Sorry there was no answer but we spent few days in Slovakia and came back first Monday evening...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonfiglioli
Pongo qui questa domanda perchè mi interessa avere alcune informazioni.
Premettendo che non si è mai finito di imparare, ho notato il nuovo accoppiamento tra Jolly ed Iran.
Non ho potuto fare a meno di vedere che un "sotto-standard" alto 64 cm e NON coraggioso ha avuto un P5.
Come è possibile?
Ma qui in Italia non hanno dato dei P14 per gli stessi motivi?
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It is huge story... Some of you are right - the influence on the bonitation code has different reasons. I can not explain why EXACTLY Iran is P5 and Cutt P14. You have to ask the judges which made the bonitations. So far I know it is because the "OVERALL VALUE" of the dogs.
Iran was living (and still lives) in HORIBLE conditions. Not enough food, he left the cage I think only 5-6 times in his live (for two dog shows, one run, youth presentation and one bonitation). But still he is very open to people and prying. Maybe the judge took in to consideration his life? Maybe it was the extremly unique pedigree he has and the judge decided this dog should be P14 but we need this blood in breeding so he/she gave P5....
As you can see Cutt is something else: he is living in perfect conditions so it was not the lack of food which could have the influence that he didn't grow enough and is too small. Cutt visited many shows so his character can not be explained with the lack of socialization. I heard also the charakcter and size were not the only problems which caused his disqualification. Also the 200 offsprings of Cutt make him a dog which has no value because his blood is everywere...
Maybe it is why Iran is P5 and Cutt only P14... Maybe...
Why we took Iran? There were different reasons... Everything was checked and very well planned...
1) Iran has one of the most unique pedigrees in this breed
2) He is not only very similar in look to Tambury I like a lot but also similar in the temperament and condition: he is 9 years old but still running and playing like young dog...
3) I know his offsprings - they are not only high enough but also VERY wolfish... One time you have to see Hron radov dvor: great look, great coat and high size. For me it is one of the nicest Wolfdogs I ever saw. I know also personally Ibona, Inka, and Chrtista. All very wolfish, perfect CzW. But I have something else - a dog which is very high inbeed on Iran - and... he is 100% WOLF in look. Here are some photos of the puppy which is 7 months old:
As you can see there are many reasons why it was good idea to use him...
Another thing is the assessment of the 'risk'. It is the same with the HD: for me is it much better to use dog with HD-C because you KNOW the dog is HD-C than to use a dog with no results because it can be HD-A but it can be also HD-E. So the risk to use HD-C dog is smaller...
The same is here: I KNOW Iran is 64 cm high. But do you know how many Italian dogs do not have the minimum? I saw some of them and the people are breeding with them without saying anything and I see no prostest written by you or someone else...
Missing measerement to not mean the dog has the minimum...
Another example - my litter and your litters.
Jolly 64cm (a pretty big CzW female) with high dogs in the pedigree... Iran is 64cm. But the dogs in his pedigree are of average size... The only risk is the one cm of Iran...
Ombra is daughter of Cutt which is too small. It is hard to say about other dogs frm her pedigree because by some bonitation results are missing so we don't know if the had the minimum of the size, right?
You took Forrest for Ombra. Did you measured him? Because he do not look to be a high dog - I think he is average or under the average height. Maybe he is OK. But I know his sisters and brothers had serious problems with the height. Faust is MUCH smaller than Forrest. Falco is under the minimun (64cm) and Fargo also didn't reached the miminum (it was the reason why his owner didn't decided to the bonitation with him and gave him away in the end). Fortuna is OK, but also not a very big female...
So if you see I do not make anything strange... My choose was very good well-though-out and from the genetic side I risk much less than you risked with your litter...
PS: I do not have anything against your litter and the puppies look good but I want only to show this that if you have FULL information about something you risk MUCH LESS than by litter which in theory lokks OK but only if someone do not have enough einformation about the offspring, ancestors and bonitations....
And it was exactly the problem with Cutt - he had 200 offsprings and NOBODY knew it that he is too small. The question is how many dogs like Cutt are in this breed...? It is not a problem to mate Cutt with pretty high female. But the problem is: if you don't know the sizes of dogs you use you can not be sure that Cutt was many times not mated with females which ALSO do not have the minimum. Again: missing bonitation or official measurement do not mean the dog is OK...
