY situations where the dog do not want to do something (sometimes because the dog do not know it is good and nice).
What do you do in such cases? Do you say "my dog do not want to be trained"? And you make NOTHING? "CzW are to stupid to be trained because my dog don't want to do anything and I will not "forse" him to do things he don't like"? Or you show him that training (or bontation) is nothing wrong and dangerous and can be even nice and funny?

In such cases I find always some methods to "forse" the dog (with motivation like snacks, good words, aso.). In Hronec I could give up with Geryon (STUPID DOG DON'T WANT TO BE TOUCHED AND I RESPECT IT) but I think MUCH BETTER solution was just to say him some nice words, to stroke him and show "Sona and bonitation can be cool things".

If you will always give up by training with CzW you will never reach anything... Also not by me 8) - I need much more POSITIVE motivation (like the perfect red wine from Italy) to make some things (like update of the database) earlier than planned...

There was never problem with bonitation of Mery. And I don´t care a bit about your worries, which were not worries but accusations of the worst sort with a goal to throw dirt on me and my dogs. Neither I need to ask anything from Czech breeding committee, don´t change the subject.

All I wanted is a reply to my question, so as why a dog bonitated in Pozna with 64 cm in shoulder is not automatically P14. All I got were attacks and accusations from you and a lot of crap.

I am still waiting for you to withdraw publicly your accusations against me, my kennel and my dogs.

Massimo, my dogs love me and are crazy to me :) and i love my dogs very much. You can quest my dogs ourself :)

Geryon, like say Sonja, is 100% son of Kondor, and have this same character (this can say also Marcela)- he can not stay in the same place longer than 2 seconds and not like things like measurement. and I know this - he always not stay still in dogs show and always must move.
If You see ALL Geryons bonitation You can see he was happy when this have end. he is dog to running but not standing. Yes he have problems like macho - he not like others male, but he not have problems with people.

and IF You wish know who character have he, next thime please come to me and contact with him. I remember in Hronec, You not contact with him, like others people and i think not can say 100% which character have Geryon.

Well, if it was done exactly accodring to slovak or chzech rules (with character test on chain without owner present), than there is a chance, I don't know officially. But if there is no character test, then for sure no.

Oh Mirka - you really have a nerve. :twisted: FIRST you start topic with attacks on MY KENNEL and bonitation made during meeting organized by ME EVEN if you exactly know the answer for your questons: WHY the dog has the kind of bonitation code and that there are MORE dogs like this even if your country... Really please stop to play saint person - you never asked about such cases before when something like this appeared before, you never started a topic about slovak kind of bonitation when dog from your kennel get P1 although according your "MOST PERFECT CZECH BONITATION RULES" he should be P14 (I know why he is P1 and not P14 and I agree with it but according the code he is P14 and if you would be fair person you will start your posts blaming slovakian bonitation already 3 years ago).

No - you exactly started the topic because of the reasons we all know perfectly... PRIVATE reasons: dog with MY kennel name... :|

For me it is no problem - we can talk about it.... But the topic include much more problems than the height only: differences between different countries, between another type of judgement and problem of the hiding of faults...
But I see for you it is only great if you have the possibility to attack other people and breeders but when we start to speak about you, your deccisions and your kennel you see it as ACCUSATIONS... :shock: If you attack somebody and touch problematic things so be prepared to talk about it in the publicity and do not hide everything and do not try to end the disscusion behind "you blame my kennel - stop it"...
I do not have such kind of problems and I can talk about everything in the public - I really believe in the words "Prawdziwa Cnota Krytyki Się Nie Boi!" (Real virtue is not affraid of critique - if you have nothing bad to hide you should be not affraid of any critique because you can explain everything)...

If you have problem with disscusion please NEVER start topics like this because in such case be prepared you have also to answer some problematic questions...

They say that the CZ bonitation does not give anything else than P14 to a maledog that is lower than the minimum of 65 cm.
Is the rule changed in the last past years ?
Was it in the earlier days possible to get P5 in CZ, when your dog was lower than the minimum size??
Because this dog did his bonitation in CZ, but is lower than the minimum but got P5.
http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...le=list&id=745
Ore is this because it is possible to a SL judge, to judge CZ bonitation ??
Groette Martine.

Is not big secret about my dogs bonitation result Elys have code A59,Og,R1,P3

and that code is also in Elys paper.

Any bonitation judges or comitean members are not my frends, I don´t have any dogs from their kennel, I don´t fu*k them,Im not judge. I´m not member of bonitation comitea

I have seen thous peoples (2 times Oskar Dora first in bonitation,second in summer camp)
(Sonja 1st time in summercamp) and Cz judges Only 1st time in Bonitation.)

Im not jealous other dogs results and i don´t want say any bad thinks about any person but still
I´m dreaming about INTERNATIONAL CZW CLUB WHERE ALL COUNTRIES CLUBS CAN COME and TALK VERY OPENLY.

It is for now a dream, but is is possible 8).
Groette Martine.

Hi,

I just started to read this discussion, so I'm giving some comments on things that are written some time ago... ;-)

I really like to say that at the time of our bonitation, Ali (Mery) was doing fine and her movements were a lot better (even very good), probably because of the hydrotherapy. I never noticed the 'walking-problems' of Mery before. Only during our last event (training for -right- the bonitation) I saw that she walked like... you know... a dog with HD.
And a bonitation is like a dog show: it shows the dog on one particular day, on one moment,... So maybe Mery's movement was fine during the minute she had to show her movements!

While writing this, I start wondering for whom or for what I'm telling all this... It is completely off-topic, but I feel the urge to share this with all of you. It's insane that people start to 'attack' each other personally. I'm on nobody's side (I say this because it feels like there are different, opposite, 'sides'), but please stop saying all these things about each other. As far as I know Mirka, she only tries to do her best for the breed, in every possible way. And I guess that's the same for Margo and all others here on the forum. So why can't we JUST TALK/DISCUSS without all the other crap... This is worse then politics :roll: Or wait... this IS politics :evil:

But I'll continue reading. There is also useful information about the bonitation hidden behind the insults etc... ;-)

Liesbeth

Great idea. I'll propose the same in Belgium!

Liesbeth

I think this is a great idea. We organise our second bonitation in Belgium this year, and it was very difficult to find a judge that suits everyone! Our bonitation will be perfectly official, but there will be always somebody complaining about the nationality of the judge, the way he makes the bonitation, Czech or Slovak, etc... :roll:

If there would be an international sort of club who makes sure that all bonitations are comparable etc., that would be just great!

Belgium likes to coöperate :lol:

Liesbeth

Funny that is my pesenal opinion to :lol: 1cm difference on some parts of a man makes a small difference :lol: :lol: :lol: thank god !!!

I think it is better that we are harder on real problems like HD/ED and hereditary diseases instead !!! like demand DNA tests by 2010 ???

Regards / Mikael

Yes me to Satu, and hopefuly people would bring pencils instead of guns :)

Regards / Mikael

This is the "differences in bonitations " topic......."health of the breed" is another topic.....of course you are absolutly right...health is very important.........
but here not this is the main point...and not the 1 cm................

this Thread "differences in bonitations" had 90 inputs on only 36 hour :)

is that a forum record ???
:beerchug2

Regards / Mikael

How many meetings and CZW owners you have seen only fighting??
fighting dosn´t help this breed at all.

Words can fight whitout weapons....

From different months I am working to an articles that draws note of the differences in the bonitation. I have assisted and participated with my dogs in the last months in three bonitazionis to compare her, with rules of the Czech republic to Pavia, with Italian rules to Montecatini, with rules of the Slovak republic to Heingenbrucken. I have set here officially besides a lot of the present matters to the Club Slovacco in how much holding of guardianship of the race. I will just have answered I will complete this analysis and I will make her/it public. I can anticipate that differences are a lot of, not only to level of carachter test.I have opinion the opinion that for the good of the race the bonitation is goes unified putting the most remarkable Club around a table. But on first should be decide that type of dog wants to fix in the CZW. in Italy a lot people would be wanted him in the group 5, in the Czech republic they would be wanted him a true job dog..the difference is not only carachter, but it is also in the safeguard of the rusticity that the Czw has inherited from the wolf..if there is not before accord in what the direction that the selection of this race must take must be, there can be no accord on the rules of bonitation.

Woland, it is true that we need to make the bonitations and bonitation code unified internationally, and the Slovak and Czech clubs recognize this need and are cooperating in this regard. On the other hand, this is not a thing that can be decided upon by elected members of the club presidia, it needs input of experts in the field of dog breeding and behavior, and as all the people involved can only work on this in their spare time, it naturally takes some time.

But there is no question of allocation of Czechoslovak Wolfdog to different FCI group that it is now - it was created as a working breed and we intend to keep it that way. This I can say as a representative of the guarantee of the breed - the Slovak Club does not intend any change of FCI group and will not in forseable future agree with it.

It seems to me that everyone is in wolfdog meeting shows this weekend in italy and germany. that gave me time to read the whole thread which increased so fast.

Margo, you know I like you and your family(dogfamily too) very much!!! But I am really wondering why you put names in the ring. 2-3 weeks ago someone pissed at me here in english forum without telling my name. But everyone who knows me and my dogs knew she meant me. I replied by saying it is me, I did not bother others, and explained the truth! I think Przemek was it who cancelled every one of my statements. And the lie stayed here in forum til now.

So, we all know that is your personal homepage but we are a bit disappoionted how you measured her the statements...

I was wondering too, a 64 cm male got P 1. But, I am in breeing for Briards - Berger de Brie - french herdings dogs for 10 years. And there it is possible and no fault, if a female or male dog is 1 cm less or more in hight as the standard says, if everything else is without faults. And that is the right answer from Margo, I think that this must be possible. But this has to be add in standard if it is not written there til this very moment.

Here in this thread are some different more threads. Talking about bonitation in hronec this year. 2 dogs were mentioned. I was really disappointed when I read that Daiva is using electric collar for training. Daiva in germany electric collar is forbidden!!! And no one needs this damned thing. When I read your comments here as a breeder, judge, dog owner, I thought everytime wow, it seems as if she knows what she talking about... I saw you in Poznan one week ago. What can I say, my friend Miguel visit Geryon and I saw it from a few meters away. He behaved to people very friendly and well. But when I passed thru with Myla and Tala about 40 m away he started barking at us and jumping in his leash which was around a tree.

So, I have not easy but hyperactiv Myla. Please see bonitation code from last year from Sona. She is perfect. In every ring she behaved well. I can not understand why it was not possible for you as a sooo experienced breeder, judge and so on, that you were not able to handle your own dog?

Second thing, my "friend" Michael Eichhorn: everyone who knows him knows that he as a dog trainer, dogtravelmanager, breeder and owner of 5 csw is very hard to his dogs. I am wondering, Massimo, that you try to help him.... You know as we did, that Michael beats his dogs on the mouth when they don´t behave like he wants. And even his 9 year old ones. With this age and as a dog trainer I thought a dog has to listen to first comand/word and does not need being beaten up. In summer camp 2004 in germany, lots of people saw that he was crossing a sleeping 6 month old puppy which woke up because he was going over his head. The dog tried to get to Michael, he turned around and kick this poor little one with his feet.

So, Massimo, if a tongue got blue, you know as we do, that he puts the dog out of air. You called it he was hard with collar. It is no wonder that Gorbi was not able to do anything and let Sona do her work. I konw Gorbi from last year bonitation in germany. He was the boss of is owners and barking at every dog and people with his ruta in sky. I guess Michael did choose the wrong owners for him. This could happen but this gave him not the right to be so brutal with a dog. And I am wondering why Sona who knows that Gorbi has a problem let him pass with P 1??? In normal live without being beaten up he behaves like hell!!!! But if interesting people see the result from bonitation they could thing wow nice dog. But this not true!

Christian

When you are a breeder from west Europe (who is not able to go to all bonitations) it is very difficult to judge a right male for your female, when you don’t know also the small details…….. :cry: And before I visit a interesting male I can read the Bonitation results, but I miss the small details!

I am glad there is Bonitation, so there is some kind of judgement / measurement about a dog of this breed. :)
That is the reason I did youth presentation and Bonitation with her. And I am satisfied with my P3 female, but I also would love her when she would have get P14! So that is not my point! :)

I can imagine that there are differences in measurement (we did measure for example some dogs before we went to Pozna, and some did grow or shrink on Bonitation. We are not experts, so maybe we did measure wrong!;-)) When a dog is feeling uncomfortable, he/she has in much of the cases not the same height when he/she is relaxed.

My female did youth presentation in Hostivice when she was almost 2 years old and did get : A61 E1 H12 Oh P3 (sm)
Now she is did Bonitation in Pozna and did get A60 E3 M6 Of R1 P3.
So she did shrink, her eyes were changing form light brown to dark, she did loose the fault H12 and did get a new one M6 (because of some light nails)

Of course I know my female and her small faults:rock_3. That is why I am for a combination always looking for a male with not the same faults! But how reliable are Bonitation results when they are not mentioning all the “small faults” (and riscs for a combination)?
And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s:cry:

And by the way in the Bonitation result of my female on wolfdog is now: Og but in my official paper is Of ! And is was obvious that she did not deserve g with her reaction on the threatening!
So this a small mistake in the info on wolfdog :rock_3 , so please Margo will you change this?

I hope this all will work out in future and there will come international rules for all clubs!:)