In season...
 

Hi Philipe,
Of course we are loosing some natural aspects of the breed. But I don't
find important how often our females are in heat. There are some worse
things than this one is. We can talk about exterier for example. I mean
proportions of our dogs. Remember these dogs should be just similar to
wolfes. Creatiors of the breed couldn't take of the wollf what they liked
even they were trying to do so :-) and the rest of german shepard. But when
I train my Brenna I can still find many wolfes manners (((- ; And I think
the wolfblood will be flowing through our fingers and disappearing in the
future. What we want to have in our homes more the wolf or a dog?.

In season...
 

Hi, all,

I'm often asked by people about the female CsV heat : number of cycle per
year, spacing, duration, start...

It was my understanding that, being a primitive breed, CsV females react
like she-wolves, one heat per year... but it seems some females are 'in
season' twice a year!!!

In another hand, I was convinced litters are due at the end of
winter/beginning of spring... and saw CsV litters born between January and
December!!!???

Are we losing some parts of the primitive side of the breed or what? If so,
what about working abilities (and standard) after 10, 20, 50 or 100 years?

Any opinion and/or comment is welcome!

Best regards

Philippe

In season...
 

Does your wolfdog live indoors?

In season...
 

Hi, Zoltan,

No, all my dogs are living outdoor... My 3 CsV females, Jola, Sonia and
Sophia, are actually in season... Jola have already had puppies, and had
always been in heat in October/November...

Philippe

In season...
 

From my decades of experience I can assure you that the further away from the
"wolf" you go, the more "dog" like your progeny will become. This said ..
however, with proper planning you can still retain the "wolf traits" that you
admire so much, like the intelligence ;-)
Look how far the German Shepherd went before it started to fall apart .. and
WHY did it change? I can assure you that my breed has retained many of the
same qualities you could easily see in the GSD 40-50 years ago, but have to
look very hard to find today ;(
If you have a strong club of educated <and fully dedicated> breeders, this
beautiful dog will still look & act the way you want him to 100 years from
now ;-)

In season...
 

Dear Philippe,

I just read in some literature I can´t remember (maybe Dog breeding 2000 from
Professor Helmut Wachtel, Austria, maby something by Trumler)that very many wolfe
hybrids tend to get their litters earlier then wolfes in Dezember, January.
In wolfes the social interaction in the pack is essential for spermproduction of
the males and for getting in heat of the females. Even when our alpha-female
normaly gets in heat every eight month, she normaly has a short heat in between
without a ovulation when our Irish wolfhound bitch gets in heat before her (she
follows the normal 6 month terminal of housdogs) and I know that it is a big
problem in breeding csw-bitches that live without a male ore that are dominated
by another female, because they don´t get to ovulation in the normal time ore
they interrupt their heat bevore and start all over again later. So even if they
don´t follow wolfe´s cycles they are a lot different to normal dogs.
I don´t think the whole problem has anything to do with training abilities.

Best regards Ina

Didn't want to start a new topic, so I am writting here. As far as I know it is difficult enought to find out when exactly to mate a female wolfdog :roll: Do you use progesteron researches? Or just know exactly the day when to mate your females?

If it is not a top secret, of course :)

It is very easy with 3 of our females with one it´s a little more difficult. When we have to go far to the stud I use Progesteron-Tests to find the optimum day.

Ina

Ok, and what marks do you consider to be allready the right ones? Same as usual dogs?

Yes the same.

Hi, I am doing progesteron tests right now with Frei, as we should travel quite far, so I hope it will help. Of course I am also watching her behavior and it seems to correlate.

I was just telling my friend that I would really like some research on hormonal changes in bitches, meaning day-to day changes, oscillation (Frei went from 1.72 to 1.15 in 3 days and then to 2.39 in another 3) etc. But that would require some research grant (having test every 3rd day is quite a lot for me), otherwise it is pretty fast, takes less than 2 hours.
I found a paper where they have studied captive wolves (both kenneled and roaming) and measured their progress through estrus, but they had quite a long spacing between measurement of the same bitch due to stress probably. But they found out that proestrus is cca 2x as long as in dogs, while estrus and gravidity is the same and also hormonal levels are the same.

I have another question regarding heat - so the length of proestrus is 15.7 +- 1.6 days in wolves, which means individual proestrus can be 21 days long in wolves. In wolfdogs this seems to be even longer - Frei is now 28 days in heat and still not flagging completely (she insists on at least 10 minutes of play before being willing to stand still for some smelling and licking). Of course she was not bleeding continually since the beginning, but now she is bleeding profusely for a week, but shows no signs of discomfort except frequent licking. Male dogs thought she was smelling really nice since the beginning, but a week ago they started to be very very insistent on continuing their walks in our direction.

Wolfdog breeders seem to think it is normal to have such a long heat in wolfdog (also the vet who is doing progesterone tests), but my regular veterinarian is concerned about development of cystic endometrial hyperplasia due to long heat. He says that a bitch should not be in heat longer than 4 weeks.

So any vets here (I know about Ina but there may be more?) - what is your opinion? Should I be concerned? Should I let him stop her cycle, if this continues and if, then when?

o.k. I will shut up, even if I wouldn´t stop it now.
Nebulosa?

Oh, I hope you didn't understand that I am not interested in your opinion, because I am, and very much. I just wanted to ask every vet here what their opinon is...

I'm student without experience in CzW heath.. the first one I saw was in Jezebeth past month, and i'm still not sure if it really's end or not ;-)
So in truth I was waiting your reply. :)

I think I got some answers from reading this post...:ehmmm

But...just to clarify, since I think things maybe different with this breed than other dogs, I'd like to hear some experiences and thoughts from people with experience:o

1. What seems to be typical for a CSV - coming into heat once a year, or twice a year...or every 8 months?

2. How long is a typical heat cycle in a CSV?

3. Are heat cycles affected by temperature/climate?

4. In other breeds, it is considered bad to breed during the first heat, but other breeds also come into heat much earlier (I think...my oldest CSV is 16 months, and still has not had hers...). Is it considered safe to breed with a first or second heat cycle with the CSV?

5. What is considered a "safe" age to do a first breeding with a female CSV (if health tests are clear)?

6. Is there a "normal" time between the first signs of bleeding, and when the female CSV will accept a male?

Thanks for any answers!
Marcy

mostly 8-12 month

It depends in my experience very much on a male dog in the family that is seen as a potential partner by the bitch. Then it is the normal 2,5-3 weeks. When there is none it can go over weeks without any pathological reasons. Saschias bitch was succesfully mated so obviously everything was physiological

Not very much more by other bitches in heat

I think you shouldn´t breed before they are fully grown, as some bitches don´t come into heat before they are 2-2,5 years old there is no reason not to mate them in their first heat then. I wouldn´t breed before the age of 2 depending on the bitch, she will be a better mother when she is adult. Our younger bitches always have been nannies of the puppies of the older ones and have had the opportunity to learn and all dogs care for the puppies of the actual litter I don´t think it is a good idea to mate them too early and without experience, the puppies learn very much of their mother and familiy, the mother has to be matured for being a full potential mother.

Our bitches are in this period around the 14th (Bschka) to the 20th day (Amy)

Ina

I am not a vet and I can only tell you my experiences as breeder (of several breed) :rock_3

The most CsW I know between 8 and 13 months

I did see (and did hear of other breeders) a lot of differences in wolfdog breed. Some 2,5 weeks till even 6 weeks and even with 6 weeks a normal covering and pregnancy did follow! My own female always about 30 days (even when there was a male at home)

I really don’t know, but I did hear for example of a breeder in Israel her dog was in heat every 12 months. An other interesting thing I did discuss before with other breeders in CZ: in east Europe countries most females are in heat in autumn. But in west Europe a lot of them in later months (my female always in January/February)

I never mate a female (of any breed) the first heat. I always wait till they are more grown up. And then for a CsW it means sometimes first covering with 3 years.

Comparing with my other breed there is not a “normal” time with wolfdogs! My CsW female did accept the males between 25 and 28 days. And there was no difference if there was a male at home or not.

But I know a lot of case with “strange heats”, like for example a split heat, of wolfdogs (CsW and SWH) without any pathological reasons, but sometimes maybe physiological reasons. And sometimes the owner never find out what was the reason!

Hi,

me bitch have 3 litters and who I see:
shes perod is 12-13 monts.
shes heat is (and shes daughter) about 3 monts for first blooding days.
for mate she be in end 3 monts and all thime when i mate she have healt litter from 7-8-9 pupps.
shes first heat be in 18 monts, shes daughter in 18-25 monts ( 2 diferenc litter)
i have in me house dogs, and see always first blooding days, and have a male, but to mating days be easy - he only chceck she and nothing, when be mating he be crazy about 1 weeks and in this week have mate and pupps.

me very like this heat type.

hello, for my female, Deymah, heats are very complicated has to envisage. The first heavy bleeding started is its 2 years old, 1 week, then more nothing, to take again 1 month later, and for 3 months!!!!!!! The second heats arrived 2-3 month after, and this time lasted 1 month.
Then its last heats arrived 6-8 month afterwards, they lasted 1 month.
This time us made cover, the period of proestrus lasted 14 days, we carried out 3 cervical smears and 2 progesterone proportionings in order to determine the date of ovulation. Here are what passed at home with my bitch.

The mother of Deymah, Osa Hlas Divociny has heats every 8 month which last 3 months….

Already had this case there?

Afflicted for my English, i use a translator…

so long, Martial

Thank you everyone, for your responses!

My GSD came into heat the other day (when I first wrote on this thread). She is like a clock every 6 months (she has never been bred), so I wondered if Anthea would soon be following her. And she did - her first heat started yesterday. I think it will be a long week for my poor male, Roni. He misses his women! 8)

Now I think I have some idea of what to expect!

Marcy

Topic up :)

As we started talking about how bad it is to hide or just not to talk about the problems that CsW have... I want to talk about the problems with the reproductional system of some of our girls.
In my case, Brukne first went on heat being 23 months old (March 2008) after staying for a week wit her sister. I wasn't planning to mate her on the first heat, so I didn't care too much about the progesteron levels or smth, just noticed, that males weren't too interested in her at that time. After a year she came on heat again. This time we were checking the progesteron and taking swabs, but it seemed, that she wasn't trying to ovulate. Finally, the vet said, she is not on heat anymore (it is a pitty, we didn't make a progesteron test then, because after ovulation - in case it happened but we missed one - it increases a lot). After that we gave her some ovarium compositum injections - it is a homeopatic medicine, helping with reproductive system. In autumn, we gave her some more of it and vitamins A and E, which should gently push her in going on heat. Nothing :roll: She started to "mark" outside sometimes, I made some progesteron tests, thinking, this could be a silent heat, but no, nothing. Echoscopy shows she is a healthy female, also she is in a good form, but living with no other dogs. Still she meets her male friend Argentinian dog nearly every day. We are waiting for another heat to come and really nervous we could miss the ovulation or that she will not ovulate again... And I know there are more bitches like Brukne (still her sisters, at least two of three, are having normal heats). Does anyone has any advices or comments, "recipes" or success stories in this case or similar situations? Thanks.

I had different problem with Frei - instead of no ovulation / silent heat and not much interest of dogs, she had long proestrus with a lot of interest from males, and with coming to heat twice a year she was almost half of the year unable to play with her male friends as they were only trying to mate her. When I wanted her to mate, I went to doc for vaginal swabs and later for progesterone to be able to time the trip (I went around 900 km for mating), and the progress from proestrus to estrus was very long. But then her behavior changed suddenly from general interest in playing with males to strong standing heat and that day also her progesterone jumped to correct levels. We went for mating and were successful... The next heat we did not mate as it was only 10 months after previous, but this time her proestrus was shorter (less than 3 weeks) and she finished the standing heat just a month after starting the bleeding (but she bled and smelled nice to dogs for another couple of weeks). So I am not sure if the pregnancy was good for her or if the reproduction develops with age regardless of pregnancy. But I know that her great-grandmother (my previous wolfdog) and one female from my first litter also had very long proestrus, so it might run in the families.

Chaos Zlata palz always had problems with her heat, she got in heat and stopped before ovulation, they tried to give her much contact to males but even this didn´t help. They went to an endocrinology specialist and they found out she was showing hyperthyreodistic levels in her bloodcheck. Hyperthyreosis normally doesn´t exist in dogs and she was perfectly healthy, out of experience the specialist checked her diet and found out that her owners were feeding the throat part of cattles as a treat regulary. This part contains the thyreoid gland of the cattle, fed regulary it pushes the dog into an artificial Hyperthyreosis. After they changed the diet she got into regular heat, was mated without problems and got a healthy litter.

Also very often a reason for prolonged heat with no or still ovulation: not contact to males or a dominant female close by. We have to separate Amy from her mother or she stops her heat at once. Her mother isn´t dominating her at all, she is just higher in rank.

Ina

How often did you do the progesteron tests?
Brukne's sister from the same litter has the similar heat as your Frei, just it seems like she will not be used in breeding. Both girls could change the way they come on heats 8)

:shock: Aaa... maybe there's any information about some other parts of cattle that also can put a dog in same conition? Brukne is fed raw meat, sea fish and sour milk products, maybe there ight be something wrong in her diet? :roll: Maybe giving the necks of turkeys or chicken may cause the same problem?

Could a human be considered a "dominant female"?... One of our vets nearly called me an idiot after this kind of question, but still :lol:

Is it possible that if a female lives in a pack of humans, she might recognize her owners to be the Alpha couple and this could impede her ovulation?

****
Hihi, the same question asked independently!

very often you get those parts mixed into the raw dog food you can buy already mashed, after I learned about this problem I look very carefully which part of animal is used for the mixture.

As dogs build up some very special kind of family-relations with humans I wouldn´t deny this in general. Even our female-wolf, who as a wolf doesn´t build up the same kind of bonding, is very submissiv against me now she comes in breading season, but she gets in heat. The breading season is the most dangerous time for humans with handraised wolves, so I think it is even much more likely for dogs that the human relationsship can have an influence on very few dogs.

You can see the thyreoid glands and I never saw them on turkey or chicken necks.

We went four times together - I think it was every third day or so... Too long ago for me to remeber exactly, to say the truth. I was beggining to get nervous, as my vet didn't like her to be bleeding for so long and tried to persuade me to give her hormones to end the heat. But I resisted, as I know from other breeders that some wolfdogs just have long heats and they are otherwise healthy... And than the change in behavior was so pronounced that I actually went for the test just to see how high her level was, and it was not so much higher... Last heat the behavior change was also very abrupt - so now I know that it is a safe marker with Frei and will not have to go for tests.. They are quite expensive in Slovakia, so Frei's pregnancy was almost a luxury for me from the financial standpoint.

whew, I didn't know this... I feed Frei with the same part but pork, not for some time now, due to her being fat so she was on low-calories diet, but I was planning to get on feeding raw again... I will have her tested then, just to be sure. I don't think the gland was attached, but I'll check to make sure. Fortunately I prefer the unmixed version of pork throat as I thought there is too much lung tissue in the mixed and Frei tends to have diarrhea from too much lung/liver tissues...

But parrots do have thyreoid glands in their necks, so are turkeys and chickens that much diferent? :roll:

They have thyreoid glands but normally they sit deeper than in mammals - as far as I can remember, it´s very long time ago:cry:. But you see the gland it is sitting on the structures when the skin is gone. Chicken shouldn´t be such a problem cause it is not very big but if you feed several times a week the gland of a cattle it is like giving it as a drug.

But when you feed turkey and chicken necks it is usually only the spine, not the trachea, esophagus etc.

But many people feed cattle throats which are still with Trachea and Oesophagus and on the Trachea sits the Thyreoidea

I've just read an article about the lack of iodine in the organism of people (this is a very important problem in LT, the lack of iodine, every time I go to doctors - and this is very rare in fact - they send me to check my thyroid :D) Maybe there would be useful to put some extra iodine to dog's diet? Like dried seaweed on the daily meal? That could not make any harm :roll:

If you feed them saltwater fish this should be enough but giving a little bit more with seaweed won´t harm them.

Well, saltwater fish is not her favorite meal, so she gets it about two or four times a month, not sure if it is enought. Will try to add some more seaweeds too. Thanks :)

Hahaha, this is becoming a funny story :)
Checked Brukne's urine, done three different blood tests, echoscopy, swab... Checked also the thyroid. She is a perfectly healthy bitch :lol: Just she doesn't want to have kids yet. Emanicipation 8)

Absolutely!!
As far as I know "Walkiria" means "Valkyrie" - an earthly warrior cannot waste her time with kids :lol::lol::lol:

Yes, and her name suits her so much :evil: We'll try to put some photos of little puppies around her and maybe some soft toys :evil: :lol: