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Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed or not?
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Best regards / Mikael |
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So if the Wolfdog-users are for it we will make it so and remove ALL litters with unknown HD-results by the parents... It is YOUR decision.... |
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So there is only the question of publishing litters from Italy, France, Holland and Hungary (in Poland we solved it on unofficial way and with one exception all breeders use only x-rayed dogs 8))... |
In my humble opinion - the litters of parents, who are not HD tested should not be announced here :roll: Is there a possibility, lets say, to vote about ir on wolfdog.org?
(In fact i think that also litters of not bonitated parents should not be announced here, but I also understand there would sooooooo little litters then...) |
Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed or not?
Please vote.... :rock_3
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Should be announced, to avoid "hiding things", but with a big warning marked along ;).
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Hmmmmm, good idea... i think, we want (I hope) to do our breed better. So I mean: Not liiters without HD results and not litters without bonitations....It is hard, but we want to have CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS and not "some wolfdogs".
Maybe Margo, you will have problem with not complette database. But-maybe- some "producers" will start "to breed" wolfdogs. If no, not pitty of theese dogs....It is nothing good for breed. Look at offer of breeding males: how much males have HD result AND bonitation ??? |
Hi hi, sorry , I am a litlle OT: the nervosite start to be bigger, because nobody react to adds here (on Wolfdog) of "some" breeders and they are a little in a panic :lol::lol:
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To make bonitation it is not so easy because you can not to travel 100 km (as in Czech Republic) to the next bonitation but sometimes 1000km or 2000km... :rock_3 When the club will start to organize bonitations in their own countries and it would be no problem for everyone to make this test we will also make it as the condition to have litter posted here.... :p |
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I think it would be at shame not to have a complete database.
Not all countries have law saying that you must have HD or bonitation for your dogs to breed, even I think it would be better for the breed if it was like that, but in all matters(not only for the good of our breed) everybody will have a lot more benefit with helping people in the right direction by giving them a hand and argue for what we think is best for our breed, instead of excluding them ! Not all have to have the same ideas and opinions like me to be my friends, when you turn your back at people they don`t have a chance to improove, why not help them instead ? in this way we will have a better and stronger breed at the end and maybe other countries will follow the example of Czech rep., Slovakia and Germany ? This is my opinion ! Rolf |
But Margo, in EVERY country can be club for this breed and this club CAN do bonitations. But I see how BIG problem it is somewhere:rock_3.
And I think, of course, in every country is some doctor what can do X-ray result. |
You know what I think Margo...
Throw them out the back :mad:...:) Best regards / Mikael |
Sorry, I missunderstod...
Maby it would be enough to not let them sell litters on this site ??? Regards / Mikael |
I voted no, because I understood the question as whether the litters from not Xrayed/bonitated parents should or should not be included in the database and visible to anybody. But I thing they should not be included in advertisement of puppies.
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But I think like you, it would be better whit a complite database and not let them sell the puppies whitout HD results. This way in a short distance future all breeders will add the HD results to the database by (free) will. Best regads / Mikael |
Hmmm. And: what we can see from adds on this site. In this moment is there 74 adds. 47litters have parents WITHOUT bonitation. It can be potentential danger, the pups will have some exterier defect, gen defect or parents have too bad character. Hmmmm. 21 litters is from parents (or one parent) without HD result. So pups from 21 litters can be bad for future breeding, they CAN have some problems. Only 29 litters (from 74!) is without problem and new owner will have hogher %, the puppy will be health and OK. Really, good result of short history of our breed.....:(
But in some countries somebody will NEVER control, if wolfdogs are health and stabil breed. And we will tell to everybody: "Yeees, it is health breed, it is good breed for training, for sports. " ha ha ha Really sad view to our breed from countries of origin, what hapenned with this breed. So Margo, I can tell you, what will be result of our voting....29:45 if will vote every person, what have adds here....29 for good future of our breed against 45 of producers. Maybe hard words, but true. |
my 2 cents:
All litters should be allowed an ad on this site, without HD results, with Bad HD results, without bonitation, even those coming from kennels which Margo decided not to advertise any more (:rock_3) To do a good service to buyers, these litters should be showed SEPARATELY!! Group 1) hd results and bonitation Group 2) hd results and no bonitation (for some countries bonitation is not compulsory so it is not always "fault") Group 3) no complete Hd results (even if only one parent has...) and no bonitation. I believe people would start worrying and want their litter to be in group 1... Maybe group 1 should have most evidence and the others will appear down on the site and only if you scroll down... So, NO censoring new litters but distinguishing between breeders who work hard and get results and breeders who don't care. Massimo |
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I analysed the actual litters and, considering "youth" bonitations as not good for breeding (we all know how youth bonitations do not take into consideration certaing factors and shouldn't be considered as valid for breeding...), the new advertisments for litters would look like this:
Group A litters: both parents with HD results and Bonitation nov-08 1 z Holštejna nov-08 20 z Údolí ticha nov-08 20 z Blatnických vinic nov-08 28 Taabernakkelin nov-08 30 Waawanyanka dic-08 1 z Kopá?kova dvora dic-08 1 od Úhošt? dic-08 5 von der Wolfsranch dic-08 15 de Molay dic-08 19 z Revíru vlk? dic-08 21 Kuklík dic-08 22 Polární vlk dic-08 23 z V?rné sme?ky dic-08 29 spod ?umbiera dic-08 31 Braterstwo wilczaków gen-09 10 z Údolí st?íbra gen-09 12 Tasha gen-09 15 la Blackwolfdog Cie gen-09 15 St?íbrný úpln?k gen-09 17 Norský vlk gen-09 20 z Datova ráje gen-09 24 vom Dreiburgenblick gen-09 25 z Devínskej g gen-09 31 Sioux Tala feb-09 1 Foresta Incantata feb-09 6 ??? feb-09 17 Olim Palus feb-09 21 Outlaws Heaven Group B litters: both parents with HD results but not with Bonitation ott-08 10 Terre dell'Est nov-08 10 Yggdrasill nov-08 22 Sulle Orme del Lupo dic-08 1 od Úhošt? dic-08 12 du Domaine de la Combe Noire dic-08 20 Crying Wolf dic-08 20 du Domaine de la Combe Noire dic-08 23 del Montale dic-08 29 ??? (priv de Angeli) dic-08 29 du Domaine de la Combe Noire dic-08 29 Braterstwo wilczaków gen-09 1 z Peronówki gen-09 1 Arimminum gen-09 3 delle Ombre d'Argento gen-09 16 Grey Diamond gen-09 18 Casa della Rosa gen-09 24 vom Westerwälder Berg gen-09 25 Crying Wolf gen-09 25 z Peronówki gen-09 27 Outlaws Heaven gen-09 30 Wilczy Duch gen-09 30 Lupi di Monte Morello feb-09 1 Foresta Incantata feb-09 15 Foresta Incantata ott-08 15 de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale Group C litters: both parents NOT with HD results or Bonitation nov-08 8 Lupi dei Camurati nov-08 10 les P'tits Loups d'Amour nov-08 13 von Neckartal nov-08 15 ??? (priv Ascheri) dic-08 1 z Orel Ochrana dic-08 4 Gardiens de la Cour dic-08 5 Gardiens de la Cour dic-08 6 Balze del Lupo dic-08 10 de la Louve Blanche dic-08 12 della Vittoria Alata dic-08 15 von Königs-Terry dic-08 20 la Valle del Lupo dic-08 20 Crying Wolf dic-08 25 il Paradiso del Lupo gen-09 1 z Orel Ochrana gen-09 15 Inguz Felan gen-09 15 de l'Ange Gardien de Faujus gen-09 15 de l'Ange Gardien de Faujus gen-09 25 Crying Wolf feb-09 5 de l'Arche du Férion mar-09 1 de la Louve Blanche What do you think? massimo |
hmm me like this method. and this groupe A, B, C help to people see who is who.
what think others? |
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Not having ad on wolfdog doesn't mean the people will not sell the litters... On the contrary: when there is a "suspect" litter wiith bad HD result or other problems, we speak a lot about it on forums and things like this, and breeders and owners are alerted by such conditions. Instead, no evidence on WD means the "csw community" doesn't know anything about it... things happen in the mist...strange crossings are being done but nobody knows about them! :lol: p.s. Margo is not ugly... but she is a witch, i'm sure!! ;-) massimo |
sorry, almost forgot:
of course rules for entering Groups A, B, C should be clear so breeders who post new litters know that if they don't send Margo official HD test and bonitation for both parents, then they can forget being in group A. Dream? all litters published in Group A and B and C totally empty! There are many dogs which I know for sure that they have HD results but in the litters they are not published, so they go to group C straight away. Owners will take take of that and be more carefull, i'm sure! massimo |
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It is not possible to stop breeders who don`t care about HD anyway, but I am sure that all serious breeders want to be in group 1 and in this way it is still possible to see a complete list of litters... Greetings Rolf |
I agree with groups too. Something (for begin) is better than nothing.
And Group A will have Font number 18 and group C will have Font number 4:lol::lol: |
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ok 18 - 4 is too much but... MORE EVIDENCE to Group A!! Breeders who work a lot on their litters, train, bonitate etc should be somehow PRIZED for it. For example if your dog may be the most beautiful wolfdog around, I admit it, but if he doesn't have adult bonitation and you breed with him, it's your choice, so you DON'T go to group A!! massimo |
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Maby not the best, but certainly better then nothing :cool3 This way the database will stay compleat to :) And in the future maby the step will not be as big as now to throw some breeders out the back :rock_3 Best regards / Mikael |
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Regards / Mikael |
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Hear! Hear! - to separate categories! :beer
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very good idea Massimo! really! So many people don't know what is the "bonitation" and in this case they can start to look for the definition, ask why etc:)
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The idea of Massimo is rational and intelligent.
But attention we risk to create a damage to all breeder's that live distant or isolated more kilometers from the serius bonitation's . I live in the south Italy and I don't believe in the Italian club, I hope will do it more' soon in other country's, but for now for personal problems I have not succeeded there still. I think that they are also found in analogous situations friends that live in remote country or where the clubs of breed are not well developed. I' asked my this question: ... are my dogs healthy(hd A;hd B), are they wolfish ,apparently without great defects , and a great beautiful character I don't have make them join without bonitation? This question could seem banal and stupid in a race where there are a lot of genetic variability and where the rules of breeding are attentively respected And why they will became "B series" dog's? I have great respect for your opinions and I attentively read often you, you excuse mine bad English, but important semms to me submit this reflection to your attention. |
I think this is a very good solution :fingers1
Martial |
Goup B don't mean they're worst, but that they don't have Bonitation, only that.
I don't see problems in it.. won't be separe as "group A, B and C", but by colors only :) |
I still believe the separation should be done in groups and NOT only by colours.
For Peppe: you live far away from "serious bonitations" and I understand this. But you could, by making some extra efforts, go to slovakia or germany or czech republic. DOGS are not "B series" as if it was a football championship. it is not the DOGS which are in discussion but the breeders efforts. Breeders who travel thousands of kilometers deserve to have special reward for traveling all that distance. You live far away but I know people who came all the way from Denmark to Serramazzoni only for a dog show or others who drove 3.000km from Finland to Slovakia only for a summer camp. If you want, it will cost you more efforts, but you can. Let's fix the conditions in such way, I am sure all will make more efforts to have suitable requirements. Also, please look at the list I posted. Some breeders I consider EXCELLENT have litters in Group B just because they used a MALE which doesn't have bonitation or used a dog which has just youth bonitation and not adult bonitation. They remain, for me, excellent breeders but chose their way in a respectful manner. Massimo Massimo |
I have voted yes, but agree with Massimo's idea: 3 groups. That will give all information and nothing will be hidden.
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But I still think group´s are the best solution. I think A and B breeders are good and responsible breeders, C breeders however are not eaven trying to be serious and destroy´s the breed and therefore does not eaven deserve to be on C. Maby A breeders, B breeders and E breeders is better :rock_3 and in color :) Best regards / Mikael |
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I think it is a good idea to show somehow, which breeders are responsible and do care for the health of the breed and which ones do not. In Germany bonitation is not necessary for getting breeding permission. Yet, many good breeders do take care for their dogs having bonitation - and the German Club does offer bonitation in Germany once a year. Therefore I also think bonitation is good for the breed - although bonitations have to be looked at very carefully... BUT with "B-list" I see the following problem for stud dogs for the countries, in which bonitation is not necessary for breeding permission: Sometimes people have good and interesting males as "family dogs" - but sometimes those people are not really interested in breeding. So sometimes the breeder can persuade them to get breeding permission for the male, and they will do it. But the big problem is, that you probably won't get the owner of the male to drive hundreds of kilometers to do a bonitation for this dog - if it is not required. So now - if you as breeder use this stud dog for your bitch and it is a good and responsible mating - you will be in "B-list", even if all your dogs do have bonitation - and "just" because the male does not have bonitation... So it might be a reason, not to take this stud dog - although it would be a good mating??? One of my questions is about HD results in database... If a dog is 5 years old, has had litters and there is no HD results in the database - I think it is clear: there are no x-rayed hipps and no HD results (or bad results and not published...) . So checking the database I can see myself, that the mated dogs are not x-rayed (and maybe not bonitated). But how about the young breeding dogs?? If there is no HD results in the database - is it, because they are x-rayed, and the results are with Margo already - but not entered in the database yet? Or is it, because the dog is not x-rayed (or with bad HD results) and the results are not with margo (yet)???? Petra |
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It doesn't mean the puppies will be without displasia, just that the parents health is certified. A litters should be distinguished from B litters because also morphologica characteristics have been certified, not only health of Parents. Example is Peppe's sentance above: my dogs are healthy, they are wolfish, apparently without great defects, beautiful character, why shouldn't they mate? They should, if you want, you are the breeder and it's your choice. BUT... there is no certification of their character and morphological qualities from an experienced judge. YOU know that they are without defects, and if I buy a dog from you, I must trust YOU. Allow me to say, no offense, that if Margo or Hanka or other experienced breeders use a dog without adult bonitation (B group), I would take a puppy from them because I trust them or I know they have experience. Before I took a puppy from somebody else, I would have to see the parents personally first and be 100% sure of my choice. I will make a stupid example: i met a breeder who was confident about his dogs, beautiful dogs, went to a couple of shows (not experienced breed judges but normal allrounder judges) who mated his dogs. Puppies grew up and somebody underlined to him that 70% of the litter had teeth problems (missing teeth). He then discovered (when puppies were 1 year old...) that both parents had same teeth problems and transmitted this to puppies... but HE never noticed it!! I could have made the same mistake myself, I must admit... but my dogs have been bonitated and I've been to shows with experienced judges who check everything, even teeth! Massimo |
bonjour, le fait d'avoir la bonitation ainsi que les radios me semble et nous semble à beaucoup d'entre nous une chose importante. C'est aussi pourquoi j'ai voulut pour la première portée de ma chienne les avoir.
il est bien dommage que beaucoup n'y pretent pas attention et font de la reproduction sans .... pour ce qui est de la bonitation c'est vrai que certain chien l'ont pas, cependant il suffit de regarder quel éleveur les ont pas, et après à chacun de se faire sa propre opinion suivant l'éleveur en question. sur certain mariage effectué chez certains éleveurs , je sais que si je recherchais un chien, j'irais sans crainte sans la bonitation hello, the fact d' to have the bonitation as well as the radios seems to me and seems to us with much d' between us an important thing. C' is also why j' have wanted for the first range of my bitch to have them. it is well damage that much n' do not pay attention and make reproduction to it without…. as regards the bonitation c' is true that certain dog l' do not have, afterwards however it is enough to look at which stockbreeder do not have them, and with each one to form its own opinion according to l' stockbreeder in question. about certain marriage carried out in certain stockbreeders, I know that if I sought a dog, j' would go without fear without the bonitation sorry for the tanslation :lol: , my english ............... :roll: :lol: Martial |
I propose further improvements :rock_3:
Litters whose parents have fairly done bonitation should be indicated in light green, and those with "lifted" results - dark green:ehmmm Litters bred by nice, friendly breeders should carry a pink ribbon, and those of unpleasant individuals - a black one. :evil_lol Any more suggestions? :twisted::lol::lol::lol: I just want to draw your attention to the fact that apart from "technical" info there are elements/ factors that do not fit into any system(s). I saw unbonitated dogs, that were healthy and lovable. I saw small dogs whose pups grew up to 72 cm. And I also heard of a bonitated dog with P1 that only the owner dared to touch and always with a treat in his hand. (one may wonder how was the P1 obtained :shock:) I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.8) |
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I also think that it just should be possible for all breeders to advertise there litters, just because on this site you can find all info of the World of CSW. And otherwise its got a little bit the taste of censor :|. Groette Martine. |
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or that the parents are frendley. But you talk about that 1cm and the bad bonitation judges, and that is a nother problem. A system whit A, B and C will make it beter, not perfect. Regards / Mikael |
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Please make suggestions and what YOU consider improvements, saying this or that is not good without giving any positive input doesn't help anybody. massimo |
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There is no JUDGEMENT on Studs, Bitches or Litter. It is just MORE direct information to users of this site. Nobody said that the "green" Group A litter is better than the "red" group C one... just that on the Group A you have more direct information than the group C. I think this has been already explained in other posts but it seems not to be clear enough. From my point of view I have written even too much so I will no longer write anything on this thread. Massimo |
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2. I do understand the proposed system. 3. I'm not against the system in principle, but I'm trying to anticipate the effects it'd bring - remember that intensions are one thing, and the results of its implementations - another. Lenin also meant well :twisted: (not that I compare Massimo to Lenin :p:)) The danger is, that however hard you'd try to convince potential owners that a 'yellow litter' is OK according to legal regulations in many countries that do not require bonitation (X-raying is another issue because it's available everywhere) most of them will try to purchase a pup from a "green" list. It may result in: 1. Much higher prices of "green" litters 2. More 'result lifting' at bonitations 3. Even more ill feelings among breeders (gossiping to downgrade the greenness of the litters) 4. disappointment of the buyers (I bought a pup from a green litter, paid a fortune for it and it has faults) In fact introduction of the system would promote Czech national regulations concerning breeding. But why not base it on the Slovakian or German ones and additionally require "running exams" and ED results- and mark the dogs that have those? You may try to explain again and again on WD or wherever what the colours mean and what the intentions were, but HOW the new owners will understand it - is a completley different matter.:| I have no idea how to improve it and I don't propose anything, but I believe it's good to look at such a proposal from various sides before any final decisions are made. |
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Just think the way it is it is perfect 8). Let people think/judge for themself ;-). Groette Martine. |
To Rona
I think the intensions are to make the CsV healty and more standard like. And I think it will be more easy fore the buyers to buy the dog they wont. And hopefully thanks to this system, there will only be A and B breeders in the future :rock_3 But even if you buy from A and B it is not a 100% guarantee, but the chance to get a healty pup is mush bigger. This is not about the breeders or there gossip, or even money... It is about the breed !!! and a way to provent unnecessary suffering fore the dogs !!! Best regards / Mikael |
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when will they have the chance to choose ??? :evil: / Mikael |
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And whit this system many of them will hopefully not be born from parents whit bad HD results. But you think it is OK to not eaven do a X-ray, or am I wrong ??? / Mikael |
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But I think it is idealistic to think, when you do not allow those litters anymore or put them in the redzone on WD. They now gone make x-rays and bonitate there dogs and maybe because of the badresult they do not breed anymore with there dogs. And all of this because of a boxsystem on WD ? Maybe in a idealworld. There are breeders who do not use WD at all to advertise there pups, they do not have hd results and bonitationcode :evil: and dispite of that sell all of the pups :|. Groette Martine. |
You excuse me,probably I am badly me express.
The most correct thing is to make a bonitation, obviously. I have made my example to underline how much they would want but today they have not succeeded unfortunately still in doing a correct bonitation. And I want to repeat not for superficiality but for different problems,more kilometre's, job ,study etc... Obviously before making to join my dogs, I have talked with different friends and breeders and I have been sorry a lot not to have been able to make the bonitation . Certainly if I bring my dogs in the beach between peaople, children and other dogs of all the kinds without leash I have something of very indicative on their character, it doesn't have the objective characteristics of a bonitation it is true, but I have face too many wolf-dog's difficult in adoption for not trust that they are right for riproduction. I know well that I am not Margo, Hanka, and not even Massimo, but I hope to be on the correct road . Very probably next year we will make the bonitation and we will also end in the lists of the good ; ones but my thought go to how much they have very good dogs and they cannot make the bonitation, we should be our care to try to recover them for the race, also to the light of the poor genetic variability. Your idea is sensible and going to in the sense to give an important contribution to the breeding, but we should also invent us a system to involve those isolated people that have very interesting dogs and whose blood should be brought around for the europa, so we risks to close even more us on if same. |
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All they have to do is X-ray there dogs before they breed !!! It is easy to do in all country´s, and it is not to expensive neather. And fore the breeders that do not use WD.org today, we can do nothing. If there dream is to breed whitout HD tests it is a pity, but nothing we can do anything about. / Mikael |
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But if you see the litterlist, there are enough people for who it is a huge problem to make a X-ray :roll:. |
I think the idea is pretty good, I understand it perfectly, but people are forgething some important little things
First of all, lets see one reallity wich was completly forgothen here, bonitation isn't acessible for everyone, we have already 2 registered breeders in americas, me and Wildenmorgen, do you really think is that easy take a plane, make all documents for the dogs and travel to europe for make a bonitation? People, if I travel with my dogs more than 1 time per 2 years I will pay'd taxes for my OWN dogs back to MY country as if I had buy then outsite, I will need minimally 6 months of exams in the dogs for they get the CZI for MAYBE enter in europe, they will need travel almost one full day or more without water or food, lonely in cages as baggage! I can travel only 1 time per 2 years, so, I will fell really stupid if I lost this only opportunity to bring new bloodlined dogs easy to my country for do a bonitation! I don't want blame bonitation here, but we all know that this isn't so rellyable at point of we do all this way only for make bonitations. For we bring bonitations we will need bring the judges all this way, I saw how was difficult for Belgiun club make the bonitation, I cannot imagine how will be for the judges comes here, and this is the only one of the high amount of problems we normally have for make important events specific for a breed because the size of the country.. maybe the guys wich have a CzW in French Guiana will drive by car more than 10.000 km for go to an bonitation in Brasil, if theyr cars support the roads prototypes we have in north. But this is our own problems, you're all have nothing to do with this, futurelly I hope we will soon have more breeders here and they automatically will fall in B class independant how good and criterious is theyr selection, and , as Rona remeber perfectly, we will understand the only few differences wich exists between the two groups, but other people not, we will be ever like a "second class" independand of wich we do... togheter with some breeders in europe that live close to orign country and dont dare to go and bonitate their dogs or by fear of receive a P14 or for lack of time, or maybe by lazyness and careless. people isn't able to differ good and bad breeders, will never understand this little difference in B group. ;-) But now think in the breed, more important than Bonitation surelly is the ED results, I know we have few dogs with this problem but we still have, ED results are acessible for every country do and is really important, some dogs in this list have this problem and only who saw their in reallity will have a little notion that , maybe, the dog wich moves strange on dogshows have probems in elbows, and here, we're talking about a illness worst to control than HD because it's genetic. In same way we can think about working exams, exams are the way to proof your dog can work, we know of course some cases of dogs wich pass because the test was done in it's own garden or because the helpler was the owner or someone the dog was already accostumate to attack, but it's better than nothing, important is let the breed continues to be a working dog like it was created, in countries like France that protection cannot be made, it's possible to make track tests, obedience and so on. CzW must show itself more as working dog than it's now, I believe more in dogs wich have BH and others tests than one Of in bonitation, and, well, working exams have in all countries too, being acessible for everyone without difficulty. I think Bonitation surelly is important, but until now it isn't acessible for everyone for be such crucial in a global list. |
To Nebulosa
I think people will understand that the breeders in America are not abel to bonitate :rock_3 I also think that a dog from a B-breeder whit good working results are beter than a dog from a A-breeder whit only a bonitation as working (title) But I do not think we can do the system after you, or other breeders in America or breeders far away like Finland, Sweden, Israel etc... I might find my self on the B list one day, and I do not se this as a big problem at all...:rock_3 It is what is best fore the breed that is important here, nothing else :) Regards / Mikael |
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I'm afraid you didn't read my post carefully:cry: |
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Regards / Mikael |
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If database is kept actual - all informations about HD results and bonitation of parents can be found in the litter ads with one click... |
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Although the system seems very rational from the "founders'" point of view, I'm not sure it will bring the required results. The 'red litters' will probably dissapear from WD but it doesn't mean that they won't occur.... In the long run there will be even less information on what is happening to the breed than now. As I said - this is not my problem, I'm only trying to act devil's advocate :peace |
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So, what I, you or Hanka will think about it won't matter because you're informed, you know what is a bonitation and what is needed, but others not. This is the only problem. Suppossing you will be breeder, so, your kennel, that do things right, that make all exams but unfortunatelly that haven't time enough for make all tryp and bonitate your dogs, you will be the same as any other irresponsible, lazy or "too much occupied for its dogs" kennel that live at side of the original countries and don't have bonitate theyrs dog by fear or lack quality, for not informed people, wich not know genetics, lines and so on, we're all be the same. I really don't want a different Database for who live far, but I think that have more important things that may be valuated than only bonitation to put a dog in A or B class. Other important thing, this is a database, so, when more information we get better for us and the breed, by the way I think litters without HD may not be announced, but I think that these litters without HD when not announced not leave futurelly informations for us about the pupies that born. These information can be gold, if in these litter had a displasic dog, if not, how many die and so on, so I don't think the site must be so restrict in the announcement, the good point in all this topic is that divide litters and even breeders by categories will allow everybody announce and fullfill the information about theyrs litters, so, we will have more information here, but, we need think really well before do anything. But you know... the main goal is kill Przemek working :p |
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The system is not perfect, but I still think it is better than to not give the buyers any guidance at all ;-) But maby B sounds bad ? And the buyers will se it like a B-class... Maby group A1 and A2 is better and the breeders whitout HD tests are to be B breeders ??? Maby both A1 and A2 can be in green and B in yellow or red... Group A1 Group A2 Group B or Group B What do you all think about this ??? Best regards / Mikael |
But why use A,B or C categories or colours that mean/indicate categories? Why not put letter symbols by the litters, and by clicking at them they would open the explanation, just like it is with the bonitation codes.
BX/BX (would mean both parents bonitated and X-rayed) BX/X (both parents X-rayed, one additionally bonitated) X/X (both parents X-rayed, none of them bonitated) UX/X (one parent without HD result, another X-rayed, none of them bonitated) UX/BX (one parent unX-rayed, another bonitated and X-rayed) etc. In this way boniation would be an important asset of the dog, but it's lack - not a particular disadvantage, HD result - a basic asset but the lack of X , i.e. the UX - an indicated disadvantage. In this way X/X would be the minimal standard advised to the buyer to look for, and XB/XB - the highest. On the other hand, the system would have more informative character than judgemental. Any reaction to this?:ehmmm |
Or maybe it is enought just to do one simple thing - when one opens the information about the litter (any of them - with HD or without it, bonitated or not), he sees big bold letters on the upper part of the page (before the photos of parents), something like: "Attention. HD results are important, because....., pay your attention to the bonitation code, it is important because..." The formulation should be short and clear :roll:
Usually people simply do not know how important HD is, also nobody knows about bonitation if had nothing in common with CsW before. |
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to many codes :| Way not keep it simple A, B, C or 1, 2, 3 ??? Regards / Mikael |
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2nd code - X (X-rayed) 3rd code - UX (unX-rayed) Too many? :shock::lol: |
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And whit all the combinations of those codes it gets complicated... In the begining of your post you say BX and in the end you cal the same thing XB... complicated eaven for you maby :rock_3 :lol: Regards / Mikael |
Maybe something like this...
Litters * Link to article on BONITATION * Link to article on IMPORTANCE OF HIP DYSPLASIA TESTING Hip Dysplasia and Bonitation Results Available for both parents 01/01/09 - Kennel A 05/01/09 - Kennel B 04/02/09 - Kennel C Hip Dysplasia Results Available for both parents 16/01/09 - Kennel A 17/02/09 - Kennel B Hip Dysplasia and/or Bonitation Results Available for one parent ONLY on wolfdog.org 15/01/09 - Kennel A No Test Results Available on Wolfdog.org (Maybe available upon request from breeder) 03/01/09 - Kennel A |
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Will the unserious breeder do a X-ray and be good breeders ? Or will it be like today, the breed will get more unhealthy fore every day ? Regards / Mikael |
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Healthy breeding over time, I think, relies on a system of 3 elements: 1. Breeders breeding for ethical reasons - not to make money 2. Buyers making educated and informed decisions - and not supporting sales of potentially unhealthy litters 3. Clubs making sanctions against registration of litters from parents with unknown HD results One website, or even poor reputations don't necessarily change the way people breed...for people like you or I - who do try to act in the best interests of the breed, it is equally important to know "what else" is out there - by allowing those litters with unknown results on here also - for better or worse - it promotes awareness, and the passage of knowledge. By including an easy link to articles on HD and bonitation, hopefully potential buyers will take a few moments to read and understand what they are looking at, and what they should be looking for... And it is my goal - one day - to have bonitations in America!;-) All of the very best! |
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Mikael, are you saying that you want improve the breed by being hard ??? :shocked I'm an old woman and may assure you that one cannot improve anything, nor stimulate cooperation among people by being hard on them. Besides, WD is not a CSV parliament and have neither legislative power nor Margo & Przemek have breeding police at their disposal :lol::rock_3 Any breeder may take his toys and go to play elswhere any time....8) In my opinion it would much more reasonable and effective to praise good breeders, show what practice/ behaviour makes them good... publicly in a visible place display the information, just like Marcy suggests... so that others would feel compelled to catch up with the high standards... 8) I'm out of the discussion now, it's getting too abstract for me. :lol: :hand |
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Look at the top of this thread, what we really do vote about !!! that is hard, maby to hard... Therefore I support Massimos proposal, because it is hard but still not to hard ;-) Best regards / Mikael |
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And in Sweden I think we will have bonitations about the year 2025 :lol: We will go to Germany or Poland I think :rock_3 Best regards / Mikael |
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Here are the 2 cents of the 2nd old woman: If an interested person is able to think, read, ask ... it´s absolutely okay how it is. If not I would prefer Vaiva´s suggestion. |
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I think the idea of Vaiva is very good!:) Because then you can give short info for all the simple interested people! Every month I have a lot of visitors who are interested in the breed and who wants more info. (and of course not all of them are right persons for a CsW (in my eyes!) and most of the time they realise this when I am telling more about the speciality's of this breed;-)) But you can't imagine who less people (in west Europe) even don't know what is a Bonitation! And even not everybody knows how important official HD results are ... (a lot of people did believe breeders who were telling: CsW is a healthy breed and I don't need to make x-rays, because HD is not a problem in my lines :evil:) So I think when we want to change anything, we also have to give a lot of info to unknown interested people! And only colours want help in this way…. |
I voted NO. We should know everything.
I think the better idea is that one of Vaiva. I don't agree with colour, group and so on...wd should not "judge" a litter :at least for people "green" will be a nicer litter than "yellow" , but how be sure of this ? For example a stud hd-A but with high dysplasic brother make a litter : is this litter "good" (green) or not ? Or a bonitation code of a parodistic bonitation can assure that good (green) dog is SO good ? |
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Susana's remark makes sense. Green colour would suggest that potential breeders could safely purchase pups from that litter, but of course this wouldn't necessarily be the case if the HD result(s) were bad. 8) |
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