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-   -   Breeding rules and methods (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16090)

jasmine 22-11-2010 15:39

Breeding rules and methods
 
Paul,

as I wrote what I do is wrong...what others do it is ok and no problem......
so it is no problem : http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1346 or make "P" litter from Jolly is no problem, because it is not comming from me................
or always copy the others and use the males I used before is no problem....but talk about bad things about my dogs is normal.....or use a 14 month old female for breeding is normal when she did.......
hmmmm strange measurement !!!!!!!

And I must ask you Margo, if I always make bad litters why do you use always the same males for breeding?????

Hero z Rofa
Borko Kollarov Dvor
I used Koro you used Kondor.......
I used Carr M.B just Mona was empty
Hitt Spod Dumbiera
Juri Zlata Palz
wanted to use Argo Tajomy Tulak....than Alf T.T and his son........
very creative ideas!!!!!!


Edit

z Peronówki 22-11-2010 16:04

Breeding rules and methods
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339233)
And I must ask you Margo, if I always make bad litters why do you use always the same males for breeding?????

Edith, do you mean it serious????
Do you know that the whole CzW breed base on lines? :lol: If you would be a Czech breeder than you would know that Czech Club do not even ALLOW to mix the lines... Also the Slovak club advice to keep line breeding.
Breeding of dogs do not base on accidental matings... You are breeding CzW for a long time - long enought to should know that there exist a group of breeders from different countries working together on different lines to safe and protect genetic diversity by CzW. And since years I'm working with them.

I do not use THE SAME males - I NEVER repeated a mating (like you do). I do not base on my private males (like you do) to make the costs as low as possible - I always prefer to use the most interesting even if I have to travel several houndreds or tausends kilometer. And one you can be sure - NONE of my litters is made "by mistake". There is always very well-thought-out reson why I make the specific litter.

Yes, there are lines which I will never use because the dogs there are much more "problematic" ("ill") that other.
And there are also lines which I like more - after several years of breeding I know that some lines are not only interesting guarantee better character and/or look and/or health...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339233)
Hero z Rofa
Borko Kollarov Dvor
I used Koro you used Kondor.......
I used Carr M.B just Mona was empty
Hitt Spod Dumbiera
Juri Zlata Palz
wanted to use Argo Tajomy Tulak....than Alf T.T and his son........
very creative ideas!!!!!!
Edit

The question is who copy who.... :D I never took a look on your plans - I didn't even knew that you have any... But in such case it seems I have to publish a list of dogs which I plan to use in the future (some are not even born but only planned :D) in order not to be accused that I copy your ideas... :D

And you list is the best example - for long time I had a problem because I had only one female (later two) - so many males which I planned were wating years till I had the idea to use them...

Examples:
Hero z Rofa. In the fact I planned to use Tambury but after speaking with some breeders I realized I have to change my plans because females covered by him were ampty. But I wanted to use at least his sons. I found one in 2002 in Bystra and took first photos of him. Excactly - it was Hero. I spoke with his owner and I decided to use him. 2 years BEFORE your litter.
Why my puppies are born first 2005. It is easy - I always start with older males where there is bigger "danger" that they will pass away. So 2003 I used Borko - not "thanks to you" but "despite of you".. ;) 2004 some breeders (also my good freind) planned to use Hero so I went to Gaius Dor (no puppies were born). 2005 finally Jolly was covered by him. Over 3 years after I decided to use him.

Carr Maly bysterec - dear Edith, I cheered Lubos allready when he decided to use Azor. When many breeders told he must be out of his mind to make this mating. I cheered Carr when he was born - and on his first shows - when he always was loosing with very low quality males which had serious problems to move. I was "for him" also when other breeders blamed him for many invented problems. Every time I heard how "ugly guy" he is I answered "Oh, yes, but I will use him..." (funny that the biggest critics have not litters of Carr :D). Carr was "my" dog from the time when Lubos decided to make this litter... And Juri - ask Daiva: he was put on the list long time before you made litter.

Hitt - you can ask Milan... :) A long time before your litter Milan was informed to keep this dog for me. I kept contact already with his previous owner - I knew he will be the first "safe" way to use the blood of Cagi without being affraid that the puppies will look like molosses....

Argo - is it not about Argo but about Bux. It was the "sad time" when I had only one female and when I had only one litter a year(it means I had to watch that many precius dogs die without having even one litter - only because other breeders do not want to travel more than 100km or if they travel than only always to the same (pseudo)champions). Bux died short before I had a female for him but I knew I will use his sons. Dino was sold to Holland. I took Dak and... from this time I like offsprings of Bux very much. I made already some litters with his blood and more will be born. And Argo - Argo is typical representant of this "family"...


As you can see I can really write that "all other people copy my ideas" - but I never even though to think about it this way...
I have my own ideas - and my own favourite dogs. Yes, when I think about a dog which has already litters by other breeders I watch the puppies: they show me what the dog "gives" and basing on it I'm choosing for him the best fiting female. Or sometimes, if the health results of his offsprings are bad, I remove the dog. Two times I removed whole lines - I still like the dogs very much (look and character), but I will never use them or any of their offsprings exactly because of heath problems.
If someone "copy" my ideas - I'm ONLY happy. Because first: it confirms my choice. It means other breeders also keep the specific dog for interesting. Second: I choose (in my opinion) dogs which, I think, are precious for our breed. If such dogs will have more litters than only by me - it will make me happy...

jasmine 22-11-2010 16:12

make the cost as low as possible????
I have good quality males why couldn't I used them?
Or to keep a male, grow up, bring show and keep him for 10-12 years is much cheaper than a studfee????

And I don't remember that Gisu or Juri would be in my garden.......

z Peronówki 22-11-2010 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339238)
Are you afraid that you couldn't sale your pups from your comming 4!!!!! (but you are not producer , just a simple family breeder....) litters?????

Jasmine, please do not strike back on such way. I just asked about a question - I didn't knew it would drive you crazy so much. And please do not try to divert the attention from what you have written and what is the topic about.

I'm really not affraid about my puppies as I not need to do. The conditions to get a puppy from us are MUCH more strict - we do not sell puppies to everybody, all puppies are sold with written contract. We do not sell puppies to resellers, to huge kennels where dogs live in cages. But still there are always people who want a puppy from us - it didn't changed since over 10 years.

You write about my 4 litters - what you forgot to write that the dogs by us live in totally different conditions. We do not keep dogs in the cages - they live with us at home. We are 3-people (now 4-people) familly who is crazy about this breed. We work at home so we can dedicate 24 hour a day, 7 days a week to the dogs. ALL puppies are born and grow up at home - not even ONE puppy was ever born outside in a kennel. We have huge house and enough time to give the puppies and the dogs everything they need. Also our dogs are a real familly /make well orgasnized pack/ - all females give birth to the puppies in my room. First every female care for her own puppies, later the whole pack play with them.


I have more dogs than some other dog owners. But I have also not only the help of my family but also some proffesional four-legged puppy sitters... :D

z Peronówki 22-11-2010 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339242)
make the cost as low as possible????
I have good quality males why couldn't I used them????
Or to keep a male, grow up, bring show and keep him for 10-12 years is much cheaper than a studfee????

Which dog you kept so long? :)

And yes - believe me that using foreign studs dogs is much more expensive.
You are using the same male for several females every year but you need to give him food only once. You don't need to pay stud dog fee which is much higher by already one litter than the food for the dog for the whole year. You don't need to travel and pay the gasoline, you don't need to pay accomodation when you spent the time abroad. I have also my stud dogs and I know what I'm writing - using own dogs make the costs MUCH MORE lower...

But there is something else what is much more important than the money - you know that the main rule for responsible breeder of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs is not to repeat the same matings (with the exceptions when the born litter was very small or the puppies "dissapeared"). If you will take a look on the best (most respected) kennels in different countries you will see that none of the breeders repeated his/her litters over and over again even if the puppies were of excellent quality.
The reason is simple: the breed is developing and we need as much genetic diversity as possible. Repeating the litters is simply senseless....

z Peronówki 22-11-2010 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 339357)
It is just a full moon :roll:

Do you think full moon is good explanation for Lupis? :rock_3 Do you think that have men also have PMS...? :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 339322)
So you both Margo and Edit made very good advertisement for your upcoming litters!!! Congratulations. Edit with more wolfy looking (and being?) csw and Margo with raising up in the house.

Do you think raising up puppies at home is an advertising? :lol: That it is something special? Christian, take a look on some books about dogs and some advices about puppy rising. Every book say the same... It is a norm, or should be a norm...
Advertising would be if I would write that we make "early neurological stimulation" of all puppies born by us... Advertising would be... (I will not write more - but believe me - I not even started with a real "advertising"). :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 339322)
But Margo, I did not understand that you took Baron offspring and Belke? All in a row, not far to travel????

Christian, everytime you write something you write words without being informed about pure facts. You base your accusations on your own presumptions... :roll:
I visited the dogs several times. 4 times Juri, 3 times Arab, 2 times Belke and 2 times Drink. Because it was the time when I had a LOOT of work to do I didn't stayed by the dog owners but everytime I had to came back home... The "nearest" dog Drink lives in CZ - 350km from my house. Other dogs live in Germany: Belke 400km, Arab - 600km, the farest (Juri) 700km. Within about 2 weeks I spent every second day traveling to Germany (or Czech Republic) and back only to be able to mate my females with dogs I like and I keep as interesting. Because of it I made about 10.000km - it is not a joke. And you write: "not far to travel"... :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 339322)
4 litters + how many others you did this year?

Easy to check in the database - I do not "hide" any litters. I have nothing to hide... :p I made ONE litter. 4 puppies were born.

jasmine 23-11-2010 09:10

Good Morning ,

I have never started fights, topics , I am the person who are always attected year by year in this "litter time".
I know that the market is getting less, I know that hard to sale the pups....but to always use this "sale technic" is more than disgusting.
On the other part I must tell you, to be on focus is realy amusing me ;-) and I believe there are more person who could see behind the curtain than who believe the bulshits.

Margo,

I'm sorry to say but for me you are not a family breeder. You are also a producer!!!! A family breeder keep max. 3-4 dog not more, you have 10 at least, a family breeder don't make litter from 14 month old female like you did last year, don't make litter from old females like you do this year , don't make several litters year by year like you do and don't live from the dogs like you do!!!!
So I realy don't understand how dare you criticize me !!!!!

About your balabalbalbla to use the same males : I don't put my litter plans not because I haven't got, but because of you!!!! And of course you always have excelent breeding plans, so after WDS you planned 2 litters from Hitt ( just to keep the different lines of course .... ) and after Gisu's succes you made big publicity on your forum about your plan with Gisu's father (do you think I haven't got friends who read and translate me your bulshits you write to your own site or polish forum???????)

And as your all females and males are from Joly ex. Mery Bell, you couldn't use your males just for Mery Bell ( and you have alredy done it ! ) so please don't write me money saving mateings!!!!
I also make/made litters from foreigner males, and YES !!!!! I dare to use my own males as well as (for my oppinion, what is surely not like yours ) they have good bloodline and excelent dogs.

So I realy will make a statistic about the time(s) when my kennel appear in the forum...and of course always in negative way , but I think the result won't be unexpected as it always happens in this period and always when some other "famous" kennels have pups (and maybe problem to sale them)

I'm not perfect, I make mistakes as everybody could do......and though I think I have enough experienses I have never feel that I have to say what is right or wrong, I have never feel that I have to criticize others.
There are a lot of ways...I try to walk on my own way..............

Have a nice day,

Edit

z Peronówki 23-11-2010 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
I'm sorry to say but for me you are not a family breeder. You are also a producer!!!! A family breeder keep max. 3-4 dog not more, you have 10 at least(..)don't make several litters year by year like you do and don't live from the dogs like you do!!!!
So I realy don't understand how dare you criticize me !!!!!

What is a family breeder for you? Person with one female keeping her in the kennel for whole day long, making one litter with a neibour's male from next vilage, keeping the puppies in a pigpen and selling them in wholesale to puppy dealers?
Oh yes Edith - a production can be even a breeder with only one female and one litter a year. And there are many such cases in our breed.

I have one question for you: what is a normal family for you? Two people with one child? Two people with 2 children? And what about a family with 4 children? Is a family with 5 children a PRODUCTION according to you??? And family with 8 children? Is it a children-producing-factory? No, you can not divide family basing on number of children but only basing on the conditions and amount to love and attention the children get from their parents.

Yes, Edith - also the difference between PRODUCER and BREEDER do not base on the number on dogs but on the CONDITIONS how the dogs are living, basing on all the things the breeder can offer to the dogs and the REASON why such person keeps the dogs. The only difference is - if the dogs have normal happy life, or they are just used as "things" for breeding.

Yes, I have more dogs than some other people. I have 10 Wolfdogs - 2 of them are rescue dogs. 1 male is a special case - he will spent the rest of his life by me because he was abused by his owner what cased that sometimes he acts agressiv (in the fact he would be dead for a long time if I would not take him) - it is not possible to find him a new home. I also have 13 years old GSD-mix - also a rescue dog (the owner planned to put her down so I took her - she is with us already for 10 years). But the number of dogs is the only thing which makes my kennel different form other "family breeders". You will be not able to find EVEN ONE other difference - what makes my kennel "less familiar". In some cases it is even easier because puppies can grow up in a pack - they have not only contact with people but also with other FRIENDLY dogs which have huge influence on their future social behaviour.
Yes, I have more dogs. I have also pretty big family where everyone keeps contact with each other. I have also much more friends than "normal" people have... Because so looks MY LIFE.

Yes, you are right. I live from dogs.... But not from BREEDING WOLFDOGS... Please think careful and COUNT... Yes, we own 10 dogs. Do you really think 1-4 litters a year can give enough money for them? For dog food and suplements, veterinary care, their trainig, showing, for meetings and summer camps? Especially than I do not "produce" with my own males but I also have to pay stud dog fees, travels and accomodation. And also the prices of puppies are far different here than in other countries (I'm not a salesman asking different prices from different people basing on their financial status). And additionally we also take part in dog rescue actions and from time to time I also have to provide for such dogs. No, I do not EARN money with Wolfdogs but I SPENT money for Wolfdogs... And I spent a lot...
But dogs ARE my life - I administrate several dog sites, I own the biggest WWW site about dogs in Poland, I write articles for magazines, we make web presentations for breeders, we work for dog food factory preparing receipts for them. So I EARN my money - so I "live from dogs".

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
a family breeder don't make litter from 14 month old female like you did last year, don't make litter from old females like you do this year

You know - it is exactly your problem... There is a database on Wolfdog - there are 100 possiblities to verify what you write and say. But NO... You preffer to tell lies about all other breeders even if your words are pure (as you call it) bullshit.
Who told you about 14 month old female?!?!? :D Or it was your private invention?:lol: First: I WOULD NEVER DO THIS. Second: Poland if not like Hungary. You can not make whateven you want - you have to keep strictly for the rules. For everything you have to ask for permission.
You can not breed 14 month old females! You can cover a female which is at least 18 months old and obtained the breeding rights. Even if you would like to cover her one day earlier you have to ask for special permission. You can make only one litter a year. There is no chance that the kennel club will allow you to make 2 as it is possible is some other countries. You can breed a female only to the age of 8-years (the last litter can be made in the year when the female ends 8 years). There is possiblity to make one more litter (it apply to all "healthy" breeds - and Wolfdogs are considered as long living dogs). To get such permission you have to be a "responsible" breeder (the people in the kennel club must be sure that your dogs are kept in good conditions), you must write request to the breeding comittee and show proofs that the female is healthy and in PERFECT condition and is a valuable breeding bitch - you must show her achievements, achievements of her puppies, health certificates of her and also her puppies. First after the comittee will agree you can make a litter. But only one. More requests are not allowed.
My "old" females are 2-3 years younger than your. And as everybody can see on the photos and in the reality also about 5-7 years younger according their real conditions.
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
About your balabalbalbla to use the same males : I don't put my litter plans not because I haven't got, but because of you!!!!

Edith, you din't even know how interesting your words are... :D They explain a LOT... So many lies and goosips which flow between some people.... :D You really created your own reality - your own world... :D
Beside you are so full of megalomania... :D You really think you are hug of the universe... :D
I never took a look on your breeding plans... In the fact they were not interesting for me... :D All time I treated you as all other breeders - with no negative background. NONE of my decision based on your litters. In many cases I could even tell that YOU "stole" my ideas. I spoke with some breeders/owners about some dogs before you EVER saw them. Sometimes before the dogs were born - some litters born by other breeders are also my idea... The litters were made for bigger plan - there are more such litters in execution. As I wrote: there is nice cooperation between breeders from diffeerent countries - some litters which seem to have no connection are made to be used for making lines in the future. There are plans for several years - should I write you the text "you stile MY idea" every time you use dog from a litter which was planned by us? :D
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
And of course you always have excelent breeding plans, so after WDS you planned 2 litters from Hitt ( just to keep the different lines of course .... )

How many puppies were born? 0. There was not even one litter. Now you have the answer... ;)
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
and after Gisu's succes you made big publicity on your forum about your plan with Gisu's father

Edith, you really make my day... I see you found in Poland your mirror image - a person who has the same problems with megalomania... :D Especially this person should know (and she knows it VERY WELL) that we planned to use Argo before you even knew that Argo exist, many years before Gisu was born. I was interested in this dog already when he was a puppy - no wonder: he was fiting to my plans. For many years he was published on my web site as a stud dog for Garuda - if someone "stole" the idea of other breeder it was YOU and your Polish soul mate.... :D I have no problem if someone else make the same decisions as I - for me it is only a proove that I made a good decision. But the fact is that after you and your Polish friend made this litter and after she took a dog from this litter many people here described it as "theft" made to spite the owner of Garuda... I have no problem with it - I hope Argo will have much more litters.
For me personally additional advertising for Argo was his litter from CZECH Republic. Gisotsu and his brothers do not have the good sides of Argo - high size, good bones, masculine head and active temperament. Yes, I know it is because they are copies of their mother. Anyway I was looking for things which exactly Gisu do not have.
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
(do you think I haven't got friends who read and translate me your bulshits you write to your own site or polish forum???????)

Calm down Edith, you can agree with words I wrote or not. But be careful - your Polish friend has huge problems to keep to the reality and she has the tendency to write lies. Additionally she has problem to understand Polish language. She is well know in PL for the things which she has done. For publishing not existing ED results, for cheating and lies, for her "disappearing" dogs. Really a very "reliable" source of information.... :lol:
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
And as your all females and males are from Joly ex. Mery Bell, you couldn't use your males just for Mery Bell ( and you have alredy done it ! ) so please don't write me money saving mateings!!!!

You see - you have no idea what you are talking about. For many years I had Bolton - most titled dog in Poland (and not only here). He was perfect mate for ALL my females but I didn't used him even one time - he was living by us as my teddy bear. Even if such dogs are described by so called proffesional breeders "parasites" and are given away or put down....
But beside Bolton I had by me much more dogs which I could use. There are SEVERAL males which I rescued, which have puppies by other breeders - which I was able to keep to "produce" low cost puppies. But I decided that money is not important - now the dogs live by loving families in different coutries - not only in Europe.
No - using different males is not compulsion but my own decision basing on the rules for responsible breeding.
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
I also make/made litters from foreigner males, and YES !!!!! I dare to use my own males as well as (for my oppinion, what is surely not like yours ) they have good bloodline and excelent dogs.

Please read twice what I've written. I do not say you can not use your own dogs. I just write that using always the same males for the same females and repeating the same matings especially if the quality of the puppies was low and different problems appeared is not BREEDING but PRODUCTION.
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339413)
So I realy will make a statistic about the time(s) when my kennel appear in the forum...and of course always in negative way , but I think the result won't be unexpected as it always happens in this period and always when some other "famous" kennels have pups (and maybe problem to sale them)

Edith, you are "bitting" a wrong person.... :D I didn't started this topic. I didn't wrote about your kennel - I only wrote the truth: that I also know about Arys litter this year what prooves the words of lupis. Maybe my was were bit coarse but believe me - I was shocked that so know person like you can write such obvious lies in public.
But it seems you really have personal problems with me... Because instead to speak with any other person on this forum you decided to attack me with you seld-invented theories... :D

jasmine 23-11-2010 13:59

ahhh you are perfect, Margo :lol:
But why did you feel that you hade to clean yourself?

Anyway: there are some facts....so you could try to explain yourself..but for me still too much blablabla and nothing behind it!


Edit

PS: ahhh I thought there are more people in Poland not just you and Agnieszka....hmmm maybe I was wrong....

PS2: yees Gisu is a very bad dog !!!
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10954
and his pups are also terrible ! :lol:

z Peronówki 23-11-2010 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339465)
PS2: yees Gisu is a very bad dog !!!
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10954
and his pups are also terrible ! :lol:

No, you don't understand what I wrote. I wrote that he do not have the main characteristics of his father. And not not have what I was looking for...

jasmine 23-11-2010 14:16

yes I know...... his biggest mistake that he is Crying Wolf :lol:

z Peronówki 23-11-2010 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339469)
yes I know...... his biggest mistake that he is Crying Wolf :lol:

Honestly? NO.
You can believe or not but I have no problem with it and with you. Interesting for me are DOGS and not their kennel names. I look on the pedigrees and not on the breeders' names. I evaluate the dogs and not their name.

Argo is hight dog on the maximum size. He has very strong bones and strong skull. He has great eyes, and... and.... There were some more things. Of course he has also very light colour but it is no problem for me because the female has great pigmentation.
Anyway his litter with the female we planned for him in Poland could give very good results. Nice puppies, with good body, movement and structure. Both dogs were very good fiting together.

Gisotsu has different angulation than his father. He do not have strong bones. The head is pretty light, he is of average size. With THIS female he would not give nice puppies, but weak, feminine micro-wolfdogs.

It is why I planned Argo and not his son. Not because of their kennels names but because of this what the dogs could "offer".

wolfin 23-11-2010 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339498)
very typical for what ???????

margo thake a standart cytat - read this and self wort :) diferent are?

hanninadina 23-11-2010 19:19

@Margo, you did not explain, why you used Baron and Arleen offspring, alhtough didn´t you use Baron by yourself two times and Cäsar?

I have only 4 dogs and I have the whole day time, please Margo you explained in some long posts here, that you do work in the whole dog world, not only in breeding and that you have 10 (and Przemek?) dogs? I am sorry, how can it be possible to socialize puppies in a litter when there are some litters at the same time? How can one work or be simply with his dogs when he got so many dogs like you and doing so much work?

Raising up csw pups in the house is in a lot of places not common. And you know it Margo! Not only in eastern part of europe but in italy, france and other countries too.

I do not care, what you do, but people should know it and of course, you are open with it. You and of course Edit too, breed some (not all) very nice dogs. But sorry, nobody can give so many dogs what they need. But of course I know germans have a different sight how one should keep dogs - like family members as if they are human beings ;-).

Christian

Mikael 23-11-2010 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 339590)
But of course I know germans have a different sight how one should keep dogs - like family members as if they are human beings ;-).

Christian

And not just in Germany ;) Sweden to :)

My little baby boy :p >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/en/gallery/pic/55524/

Best regards / Mikael

z Peronówki 23-11-2010 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 339590)
@Margo, you did not explain, why you used Baron and Arleen offspring, alhtough didn´t you use Baron by yourself two times and Cäsar?

HEH? Do you really mean ME? :shock:
I used Baron only one time, Casar only one time. As all other dogs. I also used son of Casar. For daughter of Iran.
Why?
Look in the pedigrees - you will see what we all plan to make... :D

Quote:

I have only 4 dogs and I have the whole day time, please Margo you explained in some long posts here, that you do work in the whole dog world, not only in breeding and that you have 10 (and Przemek?) dogs? I am sorry, how can it be possible to socialize puppies in a litter when there are some litters at the same time? How can one work or be simply with his dogs when he got so many dogs like you and doing so much work?
Easy - all things are bounded... :D When I sit on the computer and work - they sleep. When I make something outside - they are with me. When I go for a walk or by bike I can take them (usually half of them). When I go to the kennel club usually some of them go with me. 2 go inside and we make the litter checks. By obedience lesson I can have 4 of them with me - CzW are not like labradors - 2 hours are too long for them so I change dogs every 30 min ;) I go to dog shows with 6-7 - I show only 4-5: 2 just love to travel with the car. By meetings - almost all are with me....
Dogs are always with me - they have really active life... :)
It is really pretty easy - there is no bigger difference between giving food to 4 dogs or to 10. If you play with one dog or with whole pack. You know what is the main difference - you see it when you pass the doors. With more dogs you have to wait much longer till you can close them.... :D

And socialization of the puppies:
first remember that the size of CzW litters is similar to wolfish litters - they are pretty small with 4-8 puppies. AND I never breed females which give a lot puppies at the same time. I also could not imagine that I have for example 4 litters of borzois with 12-15 puppie each... Usually I have less puppies than my friends breeding kangals who have one litter.

Second: puppies are born usually in the winter when I have no "addional work" to do. Obedience courses end in November, "our shows" are in April and September, there are also no more meetings, shows a.s.o. It means I have A LOT of free time... :)

Third: puppies mean people who are interested in them and such people LOVE to visit "their" pupps. In the puppy time also our friends visit us much more often than usual (all of them are dog lovers). There is time when we have visits almost every day. Can you imagine better socialization?
I have a lot of time for them. I have a lot of dogs which play with them. And there are many people visiting us - puppy buyers but also our neibours have free time in the winter so several times a week there is a pack of children at our home playing with puppies.

Yes, it is a lot of work to do. But believe me - there is really no difference between 1,2,3,4 litters. You make the same 'work'....

Hanka 24-11-2010 07:19

Hi Massimo, I know, your question was not for me, but I must :lol::lol::lol: answer you a little your question:
" that is why breeders with females in CZ look for males outside CZ who are not obliged to follow breeding rules in CZ?? ""
Count how much litters is here and count how much breders used not czech males. I think, about 90% of fathers czech litters are czech males. We use foreigner males only sometimes and only some breeders. (Maybe if males are interest, good (in blood) for some female, we want save some "interest family",.....) It is not so often like you mean.
I do it sometimes too, why not. But for me is a pitty, if males from other countries have not czech bonitation, from judges from country of origin., or czech HD results......
A pitty, bu we can do nothing against it.
But it is not problem to use foreigner males, or yes?

Vaiva 24-11-2010 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339688)
But for me is a pitty, if males from other countries have not czech bonitation, from judges from country of origin., or czech HD results......
A pitty, bu we can do nothing against it.

Hanka, what is it? Sorry, but this is allready insultive. So other countries do not have profesional veterinarians to make a proper HD test??? Also the judges in other countries are totally stupid? Not speaking about bonitations?
First you want all the countries to breed according to Czech breeding plans. Then you say that even HD, made in other country than Czechia is NOT GOOD?

Hanka 24-11-2010 08:08

Yes, I think, exist differents in countries in measuring of HD. And in some countries NOBODY measure X-ray photos, but doctor only look at photo and write result. It is bad, but true.
I can write it because I had seen it by my own eyes.
Don´t take it like isultation of somebody or some countries. I only write it is a pitty. Pitty for breed because we "lies to own pocket" when much of dogs have perfect HD "A" on paper, but reality is a little different....

Vaiva 24-11-2010 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339692)
Yes, I think, exist differents in countries in measuring of HD. And in some countries NOBODY measure X-ray photos, but doctor only look at photo and write result. It is bad, but true.
I can write it because I had seen it by my own eyes.
Don´t take it like isultation of somebody or some countries. I only write it is a pitty. Pitty for breed because we "lies to own pocket" when much of dogs have perfect HD "A" on paper, but reality is a little different....

It might be a pitty for you, but insulting for people from other countries.
So maybe it is worth naming the countries, where you saw HD, done looking not to the hips, but to owner's pocket? Because this is still not fair. Also the show evaluations from some Slovak judges seem to be much more interesting for many people, than ones from Czech judges :roll: And we had the topic about bonitations - maybe no need to start them once more. Still if I had my dog bonitated by Oskar Dora I somehow do not feel I should go for a more "better" one in Czech Respublik.

Hanka 24-11-2010 08:31

I wrote abot HD resuts and about bonitation, I did not write about some shows.
If you look at all countries, nobody does czech bonitation, because it is most difficult and not much dogs can pass it. In all countries you can see "bonitations" or maximally slovak bonitatations, because it is more easy.
But I will not be OT here. If you want, we can continue over emails.
I only reacted on Massimo question.

jasmine 24-11-2010 08:44

Why do you think that no breeding rules in Hungary ???
All of my dogs have hungarian breeding licence, Hd results.

And Pavel : till czeh and slovakian breeders use my dogs for breeding I think I have no reason to be ashamed!


Edit

Massimo : let's enjoy the comedy! :rock_3

michaelundinaeichhorn 24-11-2010 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339696)
I wrote abot HD resuts and about bonitation, I did not write about some shows.
If you look at all countries, nobody does czech bonitation, because it is most difficult and not much dogs can pass it. In all countries you can see "bonitations" or maximally slovak bonitatations, because it is more easy.
But I will not be OT here. If you want, we can continue over emails.
I only reacted on Massimo question.

Well, apart from my totally different opinion concerning Czech and Slovakian bonitations that we surely shall not discuss here, are the Slovakian HD-results from messurement, as well as the German ones (we even messure more points then you as far as I know).
And I am more concerned about the more actual health problems that have been discussed here in other discussions and that are not taken care of till now.
The Slovakian Club did help actively with the research poject, it was discussed on the Club meeting, a lot of members did give blood samples, several members of the Club head did actively help, one breeder with very old dogs does now take the work and brings them to the vet to send samples. Italians gave blood samples, Germans did, Swedish people will help, Dutch people do, Margo promised to take care, Edit asked me to take blood form all of her dogs the next time I will be in this region
The Czech Club member that was there got the papers but till now we got no reaction. That might be my fault cause I didn´t find time to send another mail and there was a language problem with English, but now this is a good oportunity, if the Czech Club is interested you can contact Sona or me or Mijke or Saschia etc. to send you the papers and explanations.

Ina

Hanka 24-11-2010 09:44

Hi Ina, and what you sent there and you have not answer? Write me it, I ask what hapenned when you have not answer or I can help you too.
Yes, I read your topic from yesterdsay, you wait some translation from Sonja. And you sent something similar to czech club too? To what person? Let me know and I will "put" it here.
You can in email.

michaelundinaeichhorn 24-11-2010 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339696)
In all countries you can see "bonitations" or maximally slovak bonitatations, because it is more easy.

Hi Hanka,

why is it easier?
This dog ( and many more...) www.wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d9548.html got a P1 in a Czech bonitation.
This wouldn't most likely have happened in Slovakia, because of his index of height.
So isn't it not just the other way round?;-);-);-)

Regards,
Michael

Rona 24-11-2010 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339692)
Yes, I think, exist differents in countries in measuring of HD. And in some countries NOBODY measure X-ray photos, but doctor only look at photo and write result. It is bad, but true.

I can only write about my experience and your statement is highly invalid. In the vet clinic were most Krakow CSVs are tested for HD and ED six X-ray pictures are made on the most modern US equipment and each dog gets a CD with the photos and a special programme by which the angles are precisely measured. The angles are tested by regular method AND additionaly a Pen Hip! Before the test the vet makes sure the dog is at least 15 months old (not even a day less!) and takes the pedigree, so the owner cannot "escape" without the result put on it. Dr Orzeł, (a surgeon!) measures the angles in the presence of the owner and another vet and gives initiary results. Then the results and the pedigree are sent to the vet who has the right to put it in the dog's pedigree! In most cases it's dr Simebieda, but not only. If the owner wishes the results can be sent to another wet with authority to put them onto the pedigree. There was not even one case of different results by Dr Orzeł and another vet!

I also heard many stories of unreliabilty of Czech dogs HD results, but I'm far from blaming all Czech owners/breeders/vets of cheating or lack of competence.
Besides, the Czech Republic is not the center of Universe and as far as I know, CSVs herd books are in Slovakian hands :twisted:

BTW Have you ever heard about the notion of TRUST? If all people breeding CSV would have your imperialistic approach we could forget about any international cooperation.:|

jasmine 24-11-2010 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 339717)
Hi Hanka,

why is it easier?
This dog ( and many more...) www.wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d9548.html got a P1 in a Czech bonitation.
This wouldn't most likely have happened in Slovakia, because of his index of height.
So isn't it not just the other way round?;-);-);-)

Regards,
Michael



ohh Michael ,

The very strict czeh bonitacio, extra strict Hd examination, super working dogs, super od Uhoste, super Hanka
Typical mystification of Hanka. And for her doesn't matter that many of us could write many many counter-example.
And of course she took part in this conversation, please don't forget she also has 4 litters for sale :)

I don't think that Sonja or Oscar would give the good bonitacion marks just for fun!


Edit

michaelundinaeichhorn 24-11-2010 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339710)
Hi Ina, and what you sent there and you have not answer? Write me it, I ask what hapenned when you have not answer or I can help you too.
Yes, I read your topic from yesterdsay, you wait some translation from Sonja. And you sent something similar to czech club too? To what person? Let me know and I will "put" it here.
You can in email.

Hanka,

the club head that was in Hanarovo got the same papers and an explanation from me there everybody else got, I was very happy I had the oportunity to meet somebody of the Czech Club since Sona couldn´t manage to reach anybody.
He was also there when the matter was discussed at the Club meeting. He told me he has problems with English so he will read it at home and he asked me to send an email to him and talk to you as you take care of this. The last things I wasn´t able to do as I have a life apart from CSW and have to earn some money sometimes, so this part was clearly my fault.

But nevertheless, Bern was talked about here in this forum, the papers are in the Czech Republic, the health problem is known since some time and how many Czech Results of blood tests are there, I wrote here that Bern will store blood for free, how many Czech blood samples are there? I can tell you how many Slovakian ones are there. The Slovakians immediadly took action when asked for, they had a lot of questions and we talked about it three nights till early morning but they wanted to help the breed, not everybody joined in but this is normal.

I completly agree with Rona, this kind of talk about other countries, especially about Slovakia is highly contraproductiv apart from being wrong too. To create some pseudo Rep-free lines with mother-genes totally ignored is no longer enough, to concentrate on IPO-training is the method that ruined already the GSD, to point the finger on everybody living outside your country is not very helpfull and and and.
Sorry, but you got me on an impatient day, so I wrote what I think about it not what might be political sensible as I normally try to do (though not very successful).

Ina

jefta 24-11-2010 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 339717)
Hi Hanka,

why is it easier?
This dog ( and many more...) www.wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d9548.html got a P1 in a Czech bonitation.
This wouldn't most likely have happened in Slovakia, because of his index of height.
So isn't it not just the other way round?;-);-);-)

Regards,
Michael

http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/98248/
is it short legged and so long dog :shock:

but I hope that charakter test is judged more severely than in SK

jasmine 24-11-2010 11:46

Hey Admin ,


The last parts realy don't belong to me...so I'm just wondering, if you could turn part the temperamebt topic into two parts....why doesn't you put these parts to the right place? :rock_3

Thanks,


Edit

Hanka 24-11-2010 11:58

Hi Ina,
do you write about leader of Czech club? Karel Skoupy? Did he promised you something and result was zero? You write about man.....
Because sometimes I don´t understand all in english language, what you write.

Other stupid articles I will not comment...................I am adult already.

wolfin 24-11-2010 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine (Bericht 339233)

And I must ask you Margo, if I always make bad litters why do you use always the same males for breeding?????

Hero z Rofa
Borko Kollarov Dvor
I used Koro you used Kondor.......
I used Carr M.B just Mona was empty
Hitt Spod Dumbiera
Juri Zlata Palz
wanted to use Argo Tajomy Tulak....than Alf T.T and his son........
very creative ideas!!!!!!


Edit


ha ha in this case I used Amir z Vlcej rokliny and NOTHING NOT CAN used him now, when I be first.

funny ? yes? when we all have others line pedigree and all male who we used thogether have others puppy pedigree with us alls female.
realy this topic are very funny

wolfin 24-11-2010 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 339718)
In the vet clinic were most Krakow CSVs are tested for HD and ED six X-ray pictures are made on the most modern US equipment and each dog gets a CD with the photos and a special programme by which the angles are precisely measured. eeding CSV would have your imperialistic approach we could forget about an

we have this same. A littl3e strange when ours GSD has in LT HD B or HD C and go to Germany to SV vet and got a HD A. I think Hanka You have only megalomania about alls who have in CZ- betters dogs, betters HD betters bonitation. You realy think all others country and people arre stupid and dark. sorry :) I moore believe in others country work not in CZ. Why- when down pink glases maybe and You see this.

michaelundinaeichhorn 24-11-2010 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339756)
Hi Ina,
do you write about leader of Czech club? Karel Skoupy? Did he promised you something and result was zero? You write about man.....
Because sometimes I don´t understand all in english language, what you write.

Other stupid articles I will not comment...................I am adult already.

It doesn´t matter who it was and he doesn´t promise anything. My point was that from THAT country doing everything better than anybody else I would expect some more reaction to severe problems, not less reaction.
Ali Reolup died after the possibility of gene tests occured and after a DNA-database was started, he is in the pedigree of very many dogs, all his littermates are dead. Did you think of keeping a blood sample of him or is his DNA lost forever? How many dogs in Czech Republik are tested?

If you tell us your country is doing everthing better than anybody else you will be confronted with questions like that...

Ina

jasmine 24-11-2010 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339756)
Other stupid articles I will not comment...................I am adult already.

Adults try to be realistic and don't drop bulshits.
But through the pink glasess (that's good Daiva !!! :lol: ) the world is realy nice....BUT NOT TRUE !!!!!!!!!!!

Edit

Hanka 24-11-2010 14:54

No Ina, read it once again.
i wrote, I use sometimes foreign dogs for me too. But it is a pitty, they have not czech for example Hd results (of course). because i will see HJd result from our doctor and I can compare it. because in other countries can be different system. I know all doctors must conside Hd the same, but it is uthopy. Always will be differencies. and if all dogs will have the same bonitation (I mean test of character, because measuring is + - the same) I can image WHAT dog is. But a few different test of characters....I can see code about character, but I know nothing about dog, because absolutelly differernt test of charatcer.
It is not secret, my Ali was carier of dwarfism. He has it from parents- of course. I never keep it like secret. Ali was carrier like teoreticly over 3600 wolfdogs in the world - offsprings of Amur z Ďáblova kaňonu. Everybody who want or wont to know it, can ask me or all breeding commission in CZ. Nobody will keep it in scret. So why you ask me about his test???
I organised colection of blood here last year, but here was not much people which had money for it. So now we try it once again. Now is here more people which want test dogs. So my plane is to do it in spring, because will be more new owners. So where is problem? maybe next time first you can ask me what is new about tests and I answer you.
and I must tell you: only me organised it in past, nobody other. So, please, don´t write me in this tone.......
But if in all World will be minimally the same breeding rules like here, I will be happy. we will have HD, ED checked dogs, shy dogs can´t pass bonitation, somebody will watch groups of bloods, somebody will lead breeding in country.......but it is always the same...............
I don´t see other countries where all breeding dogs must have some these tests. Everybody do it only voluntarilly.
I wont help you with your problem from Havranovo, because I don´t know what happened in comunication with our club....But no, on this level no.

wolfin 24-11-2010 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339820)

But if in all World will be minimally the same breeding rules like here, I will be happy. we will have HD, ED checked dogs,

ED? ha ha you make this if i good member only 1- or 2 years and who panic was when they mas make. In Lithuania ( oh poore, stupid country and vet) make this from 2003 years with wolfdogs. :)

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...76&postcount=6
(p.s. i put this info, when Hanka maybe forget about this. Sory but in CZ not are ED statistic per years.)

p.s. If I good member NOT ALL wolfdog in CZ and now make ED test, only this who want. In LT this make ALL dogs.

michaelundinaeichhorn 24-11-2010 15:06

Sorry Hanka but you started this tone on others first and I am not the only one that got you this way. That was the reason why I asked you back in the same manner.
And I didn´t ask about dwarfism but about DM and blood samples in DNA-databases.
Also the Czech bonitation codes are not of much use for me because of the Indices not being of consequence for the result and the kind of character test you do, that doesn´t show for me the inherited character of the dog.

So obviously we both have the same problem and should work together not against each other.

jasmine 24-11-2010 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339820)
No Ina, read it once again.
i wrote, I use sometimes foreign dogs for me too. But it is a pitty, they have not czech for example Hd results (of course). because i will see HJd result from our doctor and I can compare it. because in other countries can be different system. I know all doctors must conside Hd the same, but it is uthopy. Always will be differencies. and if all dogs will have the same bonitation (I mean test of character, because measuring is + - the same) I can image WHAT dog is. But a few different test of characters....I can see code about character, but I know nothing about dog, because absolutelly differernt test of charatcer.
It is not secret, my Ali was carier of dwarfism. He has it from parents- of course. I never keep it like secret. Ali was carrier like teoreticly over 3600 wolfdogs in the world - offsprings of Amur z Ďáblova kaňonu. Everybody who want or wont to know it, can ask me or all breeding commission in CZ. Nobody will keep it in scret. So why you ask me about his test???
I organised colection of blood here last year, but here was not much people which had money for it. So now we try it once again. Now is here more people which want test dogs. So my plane is to do it in spring, because will be more new owners. So where is problem? maybe next time first you can ask me what is new about tests and I answer you.
and I must tell you: only me organised it in past, nobody other. So, please, don´t write me in this tone.......
But if in all World will be minimally the same breeding rules like here, I will be happy. we will have HD, ED checked dogs, shy dogs can´t pass bonitation, somebody will watch groups of bloods, somebody will lead breeding in country.......but it is always the same...............
I don´t see other countries where all breeding dogs must have some these tests. Everybody do it only voluntarilly.
I wont help you with your problem from Havranovo, because I don´t know what happened in comunication with our club....But no, on this level no.


blablablablablablablablabla.....just wash your hands!!!!!!!!!!!
you jump to your own trap !!!!!
do you want to drop your bulshits to us??? we also deal with this breed for ages!!!!!!!

yukidomari 24-11-2010 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 339820)
I know all doctors must conside Hd the same, but it is uthopy.

I'm sorry, this is not too important in this matter but in the USA there are 2 methods for testing hips and they are different.

Not all methods are the same, I'm not sure which are used in Europe but in the USA it is either registered with OFFA which gives rating like "Excellent" "Good", "Fair", etc. It takes a single film, and it is sent to OFFA headquarters and rated there. The animal does not need to be drugged to sleep.

Or, it is registered with PennHIP, which has PennHIP licensed vets, and they give scores by numerical rating. 3 films are taken, the animal is sleeping so the hips can be manipulated into correct position (which is painful if awake).

PennHIP in my opinion is the more accurate of the two methods, it can be done on animals as young as 16 weeks, but is best recommended to take the exam multiple times as the animal grows and take the average of the scores to 'predict' final hip score.

PennHIP was pioneered at the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary College, one of the best and foremost veterinary practices in the USA.

This is example of OFFA film:
http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

These are examples of PennHIP's three films:
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhi...8/Default.aspx

PS - It is entirely possible for 2 vets to disagree on OFFA type film because there is an "art" of examining the film, but PennHIP type is taken by mathematical measurement.

elf 24-11-2010 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 339928)
I'm sorry, this is not too important in this matter but in the USA there are 2 methods for testing hips and they are different.

Not all methods are the same, I'm not sure which are used in Europe but in the USA it is either registered with OFFA which gives rating like "Excellent" "Good", "Fair", etc. It takes a single film, and it is sent to OFFA headquarters and rated there. The animal does not need to be drugged to sleep.

Or, it is registered with PennHIP, which has PennHIP licensed vets, and they give scores by numerical rating. 3 films are taken, the animal is sleeping so the hips can be manipulated into correct position (which is painful if awake).

PennHIP in my opinion is the more accurate of the two methods, it can be done on animals as young as 16 weeks, but is best recommended to take the exam multiple times as the animal grows and take the average of the scores to 'predict' final hip score.

PennHIP was pioneered at the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary College, one of the best and foremost veterinary practices in the USA.

This is example of OFFA film:
http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

These are examples of PennHIP's three films:
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhi...8/Default.aspx

PS - It is entirely possible for 2 vets to disagree on OFFA type film because there is an "art" of examining the film, but PennHIP type is taken by mathematical measurement.

Currently a small "problem" with PennHip is the etalon value for the breed is I guess not done yet, I don't recall how many CSV are needed, maybe 20 at the beginning. The DI and HD correlation is breed dependant (I guess currently they are doing an average with GSD type):

http://www.pennhip.org/Images/DJD_Probability.jpg

Rona 24-11-2010 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 339928)
I'm sorry, this is not too important in this matter but in the USA there are 2 methods for testing hips and they are different.

We have already discussed this issue here: :)
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8227

yukidomari 24-11-2010 19:30

Thanks Rona!!


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