Long Coat - Genetic Problem?
 

You should know what you are saying, and obviously you don't know much about breed situation in Italy : sons of Miky and Induk are dog with many qualities (nice eyes, wolfish head) but with serious genetics faults (too long hair, shyness or lethargic character, long body format), just look at some nice examples :

http://www.lastnavarre.it/immagini/e...5/pelosone.jpg

http://www.lastnavarre.it/immagini/e.../pelosone2.jpg

http://www.amicodellupo.it/galleria/...ettera_d_9.jpg
photo property of www.amicodellupo.it

http://www.amicodellupo.it/galleria/...ettera_d_7.jpg
photo property of www.amicodellupo.it

No, It's very easy : If I say the truth I'm right ! You can discuss my opinion, but I'm right.
But it is not this case : one day the mother of litter "S" is Vicky Pdl, other day is an unknown "Alaska" !
And this experiment isn't done by a simple visionary owner, but from the most important "csw power seller" of Italy, member of Council of italian Breed Club.

Fizban(Andreas) is'nt a politic or a dreamer, is a simple owner, and -as many other owners, breeders and breed lovers in Italy - he understood a simple thing, very difficult to refute :
THE MUTARA EXPERIMENT IS CONTINUING IN ITALY !

No, the father of him (Dyk Verny)the father attacked his owner and was returned to the breeder. So is son Lion Passo del Lupo attacked is owner and was returned to the breeder.
The breeder make this dog bonitation : after bonitation ("good") this dog attacked and seriously wounded his conductor!!!

After that, Lion Passo del Lupo was used by breeder for mating with so called "Alaska" :roll:

Last Navarre thanks for the pics. I guess there are 3 different dogs shown. Of course one is Induk. Sure there are a few with long coat. But you can count it on one hand! Comparing with the numbers of puppies coming out of the breeder. Shy or lethartic? That is what I said, it is very important to socialize puppies from their early days on. Having lot of dogs and litters that will not work.

Last Navarre even so I am not a friend of german breeder Eichhorn from my point of view it was good that he tryed to mate Induk with his Amy Zlata Platz. A friend of mine was with im in italy and he told me his impressions of the italian dogs , because they visited others more. And I now the puppies from Induk and Upstream, they are really good ones. And please explain me why sons and daughters of Miky X Fendy are winning lots of shows? And please tell me why people pay lots of more money for puppies from this combination?

I wrote it already, breeding is not a state thing. So everyone can breed like he wants under condition of standard. So if there is a majority who wants to bring in a wolf or a wolf-mix where is the problem? An Hanka says it right, if the majority wants another way, you have to change club governement.

The biting situation. I can say nothing to it only that maybe it was the wrong owner for the dog. Everyone involved in csw knows that they are heavier than ordinary dog. But the csw in italy are much more further than in germany. They are like dogs. Sorry to say. They have less wolfblood and are further away from wolf. You have to be consequent and strong to lead a csw. Otherwise it can cause problems. In germany there are for my feeling in comparison to other dogbreeds lots of csw who change the owner between 5 month and 2 year.

Christian

Fortunately not. Induk is much better (I like him, i don't like his character).
They are some brother and sons.
There are many of these, I own other photos but are not mine and I can't show them (the owners don't want to).

Ok, there are nice and good dogs from this bloddline, with nice heads and so on, but please, you can't take Miky & Induk as an example of the italian breding...they are average dogs with many faults.

From my point of viewthis was not so good: they have in their own house a much better and correct csw...

I friend of mine got one of these puppies. I think they are too young to see if they are good dogs or not.

Hype, marketing, choose what you want. In fact there is no reason to pay more for the same thing or worse!
After attending to dog shows some years (and with some success) I really understand I can't see which is good dog or bad dog considering his shows success, especially in Italy, where politics count much more than dogs.

The majority DON'T KNOW anything about this experiment! We are interested to make it public, so the people can know what they are buying.
Again, I'm not against wolf-hybrid, but against keeping all top secret, all hidden.

And for the Club, I' don't know how it is in other country, but here is nearly impossible.

Maybe or maybe not; but this dog attacked 2 different people in two different situations.

Hello Susanna,

although this is off topic it seems reasonable to give my opinion on your assumption why we are not using Farouk anymore.
It should be far too unidimensional for a breeder to think in terms like for example "not like or like".
By the way, where do you have your assumption from?
So let's come back to facts. We have 17 puppies after Farouk in Germany, that's enough for the moment. I don't want a stud-dog bottleneck population. Besides that there are 47 puppies after Last Navarre, 8 after Big Wakan and 4 after Like. That makes all in all 76 puppies after stud dogs with the same parents....
Don't you think that's enough in both of the countries?
I for myself came to the conclusion that this is enough.
Believe me, it's much easier and cheaper to take my own stud dog instead of travelling to Florence or Slovakia.
Coming to the x-ray results of Farouk's offspring, 7 out of 17 dogs are officially evaluated. Although 6 are HD-A and one is unfortunately HD-D, I want at least 3/4 of his offspring x-rayed.
This is only my humble opinion.
Sorry for my off topic statement, but I felt obliged to clarify Susanna's assumption why we don't use Farouk anymore.
Before I forget it, Farouk is a wonderful dog and has produced some beautiful puppies.

Ciao,

Michael

Cia Susanna,

maybe they don´t like Farouk, I don´t know. I only know that Farouk should be a good working dog, as Ina wrote shortly and they like more the slovakian ones which are not so in behaviour like gsd. Farouk is kind of "nervous" like gsd = means looking for work all the time.

I now Last Navarre only from pics your homepage, but I noticed him already years ago. Farouk I get to know 3 1/2 ago but only for a few hours in the house of Eichhorns. Nice dog. As I know they are using him now more for filming TV and Movies. I think Last Navarre knows this.

Christian

Although I am not a real friend of Michael, I can confirm it, that he makes very nice puppies. And of course this is a good look of all from my point of view to travel around to look for other nice male dogs although they have a good one - and good one for the "working line" - at home.

christian

Hello Michael, I read this :

I thought that Christian knows something more than the data on WD database to be so sure...but clearly not :stupid

Of course! But if I pay for a stud and I pay for the travelling, the stud SHOULD be better than the one that I own!
(By the way there are about 140 sons of Micky/Induk travelling on earth, and much more coming soon)

I totally agree...looking at the photos we always thought as Farouk as the "Handsome Brother" of our Navarino :D
We hope to see sooner or later Farouk mated with your beautiful Amy... :wink:

Monika is right. Long hair don't make dogs or owners ordinary life more complicate, like HD, shyness, agressivity (especially agressivity) and many other illness does.
Is of course problem, but i believe Monika ment that is not that kind of problem like serious illnesses are. If you have a dog with missing teeth, long hair, low bite faulse,dark eyes etc. You can still live normal life with that dog. you dont need vet or medicines every day. and you dont have to be careful with other dogs/people that your dog can attack.. :(

-Suski

Yes, it can be such problem... Take a look on the "long hair problem"....

Long hair are typical "fault" which CzWs inheritated from German Shepherd Dogs.... Examples shown by Navvare are prove that long haired dogs are present by CzWs and some breeder were able to make selection on such characteristics...

But long hair ARE also a health problem. Why?

Short hair gene is dominate and the dog can carry the gene for long hair. Long hair gene is recessive. In other words: two long haired dogs can only have long haired puppies, while short haired dogs can have short hair or long haired puppies.

What it means? When you mate 2 CzWs there is ALWAYS small probability that some of the puppies will be longhaired. But when you mate 2 long haired CzWs you can be 100% sure the puppies will be also longhaired....
So if we will not take it into consideration and will not try to eliminate this faults we can come into the situation that long hair will become a serious genetic problem... Expecially if it is true that the most common italian lines are "carriers".

Long hair has nothing to do with typical wolfish coat which is long on the neck, back and tail, but short on the rest of the body while by longhaired dogs there is the same long coat on the whole body (see photos).
Long haired dogs do not shed - they have "nice" coat also in summer. And by Wolfdogs you can read in the breed standard:
"Winter and summer coat differ greatly."
It is the reason why one of the Czech judges gave on the club dog show "very good" to one italian dog because of "coat untypical - not fitting to the weather conditions".

But long coat is also a health problem - CzWs should be "resistant to weather conditions". But only the with typical coat. Long haired dogs will become serious problems during hot weather - you can forget to run with them long distances because of the danger they will overheat... CzWs with long coat are handicapped dogs in comparition to typical CzWs...

just a short notice on "Long Hair".
it is true and verified that MikyxFendy have produced some long haired dogs and also some Sons of Induk have produced them.
This doesn't prove that neither mikyxfendy or induk are EXAMPLE of BAD italian breeding.
It DOESN'T mean either that these dogs are NOT example of Excellent quality.
I also know sons of "MxF" and "I" that have many admirers all around and have impressed for their beauty and calm/gentle character.

If a couple make 20 puppies and 3 have long hair, it doesn't mean I wouln't buy a puppy from them.
I have seen much worst with HD results.
A son coming from a litter with high percentage of HD has reproduced (i remember cases both in Italy and Czech Rep.) and nobody cried to scandal (well I actually did a couple of times... :wink: )
I now do not know the result of their sons but i strongly doubt that if they also have bad HD we would know it today... or it will be published on your DB... :(
at least you can recognize and visually judge long hair defect.
If all offspring from a dog had this defect then I agree totally it should not be used.

massimo

Massimo it doesn't correct. I have Ian PDL and your coat is not "Wolf coat". This is a bad characteristic for some Miky/Fendy puppies....
matteo

Where this long coat comes from? (i don't mean gsd)
does any dogs from CZ or Slovakia had ever long coat?
Why it came out from Italian dogs so? Anybody have idea?

i never heard long coat in saarloosees, which is made from wolf and gsd as well.

-Suski

"CzWs with long coat are handicapped dogs in comparition to typical CzWs..."

Margo; as you are breeder, if you had long coat puppy, do you pay back something to owner, or sell puppy cheaper?
(like long hair gsd is cheaper than normal)

Does these Italian puppies sold cheaper, cause faulse coat?

and is next what we can waite for white csv? :lol:
there is white gsd;s and in saarloos is some white ones too.

I think there is some more healthy problems with Csv, (than HD/OD)
but very less talking about it. I heard epilepsy, pancreas defect etc. but nobody talks.

-Suski

hi

realy good

n fact one question what is the % as on long hair with ne typical csw can make typicale hair or long hair ??

all people know as cheaperd german have on his genetic some long hair and what choose , what the judgewill decided ?? for the exposition the most important is the caractere not shy or agressvity.

many question , who can answer in all sincerity ??

Some words about long hair.

Margo start be a little bit demagogic, like is typical for Pavel, sorry….

Long hair is exterier problem. No health!!

Long hair isn´t letal factor like for example ( bloomerle factor, some brown collors..)

We can polemize about the efficiency but not about health!

Many GSD with long hair working like police or army dogs, still. And many very good working breeds have long hair. For examle colies – border colies, australien shepherd, scots kolie. Many dogs with long hair have very strong temperament and they are excelent for agility, flyball…etc… CSW can envy him his temperament and his working genes.
In Czech rep. is new breed „ Chodský pes“ who was made and still is breeding from long haired GSD…not only from this, but this isn´t important. But hair of these dogs is long and his temperemant strong and his behaviour really excellent.

I remeber Agar Reolup. His hair is really long, too and dense and when Agar was with as first time on summercamp many a little bit stupid people call him „ collie „ !
He had sometimes parting on the back, because hair was too long….

When we will compare for example Agar Reolup and Amber Wolf z Peronowki – they looking like 2 breeds, for many people. Two different types.
For me no problem – variability inside breed!
I was first person who covered by Agar Reolup…But any puppies have or had his hair! We wanted it, but any. Mothers genes are important, too…..

Really long hair at some italien dogs isn´t big problem for me. Is only per mile of long haired CSWs in population. I not will make the hunt on hags „ !

Is more major problems in our population.


I promis you, this is last "story" from me to this discussion I don´t have time and some disccssions are really lost time.

Sorry,
Monika

How does this opinion comply with the BREED STANDARD? I alawys thought that breeders should aim towards breeding dogs most typical for the breed according to the set and registered standard!!
Was I mistaken? :shock: :shock: :shock:

No problem if you feel comfortable that way. It's your choice to discuss or not.

But I would like to add my two cents to the discussion. I agree that the length of coat does have influence on working abilities. We should not compare briards or collies with CzWs which should be able to run for 100km at once. The breeds you mentioned are mostly guarding or herding dogs and none of the mentioned breeds did undergo such extreme endurance tests as CzWs. And even then there is a division of working and show types in for example border collies. Working ones have short coat. Another example are German Shepherds: the longhaired GSD are being disqualified for specific reason - there are tons of articles where you can read why longhaired GSDs are worser workers. I would like to see chodsky pes running for 100km with similar results as typical CzWs.

I'm not talking about CzW being naked breed :) I want to say that we should keep moderation in everything. Longer coat looks nice, such dogs usually have higher chances to win on shows. But there is a border when the longer coat becomes untypical for this breed. The breed standard says "in body shape, movement, coat texture, colour of coat and mask, similar to the wolf.". When I look at some CzWs will longer coat as Agar Reolup or shorter as Amber I see still a coat similar to wolf but when I see the dogs in the photos then there is no wolf but collies or long-haired GSDs. We should divide the coat into shorter CzW coar, longer CzW coat and long-haired colie like coat. And only the last one is untypical (the same as naked CzWs ;) ). By the way: I saw Agar Reolup a few times and his coat has nothing common with the dogs in the photos.

However at the same time I am ready to agree that the long hair is not the biggest problem in our breed. Much bigger problem are too heavy, unhealthy (very often with HD problems) dogs. But we should not forget about one problem because of another. Breeders should pay attention to all aspects and not breed only looking at long coat.because they can forget about other things.

I know I'm also demagic. After all I know demagogic Pavel and demagogic Margo ;)

hi

i'm agree long hear isn't any problem as working , thgis is ok

but the standard

cf:

COAT
MAKE UP OF COAT: Straight, close. Winter and summer coat differ greatly. In winter an immense undercoat together with the topcoat, forms a thick coat all over the body. It is necessary for the hair to cover the belly, the inside of the upper thigh, the scrotum, the inner part of the ears and the area between the toes. Well coated neck.
COLOUR: Yellowish-gray to silver-gray with a characteristic light mask. Light hair also on the underside of the neck and the forechest. Dark gray colour with mask is permissible.

and in default=> Stand -off and untypical coat. but said the standard about that ??? nthing realy all is about all people think !

many dog with long hair working .....that's the truth

what would be decided about that is it autorized or forbidedden??

how translate that with the standard ?? because te start working must be the standard.

what would decided the official person in charge for the authorities about CSV ??

i think the most important think is long hair ok ... but under hair it is important or not ?

for GSD with long hair there is less important under hair => less possibility to resist about time so cold

:wink: as good reflexion :wink:

Hi,

I must admit that I do not dislike the dogs with longer hair. But I think you have to keep in mind that it is 'dangerous' to breed with the 'long-hair' lines, because it is (like Margo said) a recessive gene. Before you know it, the 'long-hair-gene' is everywhere in the population! I think, as a breeder, you have to be very carefull when you choose a combination of dogs to breed with. The chances that you'll breed puppies with long hair, even when this is not your intention, will become higher and higher if we keep using the lines that carry the 'long-hair-gene' as it is used now. I must admit that I like Miky and Induk, and I like the exterior of the Italian lines, but please, be carefull. They are used very much in the breeding program of the Italian breeders and their sons and daughters are used very often for breeding to. Dogs of those Italian lines come to France and other European countries... they are used very much here (when for example a male is imported, he is used by many breeders. Probably because they think like 'fresh blood' or 'blood of good, Italian bloodlines with good results'). So the 'long-hair-gene', which is invisible, starts to spread over the whole population. And then, maybe in 10 years, allmost every litter will caunt one or two (maybe more!) puppies with long hair! I think that many people (even breeders) do not know exactly how this process of bringing a recessive gene into the population works. Margo apparently does know how fast this goes and she understands how dangerous this can be for the breed. We do not have very much different bloodlines (all Csv are practically brothers and sisters), so we have to be very carefull with the blood we have... When we will SEE the problem, it is to late. And then we can't fix it anymore. And then we can not say: we don't use those lines anymore (or only in combination with dogs who are 100% short-hair), because then it will be to late. Please, don't let it come this far. Why not search a solution NOW?
So I agree with Margo that this isn't 'just a small difference in exterior - nothing to worry about'. Once the gene for long hair is spread over the population, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to 'remove' it again...

Greetings,

Liesbeth

Something about longhair..
I own longhair white shepherd and that dog lives arcticarea.
In wintertime temperature can be -40. That dog living whit huskyes and her coat it weatherproof and easy to clean.
Snow and dirty don´t get stuck in coat. Coat most be harsh.
If you use two long haired puppies can be both long or short haired.
And if you use two shorthaired puppies can be both long or shor hair.
If you have short haired dog that can be longhaired as genotype. :wink:

Standard like wolf? Last weekend I was together with 5 wolves. 1 3 year old Carapatian had coat like longhair csw. One wolf 2 year old son of ural - russian - wolf had even more coat.

And what about italian people who go to shows, I know it from the Briards these people make their dogs really nice they wash them before show, they brush them, they comb them and tehy use hairdryers to blow them dry and then they look like collie. But if they were out in the rain, coming inside getting dry, they would look like ordinary csw.

Long hair dogs problems with heat? Of course not, my briard is going on every heat outside like csw. He has no more and no less problems. And Briads are able to run 100 km a day. Briads working on sheeps are doing this easy.

Working dog lines like border collie and briards with shorter coat? Sure, because they are going through everything like mud, water, trees bushes and so on. That is why their coat is shorter. And there is no time to brush and comb them everyday. The show dogs of these breeds are washed, blow dry with hair dryer and combed andbrushed. That is why they have much more longer coat. I know it because my Briard has parents with long couat really long coat but he is in the middle, because he is a working dog runing through fields, woods and so on.

So please keep on earth. It all has a reason why it so.

Christian

Chiedo cortesemente a Massimo o Susanna e Gialluca di tradurre data la mia scarsa dimestichezza con L'inglese:
"Il pelo lungo è abbinato ad una scarsa produzione di sottopelo e + lungo il pelo e meno sottopelo viene prodotto , rendendo il cane meno adatto ai rigidi inverni e afose estate.
Non c'è nulla di scientifico nel affermare che il pelo lungo è abbinato al carattere + o meno buono,le uniche ricerche fatte su carattere /pelo sono sul colore dove alcuni ricercatori hanno provato che il carattere della docilita' e abbinato al pelo nocciola .

Do you mean one coat like at this dog of the photo who appear in this topic?
If yes, I think, you have see a hybrid, not a pure wolf, a pure wolf will never have one coat like this ( son of miky), nor european wolf, nor north american wolf.
Another thing, they have a huge difference betwen the summer coat and the winter coat, this difference seems not happen with some long haired wolfdogs.

He's asking someone to translate, so (someone has to pay my translator bill ;) ):

I have a question to pose to the forum's so called experts:
it seems the long coat is connected to some genetic reason.
I ask those of you reading if they have any other experience with really long coats.
I saw personally Agar Reolup and some of the long haired dogs we are speaking about and forgive me monika but to my eyes there is nothing in common, Agar's fur is really dense but these ones are long, so long they make the fluff in the ears.
I was wondering if anyone knows any other dog with such fur and see if on the pedigree we can find something in common.
Miky has made many litters but the only ones (to my experience of course) with long fur come from Fendy.
There must be a genetic reason coming from this.
maybe it's not from miky but from Fendy or from a combination of the two.
this Site should NOT be used just to critisize and attack each other continuously (as unfortunately is being done...) but to help us KNOW BETTER and maybe IMPROVE our breed.
Can anybody give me some info about past or present dogs with very long fur??
I think it's a very interesting genetic issue.
massimo

Yes, Massimo, I can. Maybe I should not, because the father of the puppies is from my kennel, but I believe the reason of "longhair" on these dogs is the strong inbreeding, that was done by the breeder. Unfortunatelly, she made TWO !! litters with strong inbreeding (first time she said it was accident, second time she said she liked the long-haired dogs..). No use of me, Jesus or even Sona Bognarova talking to her..
Anyways, here are some long-haired dogs from the first litter:

See here:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Vya...es_de_lEst.jpg
dogs card in WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d6299.html

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Van...es_de_lEst.jpg
dogs card in WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d6297.html

and second litter
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ath...es_de_lEst.jpg
dogs card in WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d7061.html

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ant...es_de_lEst.jpg
dogs card in WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d7058.html

When you will look through all the pups from the same litters, you will see that only two or three from the litter came out with long hair, the others seem to be normal. Also with different female there are apparently no long haired pups in the litter.

I believe though, that the chance for long hair must come somewhere from the line of Krivoklatsky Atos. I had once at home as a foster dog (before we found him new home) male Eros Krivoklatsky Atos, who had very dense and rather long coat -
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/d...sky_Atos/4.jpg
It is nothing when you compare it to the photos above, but as Liesbeth mentioned, maybe if you put two dogs together (as in the case of strong inbreeding) it might bring out really long haired pups. I find it rather scary.

Some more scary dogs, this time Italian.

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Dru...o_del_Lupo.jpg
card of the dog on WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7098

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Fen...o_del_Lupo.jpg
card of the dog on WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/8014

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Fio...o_del_Lupo.jpg
card of the dog on WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/8016

Thanks Mirka!
Nice that you are such a responsible and honest breeder that you share this info :D

I think a lot of breeders would not give this info when the father of these puppy’s was coming from their kennel (or would blame the mother of the puppy’s for this)

For the wellbeing of the breed we all can learn of breeders like you :D

Well, I blame the breeder. :roll: I´ve breed nice and healthy pups, and nobody in Cira´s family, as far as I knew, was long-haired dog. Neither in the family of Jerry Lee z Molu Es.

Also the father of these ugly long-haired dogs gives normal pups with different female. His brothers give normal pups too. So it is really a matter of inbreeding, that brought this out.

Nobody in his right mind would do such strong inbreeding, especially not twice :roll: And especially not after seeing the results.. grr!

Simple Massimo not F x M, bearers of the recessivo gene of the long coat, much simple one .

Thanks Andre

I have see fotos of some dogs were the fater is Jerry Lee Z Molu Es that show long hair.
In the photo Ciro not seems have a short coat, and have already make long haired dogs.
Bora have some offsprings with normal coat with others male, I can say that she pass the darker color, but not long coat .

The inbreeding was made in Bora, but who have strong genetic for long coat is Ciro and Jerry lee, Elza have Ciro, Ares have Jerry lee, so, the two dogs have genes for long coat, the litter have born with long coat.
If not deceif-me, the breeder have say-me that others offsprings from Ares with others females have show long coat in the males, but not in females, too as have show very strong bones, independant of the female.

I agree with Liesbeth, that in time the long hair can become a huge problem in the breed

But I agree also with Monika, on this moment long hair is an exterior problem. And there are also more major health problems in this breed. :(

In the passed I was involved in another breed where everybody was very worried about the colours and fur condition. Many years later , most of the dogs did have very good colours and good fur, but…. huge health problems did appear all over in the breed..

So don’t only focus on the long hair in the CsW breed!!

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/HIndiana_Arimminum.jpg
Armminum H'Indiana

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ron_shot_z_Molu_es.jpg
Ron Shot Z Molu Es

the gene of the long coat is recessevo, because it is expressed not only must be carried from the 2 parents from one (FENOTIPO=genotipo).

Sure the long coat is not great problem + of the race but can' to avoid itself. To mistake is human to perseverare is diabolic

??????????

That's right, long coat isn't one big problem, is recesive and can be controled easy, but the problem will start if someone add to select long coated dogs, that's will start to make the breed lost his original caracterist, will change the original standard, in one little breed as the CzW is, with few blood lines, the problem can be turn really big, now is only few dogs that need to be used with carefull in the reproduction because of th elong coat, but if the number of long coated dogs, with gene for long coat up too much, the problem will be maded.
Have some more important questions, but why not talk about this one time?
I imagine that have some people who have and breed long coat dogs because find more beautifull, is a personal taste, can be too that prefer long coated dogs because it call more attention in show than one normal coated dog, but not know that this is a problem for the standard, and futurelly can be a problem for the breed. :wink:

Hello,

I must admit that I'm new in the world of wolfdogs, but I'm very interested in the breed and especially in the genetics of dogs. I'm a student and I learn a lot about everything that has to do with genetics of humans and animals. I don't know everything (far from that), but I find the subject interesting. It is really not so, that it is easy to make sure that you don't breed puppies with long hair. It is not because it is a recessive gene, that it is not dangerous. (Recessive means that a puppy has to receive one gene for long hair from his mother and one gene for long hair from his father => than the pup will have long hair. When he gets only one gene for long hair, the pup will have a normal coat, but he carries the gene for long hair now, and he can give it to one of his own offsprings. Normal coat is dominant over long hair. For the people who didn't understand the word 'recessive' that is used a few times.).
I noticed a time ago that there were few wolfdogs with longer hair, and I started to check the bloodlines. I also found the litter of Cira and Jerry Lee suspicious, because most of the pups have (for so far you can see it on photos!) a nice coat. not long, but full and -I can't explain this in English :mrgreen: - So I started to check the lines behind those dogs to. But I had to stop with it, because there's something I cannot explain... I think that there must be another factor working together with the gene of long hair, that makes that a pup has the really fluffy coat (really long hair, with no good undercoat => so not good for the weather etc.) That must be the reason why you only get (in this line) the really fluffy coats when you have strong inbreeding. Because of the inbreeding, you make sure that the gene for long hair is given to the pups AND the other genes that are necesary to make the gene for long hair work. But we I think we can conclude that Cira and Jerry Lee are carriers of the gene for long hair, but not (both) of the genes that make the long hair work. (Difficult to explain in English). But maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to make a list of the lines that have given long hair. Maybe we can make even a list of the dogs who are carriers of the long-hair gene. We certainly don't have to exclude these dogs from breeding, but when we do this, we can make sure that we don't make 'dangerous' combinations. But frankly, I think that almost 70% of all wolfdogs is carrier of the gene for long hair. But that's not a huge problem, as long as you don't have strong inbreeding (bigger chance that the combination of genes that makes long hair, is given to the offsprings). Maybe I can ask a Prof to think about the subject. Maybe he knows how this works exactly.

Another thing I wanted to say... Does someone know if they used german shephards with longer coat or carriers of long hair? Or does it come from the wolf? I know the breed since one year, so I don't know very much about it. I only found photos of a wolves and shephards with normal coat that have been used, but the database is not complete, so... Does someone knows more about it?

Maybe we can discuss other (major) (health) issues also...
Maybe we must try to make an arrangement with breeders of all countries and work 'together'.
It's nobody's fault that the gene of long hair is somewhere in the breed!

Greetings,

Liesbeth

in nature don't exist a wolf with that mantle.

the long hair is a recessivo gene in the german shepherd maybe the German shepherd whom they have used if they carried it behind without that it was looked at in the phenotype.

Can you explain me, what are you talking about? Who is "Ciro"??

In case you mean by "Ciro" my Cira Krivoklatsky Atos, could you please show me, which long-haired dogs she ever made? I´d be interested to know, cause I as owner of Cira should know about them. :roll: For your info, Cira had only five puppies in her life and none of them had ever long coat.

Regarding Cira having long coat, that is just ridiculous. (If that "Ciro" is my Cira). You´ve never seen my dog and you are making statements only from photos. You can ask Massimo, Mijke or Liesbeth, Monika or Hanka for their opinion about Cira´s long coat, they all have seen her "live" many times. :roll:


Again, which "Ciro" you are talking about? There is no "Ciro" in pedigree of Elza Krivoklatsky Atos.

In case you mean by "Ciro" again my female Cira Krivoklatsky Atos, she has nothing to do with Elza, only they have the same mother (different father).

What makes you think, that Cira (if you mean my Cira) has strong genetic for long coat? You have never seen the dog, never seen her offsprings, parents or any other related dogs (or any CS wolfdog alive, for that matter). Neither you did genetic tests, so all that you say here, is just guessing and not matter of facts.

You spoke with the breeder yourself? Cause I do not have such information. And as far as I can say, all puppies of Art Vlci sen with different females than Elza Krivoklatsky Atos have normal coats.

Amazingly enough, all offsprings of Arok Vlci sen have completely normal coats, so I agree with what Liesbeth says, is that you need two or more factors (and two dogs with them) to get long coat and probably strong inbreeding for that matter.

The Ciro that I mean is Ciro Brenovka Stopa CS, he is the father of Elza Krivoklatsky atos.
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Cir...vska_stopa.jpg

He is too the father of the dog that you use as exemple for long hair CzW Eros Krovoklatsky atos.

Yes, I have talk with she about this in the Skype, she say that the females have a normal coat, but the males have long coat, and that this not have happen only in the litter with Elza, but in others too ( few but happen).

Arawn Les plaines de l'est
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ara...es_de_lEst.jpg


I agree with Liesbeth too, the cross betwen Elza and Art can be used as exemple, but who have cause the long hair wasn't the inbreeding in Bora Mabosa, but the gene for long hair that Art have comes from Jerry lee Z molu Es, and the same gene that Elza have comes from Ciro Brenovka Stopa CS.

Genetic is a surprise box, Art can pass the gene of strong bones and the long coat, his brother can be that not, or, only his brither have luck to not be matted with one female that have too the gen for long coat, because this still not have born a long coated pupie from he. :wink:

For have no more doubt's in red is the two dogs who I say that probably have long coat genes, ingreen the inbreeding made.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1...reedingvl8.jpg

Yes, is a inbreeding, and isn't good for the breed, principally if we talk about one breed with few blood line as the CzW, for us this will be a inbreeding of course, but for other breeders of breeds more popular and with more line, principally for Am.Pit bull breeders, that's will be not more than a strong linebreeding. :roll: for me, I consider this a inbreeding, but I not find this strong.

Let's talk about real strong inbreedings that already happen in this breed.

In green is the inbreeding, in blue lines that happen and I believe, the breeder nor have idea about this.
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7...absurdoyx6.jpg
For breeds like Labrador this inbreeding is normal to happen, probably the breeder who made this have no idea about the problem that is inbreedings in the CzW breed.

Other Strong inbreeding

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4...urdotopyj9.jpg
This one real strong inbreeding, who too breeders of more popular breeds fear to do.

I remember that sometime I saw in planed litters one inbreeding seems to this last ... :roll:

Ops sorry for the big off-topic. :mrgreen:

All sickness and genetic prolems not come inbreeding. Sometimes nature makes mistakes also.

I dont like popular sire breeding and its not good to make so many litters one male or female.

Or if litter have somethig problems we most tell all problems.
Not make repeat mating in this combination!

I respect that kind breeder how can tell all good and bad things from their owndogs.
So many breeders have "kennelblindness" they don´t see anything bad in their dogs.

Everyone knows that every dogs is not for breeding.
We can read what kind combination has made and often can see many litters is inbreeded.

Inbreeding is not problem IF you know what you are doing.

But if you only make puppies (read money) its very big problem.

Outcross is not possible so little genetig population. We have lots of dogs but genetically they are few dogs.

We all have so many things to learn. We can know lot of things but there is allways somebody who know more.

Satu

that isn't a long coat!!!!!!!!!!

please look the differences between the jerry lee line e miki's line!!

jerry lee and his sons DON'T have long hair!!!! he has a folto hair.

the hair is long when the hair(borra) exceeds of several centimeters regarding the underhair(giarra).
in this dog the hair is longer than 12-15 cm!! not 10 cm

Nebulosa
I suppose you are mistaken by photos and because not seeing dogs in real life.
The examples you quoted do not seem "to my eyes" long coat as the subject of this thread.
On the contrary the example shown by mirka seems that but much more, the looks/colour remind me so much of a Belgian shephard)
There are some cases of "open fur" and "curly fur" that make you think of long fur but it's not the same thing.

Yes, I said that this:

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/d...sky_Atos/4.jpg

is rather dense and long coat for CSW, considering the average coat we can see in CR. However, it is absolutely not a real LONG COAT in a way, that you can see on some of the Italian and French dogs.

Also please realise, that Eros Krivoklatsky Atos, same as Ciro Brevnovska stopa, were judged and bonitated by judges - specialists on the breed and their coat was not found long, neither different or in any way special.

It is absolutely normal, that in winter (and the shot of Eros K.Atos was made in winter) our dogs in get very thick coat. Males have especially thick fur around neck, the fur there is also longer. That is what you see on the photo of Ciro Brevnovska stopa (which was taken also in winter).

The dogs with real long coat, such as the examples of Italian and French dogs, stay long-haired all year round, just as German shepherds do. And their coat is very different to what you are trying to see on Ciro Brevnovska stopa.

Nebulosa you cannot judge dogs and their characteristics only from the photos.

I've been taught that speaking of german shepherd you can have:

- normal stock hair coated dogs (normal length)
- long stock hair coated dogs (long hairs, but not a "fault")
- long coated dogs (very long hair, as in the above discussion (few or missing undercoat, "fluffy" ears, etc), "fault")

Photos can make me mistake because I not see the dog movement, but I'm not blind and I can see coat problems in dogs by fotos, some breeders uses fotos for valuate better htys dogs, some problems we cannot see in live in the dogs, but they appear at fotos as some problems we cannot see by fotos, but only in live.

Let's see if photos can make me mistake too in the coat.
One exemple of Curly coat.
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Rep...keho_dvora.jpg
Rep Z krotkovskeho dvora.
He comes from one strong inbreeding, so, the Curly coat is recessive, the inbreedings show more recessives genes, I can say without problems that Omar Z krotkovskeho dvora carring this problems in his genetic, he have curly coat but not show this, but some of his pupies have a perfect coat, so, that's happen because curly coat is a recessive gene and will appear when we mate two dogs that carring this gene.
For me he have a normal size coat, I have one very good idea about the coat size because of the collar that he uses in the neck, neck if the part that the coat is more long.

aah, yes, I can say that in this photo isn't winter, because in the deep we can see one person ( one woman?) with light clothes.



No, I not trying to see the coat in Ciro, but you can see by his ofsprings that he have the gene for long coat, as Jerry lee have ( I never mean he that Jerry lee (the dog) have long coat, but I say that he have genes for this and that is possible to see in his offsprings as I have show).
How you can see this, he have made dogs with more longer coat than the normal, that's why they have open coat, not extremly but his coat isn't close as have to be a " normal" coat , because this I can see the undercoat too if is few ( and too by fotos).
In one breed that the long coat isn't normal, the long coat will not appear of one hour to other, but will show a little before appear in one offspring, when we cross two dogs with this recessive gene, the problem was made and will born dogs with more long coat, dogs with only open coat, and too dogs with normal coat.

I know that these dogs have a huge difference in coat betwen summer and winter, that is the correct and is mean in the standard, but the winter coat cannot be used as excuse for one open coat, the coat have at first protect the dog, open coat make the dog lost a bit of this protection, dependant of how is open, the dog will lost more or less.
I not mean that you want to protect nobody, but in this foto and others too I can see a little bit of the Eros undercoat.

That's is a really problem, but this problem not have appear as magic, that was made by bad selected litters, inbreedings in wrong dogs or too for accident made by the lack of knowledge about the genetic of one selected male.
So, we cannot forgoth this hipotesis, in show long coat ever atrack more the judges than the normal coat, so, who garante that these dogs not receive a special tratment for be with all this coat all year? :wink:

Yes, nature and we cannot forgoth bad selection
if the male or the female is good, I not see the problem to spread more the genetic of this dog, but of course not turn it a super-reproductor as we can see with Miky passo del Lupo or Cutt as exemple.

Exactly, if all breeder tel the problems and the good things that happen in his selection, some wrong choices and some problem not will happen, but, is very little the percentage of breeder who do this, the most part have the preference to hide problems.
"Incredible that the problem only happen in the neighbour kennel's" :mrgreen:


If this dog fall inone honest breeder hands, he will be very well used as Pet only, but if fall in the hand of people who want money, they willnever put out of reproduction a bad dog, because is lost money with that.

That's the problem of the inbreeding in this breed, if is made the inbreeding, how will be possible a real outcrossing if all dogs have at least rep.zPS and others dogs in common sometimes in the most far generations?
Inbreeding isn't bad and isn't good if you can control and really open the line again if need sometime as you want, but that's is not really possible in little genetical breeds.
In one breed who already have a little genetic diversity, why down more it with inbreedings? too with the repetance of the same crosses sometime?
Who made it probably isn't well informed about the breed, or the breed for hin no matter.
Outcross is not possible but is possible up the genetic diversity of this breed made ever different crosses with different males as some breeders already do. 8)

Mirka,
To write that long hair in c.s.w result of an inbreeding in not efficient because it's not enough to find the solutions.
It's right Nébulosa have seen photos showing puppies half long haired and long haired, borned on the mating of ART and 3 females.

These 3 femelles are ASTA SOKOLI OKO, WAYTA von den Wächter der Krone,and OSA .Hlas divoèiny

Puppies from WAYTA and OSA have dense, thick fur.



Wayta et Arès



http://chienloupdesplaines.free.fr/Photoss/DSCN2052.jpg

Awinita

http://chienloupdesplaines.free.fr/Photoss/KIF_2299.JPG
Anoki

http://chienloupdesplaines.free.fr/P...2006%20043.jpg


Arawn

Among the puppies borned of ASTA, they were two females long haired ; for this last point, Nébulosa was on a wrong understanding.
Instead of calling doubt about mates [( and about a breeder)], it would be better to ask for the good questions. Let's try to find the génétic cause. And, whe should also be able to talk about the "fente palatine" (cleft palate) or about the "syndrome du chiot nageur" (swimming-puppy ?) ! these diseases are typical of the g.s.d and are known among the c.s.w...
Who is able to disqualify the male or the bitch after one mate and only one litter ? I matted ART with three females, (the last litter from Asta : 3 long haired, again !) and now I hypothesize that ART, may be the conductor of this long-hair gene.


Asta et Arès


http://chienloupdesplaines.free.fr/Photoss/DSCF0961.JPG

http://chienloupdesplaines.free.fr/Photoss/bly.jpg

http://chienloupdesplaines.free.fr/Photoss/IMG_0243.JPG

The puppies borned from Elza Køivoklátský Atos and Zarco de New Flame where all short haird;non of then was long hair or alf long hair!!!!!

CIRO IS NOT PRESENT AMONG ANCESTORS OF ASTA :cheesy:

Nadia

I wrote what I wrote according the informations I had from you. I did not have enough, as I see now. We spoke together only about the litters of Elza and Art, where the long haired puppies occured.

You did not give me (or my husband) any informations about other long-haired puppies born from Art.

Therefore of course I thought, that the long-hair was caused by the strong inbreeding. I´ve never seen such long-haired dogs in my life and definatelly not in CR or Slovakia.

I did not have this information. If it is so, and the only dog common to all the cases of long-hair is Art, then for sure he must be the one who carries the trait for long-hair, even if he himself does not have long hair.

Well, I cannot say that I agree with the inbreeding and I never will. It is no doubts, I am sure of that. However, as you say that is not the point now.
I know nothing about genetics, but perhaps Liesbeth would have an idea?

Btw. can you explain, what is "fente palatine" (cleft palate) or about the "syndrome du chiot nageur" (swimming-puppy ?)
I´ve never heard of such diseases and I would like to know more.


Of course, that after one litter you cannot be sure of anything. However, after third litter.. If it is so, and you believe that Art makes the puppies long-haired, then you probably should stop using him as stud.
It is a pity, because visibly there is nothing wrong with the dog, but the long-haired puppies are definatelly non-standard.

Also none of the long-haired dogs should be used for further breeding, only that way we can avoid spreading the problem further.

...if only others were so honest as you....
our breed would be better in a couple of years!!

Agree.. Chapeau bas :klatsch

Palatine division ( that's normally comes with harelip)
In the Swimming puppy syndrome the breastbone is introduced bad in to the chest and the puppy have neurological problems for walk, that make he walk as who " swimming", is other ill common in english bulldogues, but they not know nothing about his genetic, only have theory's.
Have cases of Swimming puppy in the CzW already?

Hi Mirka,

It is true that Art carries the gene for long hair, but the females must carry the gene to, in that case. (otherwise there couldn't be puppy's with long hair.

Example (but it isn't as simple as this):
Gene for NORMAL hair is dominant (we use a big letter for it: H)
Gene for LONG hair is recessive (small letter: h)
(I use the letter h of 'hair'. You can use other letters to...)

Art has genotype Hh and the females he has had puppies with also. Then we can make combinations of genes given to the puppies:
Art can give his 'bad' gene (h) to the pup or his normal gene (H) and the female does that also.

H h
H HH Hh

h Hh hh

1/4 of the puppies from the litter will have (theoretically!) genotype HH, so perfectly normal coat. 2/4 will carry the gene for long hair, but will also have a normal coat, because H is dominant over h. 1/4 will have long hair (genotype hh).

If it would be so that only Art carries the gene for long hair (Hh) and the females not (HH), long-haired puppies are impossible:

H H
H HH HH

h Hh Hh

All the puppies of this litter would have normal coat, but 2/4 carries the gene for long hair (and can pass it on to his/her offsprings).

=> All this is true if the gene for long hair is just a recessive gene.

But it possible that there are 'modifying genes' who have an effect on the gene that causes long hair. A modifying gene can stop the gene for long hair from functioning well. It's the same as with the mask of wolfdogs. You have dogs with are very good mask and dogs without a mask. But they all have the same genotype that says: you will have a mask! But modifying genes have an effect on the functioning of that gene. So sometimes it makes the gene work better and sometimes it can almost stop the gene from functioning (Blackmouth).

According me (but who am I?? :mrgreen: ), the gene for long hair is also influenced by modifying genes. So when a dog gets the gene from one of his parents => no problem. We a pup gets 2 genes for long hair from it's parents => problem; long hair. But how long the hair is, is influenced by modifying genes. Sometimes the modifying genes will have the effect that the hair just looks a bit wealthier (thick, nice fur; maybe like the 2 examples gives from a litter of Art => can be caused by gene of long hair too, but modified in a way that it doesn't look like long hair). I'm just thinking out loud, I'm nothing saying that all this is true! I'm just searching an explanation (like of you do), and I'm trying to use the concepts I know...

I'm sure it works that way with the mask, but I don't know if this is working for the coat to... I will try to search more information about this, but I haven't got much time these days.

Greetings,

Liesbeth

Using no more sires who made long haired puppies, it's like hiding our face in the sand, as the ostrich does.
That means it would be necessary to mate ASTA with others dogs, to know if long hair appears once more, and do the same concerning ART with others females. All of this to compare the genetic and, PERHAPS, find a respons.
!!!
But, only two couples ? That's impossible !
We, breeders, are now face to face with real problems among the c.s.w ; we have to try to resolve them. And that means to be clear concerning our puppie's malformations. I've tried many times to discuss about that with others french breeders, but...they NEVER have been concerned in any disease or anything bad !!! Great, isnt't ? My bag was just empty of critics about my kennel....
:
Now, to close the subject about the mating ART/ELZA :

.
When I first met the c.s.w at Mirka's kennel, I really felt in love seeing Asterix eden Severu. I made a promess to myself : once, i'll have a dog like he.
The first litter was an accident (silent heat) ; puppies were great, but none of them looked as Asterix.
As for the second litter, I decided to keep alle the puppies, and I got the dog I wanted : Amarok.
So, if I've to be runned down because of my so strong wish to have the dog I wanted, I'm ready. Since two years now, Amarok give me more love and friendship than others do (I own 10 dogs).
Elza was matted twice again with ART. 8 puppies were born the first time, then 11. All of them have been euthanasied and Elza sterilized.
.
Elza is now sterilized. Let's talk about money : the price for a csw, in France, is about 1100 euros. So, it's easy to understand the lack of money for a kennel.
My purpose is not to "create" long-haired and black-masked csw, but I just wanted my dreams dog.
Long haired csw are no more shy or agressive, and they have no more diseases than short haired csw. I've kept contacts with the owners of my 5 puppies and I allways ask about their growing.
I'll try to find you pictures of a long haired csw with his summer coat.
About the "fente palatine", it would be better to begin an other topic.


Greetings
Nadia

Ok – this is just a quick overview on the genetics and expression of fur length.

The length of fur in all animals (and of hair in humans, incidentally) is controlled by the hair cycle. (Have to love the original names of these things)

Basically each growing fur strand goes through three phases –

Anagen – This is where the fur is actually growing – ie the strands are lengthening.
Catagen – This is where the fur is in senescence – no longer growing but not shedding either, it’s actually an intermediate phase.
Telogen – This is where the old fur is actually shed.

It probably makes more sense when you actually look at a picture like this one:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...ycle_basic.png

Ok – so far so good?

This means in fact that the length of each individual fur strand is determined by two and only two factors:

The rate of growth of the fur
The duration of the Anagen phase (the more time fur spends growing without falling off, the longer the fur will be)

Now for some time there has been this theory going round that a certain gene (FGF5 short for fibroblast growth factor 5 for those of you who like to keep track of these things) that controls the length of the anagen phase. The dominant version of the gene results in a short anagen phase, and therefore in short fur. The recessive version of the gene results in a long anagen phase and therefore long fur.

There is a nice little diagram which explains this one too:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...Hair_Cycle.png
Image from Kingston K.L. Mak et al.

This theory was proven in canines 2006 by D.J.E Housley and P.J Venta which showed that for a number of breeds the short haired version of the dog would have the dominant version of FGF5 and the long haired version of the dog would have the recessive version of FGF5. This was the case in German Shepherds, Corgies, Collies (Border, Smooth haired, Long haired varieties), etc.

Great right? That explains everything!

Well actually it doesn’t. For a number of reasons:

First – the actual hair growth cycle is far more complex than all that. FGF5 works by prolonging the time in Anaphase, but what about factors that affect the actual growth rate of the fur? For instance it is known that there are (undefined) genetic factors in cats which nullify the presumed recessive effect FGF5 – ie if you cross two long haired cats you may get a short haired one (this happens in Persians now and then) This would never happen if you believe in a single determinist factor for fur length – and yet it happens.

So the story is more complicated – here are a few things which are obvious to any wolfdog owner and which really complicate the story in two ways, both by looking at the effect of the coat (as opposed to individual fur strands) and because of the possibility of having other factors come into play:

There are at least two different kinds of fur on a wolfdog – underfur and guard fur. Their length is obviously different so there must be other factor(s) that control the length of the underfur relative to the guard fur.

The winter coat and the summer coats are markedly different – I have not seen any comparative studies on the fur lengths of the coats, but you will probably find that particularly the underfur will have a different length in the winter coat and in the summer coat.

The fur is simply not of equal length all over the body of the dog. Think about it – fur around and within the ears is normally much shorter than that around the rest of the animal. Males are known to have “manes” of longer fur around the collar/neck area (though this effect is also due in part to denser underfur in this area), also the fur on the tail seems to be longer that that on the body (though again – this would need more rigorous study, and is based on casual observation of wolfdogs. I don’t go around pulling out fur from different parts of my girls to check how long they actually are)

It is impossible to explain all of this with the basic “recessive long fur, dominant short fur” model of dog fur. Also it is interesting to note just how short the short fur model is – for instance Dalmatians are said to be normally carriers of the short fur version of FGF5 and I think everyone will agree that if a wolfdog had fur as short as a Dalmatian, there would certainly be something wrong.

So – is there a dominant/recessive gene that affects fur length? Sure, but it only affects the length, it does not determine it. Other factors can be equally important in determining fur length. The genetics of this story are far more complex than simply talking about Mendelean genetics.

One final note on the genetics, there are two ways of determining whether a dog is a carrier or not of a long fur recessive gene – one is breeding with a mate that is known to be a carrier of the recessive gene (not a great idea – but you would expect to get roughly ¼ of the pups longhaired) and the other is to simply test for the variant gene. (for instance this lab offers the test – as well as a few other interesting ones, no affiliation in case you were wondering) Simple no? (Interestingly you can test for quite a few things these days)

As for the wolfdogs themselves and what the implications of this are –

First, don’t judge by photos – it is nearly impossible. If you are going to do so, examine areas that normally would not have long fur. For instance the photo displayed above of Ciro does not in any way show a long coat – if it did the fur around his ears would be abnormally long. It is just the thick winter fur of a male that is made even more prominent because the shot highlights the mane.

Second – looking for the genetic cause for long fur the first thing to look for is FGF5 – there are already commercial tests which will tell you if a dog is a carrier of the “long hair” or the “short hair” version of the FGF5 gene. The solution is there to be used.

Third – and perhaps more tricky – should long fur be selected against, for or neutral? From my point of view the answer is simple – long fur is a fault and should be selected against for a number of reasons:

1) It clearly does not conform with the standard
2) It is likely to impair the working ability of the dog, as the dog is likely to be less resistant to weather conditions (longer fur means that the fur is more likely to get tangled, and paradoxically excessively long guard fur is usually indicative of poor underfur – resulting in worse insulation which can be a problem in warmer, colder and wetter weather conditions)
3) It is very easy to select against. All you need to do is look at a dog (not a photo) to see whether a dog has excessively long fur or not. Of course you can bicker over it, but while it may be difficult to decide whether a given dog has normal or longish fur, excessively long fur is really easy to see (just look at the tufts of fur around the ears, they tend to be easy to spot). If you cannot select against such obvious faults, then the ability to select against more subtle (and possibly more serious faults) is likely to be called in question, it can and will damage your reputation as a breeder. So don’t do it!

Anyhow hope that made it clear. For those of you who are really interested in the genetics of this story I recommend the following references:

Kingston K. L. Mak and Siu Yuen Chan (2003)
Epidermal Growth Factor as a Biologic switch in Hair Growth Cycle
Journal of Biological Chemistry; - Vol 278 No 28 pp 26120-26126.

D. J. E. Housley, P. J. Venta (2006)
The long and the short of it: evidence that FGF5 is a major determinant of canine 'hair'-itability
Animal Genetics 37 (4), 309–315.

Well, concerning the hair length of wolves; I've been doing some measuring. The summer fur of the wild Arctic wolf i've measured (upper fur, guard hair), is along the spine area longer; around 13/14 cm., the tailhair is about 17 cm, hair on the muzzle is very short and on top of the head a little longer. The hair on the legs is pretty short too. The underfur is very wooly and about half as long as the upper fur and very dense. The hair is not fluffy-silky like a collies.

It seems to me that in wolves it's a matter of different species, like there's the Mexican wolf, Carpathian wolf, Arctic wolf. The fur of the Mexican wolf is shorter than the fur of the Arctic wolf. Next to that, it has to do with the climate and of course the genes each wolf has inherited individually, just like some people can have longer hair than others. Probably the same goes for thickness of fur.

Also look at this winter coat of the Arctic Wolf: When you look at some pictures in the book of Mech you can see the winterfur is longer than 15 cm (Sorry, somehow i cannot send these photos to this site).

Chinook

But as interesing only Carpatianian wolf, not Arctic or Mexican,
Wolfdog have Carpatian wolf blood and we mas see this wolf hair, not others wolfs.

You might think so, but it is clear, that there is certain problem and it would not hurt anyone, to stop using the sire for a while and search solutions. It is not advisable anyways, to mate the same dog again and again, it shrinks the gene pool of the population in the area (or even country).


Yes. I find it perfectly normal, especially for Asta. Is there a problem with that? If we agree, that long-haired CSW´s are non-standard then it is logical to search a way to produce normal haired puppies.

Well, here we are talking and we are definatelly concerned. But from talking eventually we have to come to "doing", unless there will be no change.

If you like the dog, it´s ok. But for the others who do not know Asterix Eden Severu, I must say that the dog is heavy build, has strong dysplasia and heavy head. By no means it is ideal CSW or a dog with wolfish look or movement. His bonitation code says it too: A70,5 D5 F2 I8 Of P5 And I say this despite the fact that Asterix´s owner is my good friend.

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ast...den_severu.jpg

Good, I am eager to see that.

I still think, despite the genetic debates here, that if Art carries the gene for long hair, and so does Asta, it is not wise to mate them together again.
If I was owner of both of those dogs, I´d stop breeding Art and I´d search male from different blood for Asta, perhaps of Slovak origin. And I would not consider myself ostrich at all.

Thank you for you explanations, but i think your conclusions is the best : easy and clever, you wrote down in good english my thoughts :D

But "you shouldn't speak if you don't have produced almost 100 puppies ! "
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I think there should be also mentioned one thing. There is a different quality of the coat too. The Czechoslovakian wolfdog should have a hard coat which is similar to goat coat and it shouldn't be soft. There is even a fault on bonitation card for dogs with too soft hair but most of the judges do not pay much attention to it. This is very important when we have a dog with long hair because this characteristics is much more visible. This would be interesting if the collie-like dogs still have a typical hard coat like normal CzWs - I bet they haven't.

Some updates in coat lenght area, two more genes identified:

Science. 2009 Oct 2;326(5949):150-3. Epub 2009 Aug 27.
Coat variation in the domestic dog is governed by variants in three genes.

Cadieu E, Neff MW, Quignon P, Walsh K, Chase K, Parker HG, Vonholdt BM, Rhue A, Boyko A, Byers A, Wong A, Mosher DS, Elkahloun AG, Spady TC, André C, Lark KG, Cargill M, Bustamante CD, Wayne RK, Ostrander EA.

National Human Genome Research Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA.
Abstract

Coat color and type are essential characteristics of domestic dog breeds. Although the genetic basis of coat color has been well characterized, relatively little is known about the genes influencing coat growth pattern, length, and curl. We performed genome-wide association studies of more than 1000 dogs from 80 domestic breeds to identify genes associated with canine fur phenotypes. Taking advantage of both inter- and intrabreed variability, we identified distinct mutations in three genes, RSPO2, FGF5, and KRT71 (encoding R-spondin-2, fibroblast growth factor-5, and keratin-71, respectively), that together account for most coat phenotypes in purebred dogs in the United States. Thus, an array of varied and seemingly complex phenotypes can be reduced to the combinatorial effects of only a few genes.

I did not notice that there is such a thread. But the difference between pure wolves and wolfdogs is that the wolves have "long" coat - in wintertime - and the wolfdogs in the same time do not have. So the "miky lin" is from that point a well done breed because she is in line with wolves.

Christian

:lol:

Please, show me at least ONE wolf with this coat.

http://www.lastnavarre.it/immagini/e...5/pelosone.jpg

And sorry, if your wolfdogs have the same coat lenght in the winter, so they're really outstandard, when even mine wolfdogs (wich not pass for a strong winter) have a huge change in the coat lenght and density.

Nebulosa, he looks like veeery wolfish collie :rock_3

Monika, "Long hair is exterier problem" are your words. Thank you for these genes from Russia...

Unfortunately common, some "very experient experts who breed for love" loves to send the "best dogs" to countries where the breed is only starting, principaly when the people interested does not know much about wolfdogs and can be mistaken easly with the small talk of "this is the best pup of the best and most interesting litter at orign country!", I think I listened this history repeatedly at least 2 times with the same "breeder". :evil:

Oh, Nebulosa, I thought somebody must be responsible for the breed's future at us. Second CsW litter in Russia is going to be from X-Wild Planet z Molu Es and Brian z Reviru Vlku (first litter was from Rose PDL and someone Baron of unclear origin). These dogs were sent as pair for breeding :roll: I don't know, may be some people from Czech Republic still hate Russia like USSR... but to do it in clear mind... mmm... impossible.

Ah, yes. I'm not jelous. I have 2 males.

Morian, I am very curious about your words but cannot have an opinion without knowing better (i leave others to have an opinion without knowing much...it's typical for them)

X-Wild Planet I think has nothing to do with Induk so, I do not understand your words
...or maybe you refer to some other dog?

Ehm...Paula you are aware that the same small talk could be applied to you right? :oops::oops:
Does the X litter Z Molu es appear to you as a bad litter for some reason?
Or is it just that the breeder is not on you "I like" list and so anything she does is bad?

About long hair, if a Male such as MIKY was a bad male because some of his puppies (a very small percentage) were long haired, then his son INDUK had a higher percentage always with long hair, if you read carefully in this thread it seems ART is a carrier of the "long hair" gene.
ART is son of Cira and Jerry Lee.
Maybe Jerry Lee is carrier of "long hair" gene too...and his brothers AND SISTERS..
It's easy to make a witch hunt, all you have to do is start...it never ends!

Please read once again name of this topic. I thought we speak about Miky. Isn't it?.. Look here please. And here too (if you're interesting why do we all laugh).

I read the whole topic and it also speaks about other lines with long hair, not only Miky. (FYI, I think title is given by MOD and not by original person who posted message, so MOD can put any title he likes)

I was just trying to understand, so you are saying that Monika, breeder of X Wild Planet, sent a "couple" for breeding in Russia, X Wild Planet and Brian z Reviru Vlku?
From what I see no brother of litter Brian has long hair and, I repeat once more, number of sons of Miky with long hair is very very low in percentage, also if you consider the fact that same genetics (mikyxfendy) has been with 7 litters giving 33 puppies (statistically it's one of the highest number of CSW coming from same father and mother of all CSW history, record is Chlouba de Wolf ArimminumxEDGARWOLF) and from what I know only 2 dogs where long haired.
I am no expert but I assume that 2 puppies on a total of 33 from same female and 163 all together doesn't make a stud such a risky animal.
I suppose it is not Miky himself but the combination of his genes with other females with same recessive genes that "could" give longer hair, I don't think it's the worst thing that can happen in the csw world...but surely I'm wrong, I'm not as experienced as others who write in this thread...

Well, procentage and potential possibility are different things, I think.

And. Breeding is not just a way of making $. Breeding is hard work. Every Breeder must eliminate risks of exterier, health and other defects. Is it normal? Yes! But I can't understand some ideas... When genetics, breeding rules etc are not the keynote, then what? Business plan? Or what else?

I'm sorry, I have absolutely zero experience with any of this sort of thing, but I'm reading & curious, so I just wanted a clarification.... isn't percentage just the actual statistic of potential possibility? :confused2

Or maybe is it you mean the actual result doesn't necessarily reflect the genetic probability statistic? Just thought of that now. :)

...as for potential, in that case you should NOT ever breed... all dogs can give something bad "potentially" ;)

I have different view of breeding, I dont want to send the dogs far as I want to preserve their line in my country, so you will never see I trying to sent a dog to outside for get rid off it as these people do.
But... I listened the same talk when I was searching for a dog, and even today when I sent mails as "new owner" I receive the same replie of some breeders.
Looks like the hat had feet perfectly your friend Monika, right? well, sorry I was not talking exactly about her this time. :lol:
About the X litter, I never mentionated it, but if you want my opinion about, I see nothing special in this litter, no interessing blood, mostly not nice dogs with exeption of Xantina, that looks like follow better the standard.
Its nothing personal, even because I never talked with Monika more than by this forum, but I really put in my account the work that the person is doing for the breed before add or took out it of my "list" of " I like":p
If she breed again a nice dog as she already did, a nice litter with interessing blood, I will pop praising it because I will realy get interested, but its not the case at the moment, so, its my hope for the future.

Maybe you should read again whole topic, will see that I, owner of Jezbeth that is daughter of Jolly a SISTER of Jerry lee, had pointed out that Jerry lee is a carrier of long hair as he did puppies with longer hair than the expected.
I have no kennel blindness, realy dont bothers me the possibility of my dog have the genetic of long hair (including, Hero Oskar dor, by Argo z Prizrak karpat probably have it as some of his pups have longer coat) if born a atipical dog with atipical characteristics, I will only give him neuthered for a prepared owner and warn people who wants to breed with the tipical puppies of this litter about the problem, so dont need to born more puppies with this problem again.
But, as I expected it didnt happened and I have pups with very tipical coat, but more adaptated for our crazy climate.
its interesting that at start Monika wrote that coat is not a lethal thing, she is not wrong as its not an lethal gene, but by other side the coat quality for me is very important, as my dogs should be able to be protected of the cold of winter (yes, where I lives the temperature can be negative but its the easy and ridiculous part for a breed wich comes from europe) and the extreme hot of the summer (this year arrived at 45C with much higher termic sensation, terrible, so its what we can say that need a real adaptaton by the dog) , my wolfdogs and their descendents have not problem, but I'm afraid if a dog like the one of the first photo would be able to survive at our summer with such coat.

Where is the witch hunt? Talk that dog Y or X have problems its already witch hunting? So I'm witch hunting miself :lol:
Try to change your mind about it, does not exist perfect dog, does not exist 100% healty line, the only way for we improve the breed is talking openly about the problems, mostly of atipical litters and even problems appeared because the breeder was not warned about the problems the blood he used could pass, who suffer with it in the end are the inoccents, the puppies.
Our biggest problems is exactly the famous "kennel blindness", and this talk of "My dog is perfect/my breeding is perfect and who do not agree with me is witch hunting me" really bothers me.

About the topic name, sorry, it was a very old topic, I nor even seen the name of it now :lol: I will change ;)

Massimo, breeding means selection.

Vicky, I mean only that percentage can be calculated on the basis of past expirience. And potential possibility = future or actual risks which must be eliminated by breeding. Or breeding is just increase of population?

Sorry having excavated this thread :D, I just wanted you know we cannot say "do carry the gene for long hair", we already knew from experiences that this did not work like this, but now we deeper know why.