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-   -   Hungarian HD/ED results (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16483)

admin 12-01-2011 13:15

Hungarian HD/ED results
 
Due to the fact that we receive more and more emails questioning the quality of the Hungarian HD results I decided to check the whole topic once again. I discovered that most of the results that were put into the database are results evaluated by private veterinarians. The Hungarian breeders claim that also such results can be considered as official by their kennel club. But at the same moment we are getting from them more and more "denunciations" about "suspicious" results of dogs from other Hungarian kennels...

Because of it I asked independent sources for true information and I get:
In Hungary there are actually two hip evaluation organizations or registries. The oldest is FDB (Független Diszplázia Bizottság – Independent Dysplasia Committee), the second is MKOE (Magyar Kisállat Ortopédiai Egyesület – Hungarian Small Animal Orthopedic Association).

I will clean up the database and leave there only results of dogs which are officially tested by these registries:
- FDB (http://www.fdb.hu/)
- MKOE (http://www.kisallatortopedia.hu/)
(results evaluated by private veterinarians will be removed).

I hope it will solve the problem and finally clean the mess.

Mikael 12-01-2011 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 350605)
(results evaluated by private veterinarians will be removed).

I hope it will solve the problem and finally clean the mess.

YES !!! I hope to :)

Good Work :thumbs

Best regards / Mikael

Rona 14-01-2011 18:12

I wonder how many Hungarian wolfdogs' HD/ED results will remain in the database after the modification... :)

Mikael 14-01-2011 22:34

Quote:

I wonder how many Hungarian wolfdogs' HD/ED results will remain in the database after the modification... :)
Non :lol: or at least the % of A/A result will bee very much less :p

Best regards / M

Woockie 15-01-2011 17:26

Sorry to interrupt I'm just reading usually but I think for this subject I have to tell my opinion because of it's unfairness.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 350605)
Because of it I asked independent sources for true information and I get:
In Hungary there are actually two hip evaluation organizations or registries. The oldest is FDB (Független Diszplázia Bizottság – Independent Dysplasia Committee), the second is MKOE (Magyar Kisállat Ortopédiai Egyesület – Hungarian Small Animal Orthopedic Association).

I will clean up the database and leave there only results of dogs which are officially tested by these registries:
- FDB (http://www.fdb.hu/)
- MKOE (http://www.kisallatortopedia.hu/)
(results evaluated by private veterinarians will be removed).

Well, the 'independent source'-s information is pretty outdated as you can see on their webpage the FDB has stopped its operation in 2008.. :) As far as I know both the MEOE and FCI accepts those 'private veterinarians' results. So I can't really understand this step of you. Honestly it doesn't really matter for me because I'm only an owner of a wolfdog and won't ever breed them I just love those dogs. But it seems to be really unfair to make this decision ex post facto. I think it would be much better to accept from now (for example 1st february 2011) only the associations results you trust. Noone will pay once more for the test and noone will stress their dogs once more because of someone's unproven suspicion. Or is there any evidence you didn't wrote about?
Quote:

I hope it will solve the problem and finally clean the mess.
I think such a step won't solve anything but will make unfriendliness which won't make any good for the breed we all love.

Woockie
http://www.wolfdog.hu/

jasmine 15-01-2011 17:26

Egészséges Kutyákért Közhasznú Alapítvány
Független Diszplázia Bizottsága
FDB
Az FDB által regisztrált kutyák 1991-2008 A FDB 2008 augusztus 2-tól működését felfüggeszti és előre meg nem határozható ideig szünetelteti.
Indokolás:
A MEOE az FDB 17 éves működése alatt kiadott többezer FDB számot törölte az adatbázisából, illetve azokat HD:0 és HD:1 jelölésekké "konvertálta" át, mely módosítás lehetetlenné teszi a független szakbizottságunk által kiadott minősítések megkülönböztetését minden más úton szerzett diszplázia-eredménytől.
Tenyészadat-gyűjtést a hatályban levő állattenyésztési törvény alapján csak elismert tenyésztő szervezetek végezhetnek, illetve adhatnak rá megbízást. Az FDB vonatkozásában a törvény nem a Rtg.-felvételek bírálatát, hanem az internetes eredménylistánk vezetését tiltja a nem elismert MEOE származási lapjaival rendelkező kutyákról. A diszplázia minősítésekkel - beleértve az FDB-számokkal - való visszaélések visszaszorításában viszont pontosan az eredménylista nyilvánosságának lenne jelentősége.
Az FDB folytatná 17 éves jószolgálati munkáját amennyiben a tenyésztők igazodnak a jogszabályokhoz, vagy ha a jogszabályok módosulnak a tenyésztőkhöz, azaz törvényes lehetőség nyílna diszplázia-minősítések gyűjtésére és közzétételére, továbbá, ha azzal egyidejűleg a származási lapokon az FDB minősítések megkülönböztetők lennének az egyéni állatorvosi diszplázia igazolásoktól, illetve, ha a tenyésztőtársadalom igényt tartana állatorvosi bizottságunk országban egyedülálló és kiemelkedő 17 éves szakmai tapasztalatára, elfogulatlanságára, hitelességére.



Before you wrote something, would better to look after it . Translate the text. Shortly: FDB is not exist from 02.08.2008!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And I'm just wondering how could happen that a private site and their admins want to tell me what kind of rules shell I follow??? I'm just wondering how could this person question about the authentic of the official results???? Results what are accepted our klub, our kennelklub and FCI????????


It is not hurra Mikael....it is shame!!!!!


But as it a private site and lack of objectivity, you could do what you want ! But if you don't mind, as I breed in Hungary , I must follow the hungarian rules....and not yours.




Edit

Mikael 16-01-2011 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 351289)
It is not hurra Mikael....it is shame!!!!!

But as it a private site and lack of objectivity, you could do what you want ! But if you don't mind, as I breed in Hungary , I must follow the hungarian rules....and not yours.

Edit

Sorry, but I only trust Official results ! Not results from private veterinarians...

Do you x-ray all your dogs at the same veterinarian ?
If yes... Way ? Is he good or are the result good ???

Example...

If he give you A/A. You will come back whit your next dog and he will make money... He give you A/A again and you will come back whit ALL your dogs + You recommend him to ALL your puppy buyer and friends... And he will make allot of money.

Do you see the problem and my point :rock_3 ???

Best regards / Mikael

jasmine 16-01-2011 11:19

I don't understand you ? Why do you think that these results are not official. In Hungary some vets have right to make xrays and give certifiations (official). These results are accepted by MEOE (hungarian kennelklub) ,other klubs in all over the world and FCI of course.
No worth to talking about it anymore!

Mikael 16-01-2011 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 351385)
In Hungary some vets have right to make xrays and give certifiations (official).

That is the problem !!!

And to me that is not a official result.

Way ???

1, You might know him or he is a good friend

2, The quality of there education can vary allot (bad or old...)

3, It is more easy to make a false papers, than if the kennel club do the evaluation of the x-ray and put up the result in there database.

4, Or one can just pay for a good result ( Not all contry´s)

Best regards / Mikael

Woockie 16-01-2011 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 351395)
That is the problem !!!
And to me that is not a official result.

Sorry but who are you? Of course in relation of FCI for example.
Quote:

Way ???
1, You might know him or he is a good friend
2, The quality of there education can vary allot (bad or old...)
3, It is more easy to make a false papers, than if the kennel club do the evaluation of the x-ray and put up the result in there database.
4, Or one can just pay for a good result ( Not all contry´s)
Don't make me laugh. With that statement you are saying that all the FCI's and the MEOE's and other clubs operatives are dumb for their job, because they don't know about those points you mentioned. Or else they (all clubs and FCI's etc) are all in good relation to those vets. With all of them. You really think that a vet will pawn his reputation for a few Euros and will fake the tests? Lot's of them are working by the MKOE too. You really think that they will hazard that?
Today I've talking about that with a few people. I've heared that a breeder sent fake result -there's no evidence, because afaik the admin doesn't want to give us those papers to let us to take the official steps to stop that-, but what you "like" is not against one breeder but all of the hungarians. You really think this is the one and only one solution to that problem? You want to penalize all of them because of foggy suspicions? What's with those test which will have the same result which before? Will you pay them?
It's just mud-slinging...

Woockie
http://www.wolfdog.hu/

jmvdwiel 16-01-2011 19:33

at least the hungarian kennelclub thinks this is OK, because al the HD results are also on the pedigree so this is the way they do it in hungary.

Everybody is licensed to think otherwise, but a single breeder cannot change the policy of a kennelclub.

Mikael 16-01-2011 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 350605)
Due to the fact that we receive more and more emails questioning the quality of the Hungarian HD results I decided to check the whole topic once again. I discovered that most of the results that were put into the database are results evaluated by private veterinarians.

(results evaluated by private veterinarians will be removed).

To jmvdwiel and Woockie...

I look´s like it is not only me that thinks that results from private veterinarians are not to be considered official :rock_3

It might be OK in Hungary, but this is the rest of the world ;)

Best regards / Mikael

jasmine 17-01-2011 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 351395)
That is the problem !!!

And to me that is not a official result.


Mikael....in this case I'm sorry to say, but doesn't matter what are you thinking about. As I wrote : in Hungary are some vets, who has got right to make official xrays and certifications. These results are accepted by Hungarian kennelklub, other klubs all over the world and FCI!
All are higher organizations than you...........

To your other points: NO comment..........


Edit

jasmine 17-01-2011 09:58

hej Woockie,

Please write it also that the hungarian breeder you mensioned is NOT ME !!!!!!
I send my certifications together with xrays to the database!

Edit

Woockie 17-01-2011 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 351470)
It might be OK in Hungary, but this is the rest of the world ;)

For your information FCI is the rest of the world not you. You seem to be a small dustmote like me. The Admin didn't answer yet to any of our posing. Hopefully he/she's persuadable with arguments and will change his/her mind. I'm waiting the Admins attitude. I hope the Admin will punish only the gulity.

Woockie
http://www.wolfdog.hu/

Woockie 17-01-2011 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 351507)
Please write it also that the hungarian breeder you mensioned is NOT ME !!!!!!
I send my certifications together with xrays to the database!

Yup, that breeder who I wrote about is really not Edit but I don't want to mention any concrete names because the lack of any evidence in my hands.

Woockie
http://www.wolfdog.hu/

admin 17-01-2011 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woockie (Bericht 351288)
As far as I know both the MEOE and FCI accepts those 'private veterinarians' results. So I can't really understand this step of you. Honestly it doesn't really matter for me because I'm only an owner of a wolfdog and won't ever breed them I just love those dogs. But it seems to be really unfair to make this decision ex post facto. I think it would be much better to accept from now (for example 1st february 2011) only the associations results you trust. Noone will pay once more for the test and noone will stress their dogs once more because of someone's unproven suspicion. Or is there any evidence you didn't wrote about?

In the fact all Hungarian results we get last time come from MKOE. At the moment only two breeders still make "private" x-rays - all other Hungarian owners and breeders check their dogs by MKOE. And exactly the Hungarian owners complained about it at most saying that some breeders in their country have their "own" vets who evaluate the x-rays of their dogs VERY MILD.

Also people from abroad complained exactly about the "private" x-rays - some of them "verified" them by their own official vets in their countries and the new results they get were worser or much worser than the "private" Hungarian result. At the same time NOBODY questioned the results given by MKOE.

And in Hungary the differences are also visible - threre were two dogs checked by the "private-official" vets and they get HD-A and HD-B. The dogs were checked again by MKOE and their results were: HD-C and HD-D.
I hope you see the problem.

I think the changes will be not bad for Hungarian owners and breeders. On the contrary - it will stop questioning the Hungarian results and stories that you can not take Hungarian results seriously.

jasmine 17-01-2011 14:06

As I know only two results were send from MKOE...it is funy , that you are talking breederS...as it is only one breeder, who has at that moment two young females (both from me) ...and she send the xrays to MKOE,because the vet in her region hasn't got right to give official certification!!!!

The problem you wrote is about ONE CASE with one female......this is the case what Woockie mensioned . So it is not about the validity of certifications!!!!!!

"I think the changes will be not bad for Hungarian owners and breeders. On the contrary - it will stop questioning the Hungarian results and stories that you can not take Hungarian results seriously."

Will you pay us the chages to check again the dogs?

So at last but not least : Our klub will you send the list of veterinars we could use.Many of them are the members of MKOE, like my vet...and he is everything but not mild......

And my question : what is about those czeh and german dogs which has got polish results (as they got worth result in their own country)

Woockie 17-01-2011 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 351567)
In the fact all Hungarian results we get last time come from MKOE. At the moment only two breeders still make "private" x-rays - all other Hungarian owners and breeders check their dogs by MKOE. And exactly the Hungarian owners complained about it at most saying that some breeders in their country have their "own" vets who evaluate the x-rays of their dogs VERY MILD.

Also people from abroad complained exactly about the "private" x-rays - some of them "verified" them by their own official vets in their countries and the new results they get were worser or much worser than the "private" Hungarian result. At the same time NOBODY questioned the results given by MKOE.

And in Hungary the differences are also visible - threre were two dogs checked by the "private-official" vets and they get HD-A and HD-B. The dogs were checked again by MKOE and their results were: HD-C and HD-D.
I hope you see the problem.

I think the changes will be not bad for Hungarian owners and breeders. On the contrary - it will stop questioning the Hungarian results and stories that you can not take Hungarian results seriously.

That's much more correct answer than any of Mikaels, so thanks.
Can you send me the specific information about that story? Of course if this is not public then in private to wolfdog (at) wolfdog (dot) hu. The dogs which were checked again and was not the same which before, the results who you don't trust etcetc. I'd like to solve this problem without any "collateral damage". We (as the team of wolfdog.hu, but hopefully I can talk in the name of most hungarian czw owners) don't want to be in bad relation neither to wolfdog.org nor to all the breeders who are correct.
A technical solution to this problem: what about if you don't remove those results but on the page you show them like: "HD: A (not by accepted vet)" or something like this. It won't really hurt anyone, but all the visitors can see that and make their own decision to trust the result or not. Important that the text in parenthesis should be not offensive to the breeders because there's no evidence they did anything wrong. It would be easy to implement, only one column in the db and a simple if(...){...} to the display layer of the code.

Norky 17-01-2011 15:37

Hd results
 
Dear Admin!

I would like to make clear the problem! I am the breeder, who had got the problem with hd result of my dog which was bought a hungarian kennel....more precisely not the results but the behaviour of the breeder who was not ready to admit his responsibility in this situation. BUT THIS KENNEL IS NOT THE KENNEL CRYING WOLF!
In the last year I bought 3 dogs from kennel Crying Wolf...the breeder gave quaraty for the dogs and I always give me advices when I have problems. Two of them were checked, both have perfect Hd...the last is 3 month old now.
I use MKOE, because in my region there are no vet who could give official certification......so I have two choice...travel more than 100km or make xray at my vet and send the xray to the commity. For me the last is the easier and cheapest way.
So now I don't understant why do you want to gibbet those breeder who has nothing to do with my problem. (as at that moment just her kennel...Crying Wolf is in the database)

Best Regards

Aniko Molnar
vom Hause Norky kennel


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