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Old 12-11-2007, 23:49   #5
z Peronówki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaldo_it View Post
La discussione dal titolo 104 allevatori, voleva anche introdurre qualcosa di piu corposo. Ho dunque creato questo nuovo argomento proprio per staccare la spina coi fraintendimenti sugli elenchi e le classifiche.

Prendendo per validi (e non vedo perche dubitarne) i dati statistici di WD, si vede che ormai il 25% dei CLC sono e vengono prodotti in Italia.

Questo porta inevitabilmente l'Italia ad essere il paese piu rilevante nell'allevamento di tale razza.

In questo ci sono certamente aspetti positivi e negativi, ma soprattutto aspetti da cui non si puo prescindere.

Come accennavo prima, trovo positivo che si possano elencare tutti coloro che hanno messo femmine in riproduzione. Attualmente 121 nominativi (immagino in crescita).

Forse c'e da cominciare a pensare seriamente che non si puo ragionare a livello mondiale di CLC ignorando quelli italiani, il nostro modo di selezionare ecc.

E anche si dovrebbe prender atto che nemmeno con tutta la buona volonta, il paio di allevamenti piu grossi e loro collegati, riescono anche solo lontanamente ad avvicinare il numero totale di CLC nati in Italia in questi anni.

Vogliamo parlarne con tranquillita e costruttivo spirito critico?
I stay a little bit by side during the conversations... But allow me to add some points...

Not the quantity counts... but the QUALITY.... More influence have countries which have better QUALITY dogs and not those which have more...

First it make no sense to compare number of kennels in Slovakia an Czech Republic to Italy... In Italy anyone can breed with the CLC. Anyone can make puppies... In Slovakian and Czech Republic you need MUCH more... You have to register the kennel. The dogs MUST have the X-rays. And the bonitation.... In Slovakia you need additionaly the dog shows and endurance run... Do you know how many italian 'kennels' will be listed when we remove ALL kennels which dogs are not X-rayed (which do not fulfil even the BASIC condition)?
Sorry but so far the Czech or Slovakian list consist of BREEDERS and the italian list mostly of people which simply made some puppies... Only few kennels can be really called BREEDERS (I do not mean people which "just" have ENCI kennel names but people which really try to improve something).

Slovakia has less puppies and dogs than f.e. Czech Republic. Much fewer than Italy. But SLOVAKIAN dogs are recognized to be much better according the breed standard... Why? Because of the RULES.... In the czech or slovak club there are breed supervisors which care of the breeding is on the good level... In Italy (and many other countries) the breeders make what they want. And it has very negative influence on the breed... Why?

- many breeders produce for money
So they breed not TYPICAL dogs but dog which are better to sell... They do not care about BLOOD or LINES. They just produce... One litter after another with the same matings, the same males, the same blood... IN CZ or SK you can see similar pseudo-breeders but most of them are FORCED to follow the PLAN. They can not use always the same male only because it is cheaper to use own male than to travel some km to use more intereesting (better?) dog.
In Italy you have good potential. Don't loose it covering italian dogs with nice and interesting pedigrees with dogs which are worth NOTHING (it means have the same blood as 100, 200 or 300 other italian dogs... Think out some INTERESTING matings... There are so many interesting dogs with NO offsprings...

- nobody cares for the character
First what you hear in Czech Republic is "Italian dogs are shy". Sure it base on the prejudices but in many cases Italian dogs which go (or better said 'went' last years) for dog shows to Czech Republic are the best example for it... Some Czech people only repeat what the heard but sometimes they see "the Best Italian Champion from the Best Italian Kennel" schocked and scared in the rings and they say "Ehhh.. yes, it is true - they are shy".
But also no wonder if you compare how care for the character Czech and Italian breeders. Sometimes ONE Czech dog have MUCH MORE working results than one whole BIG Italian kennel...
Don't say me in Italy are also good dogs and good breeders. I know it. But if we take into consideration number of pased exams in Czech Reublic, level of the exams then other countries (also Italy) stay MANY years behind the country of origin... And it is really visible...

- no control
Nobody controls the quality of the dogs in Italy... So everybody is breeding what he/she wants... Even the biggest faults are not persecuted... Such situation ALWAYS lead to creating a new "type" which in many cases have nothing to do with the breed standard...

Do you know the case of Black Russian Terriers? Many years ago Russia was not the FCI member. So the garant of the breed become Germany... The German breeders bred the dogs according their imagination... Later Russia joined FCI and took back the title "garant of the breed". What happend? The German Black Russian Terriers were TOTALLY different from these from Russian. They didn't fulfilled the main points of the breed standard. Russian breeders described it short: GERMAN Black Russian Terriers are simply not typical...
Similar (but more famous) story knows every owner of the Akita Inu and American Akita... Also American breeders created their own "type" of Akita which even DO NOT RESEMBLE the Japan Akita Inus...

Something similar happens in Italy... Some time ago Navarre laught about the difference between the CLC created by Hartl and the Italian type CLC. And the difference is still there... Few most visible differences between AVERAGE Slovak and Italian CLC?


**** the colour - while the Slovak and Czech breeders know the typical CLC must have the colour of a European Wolf (colour of the ground) it seems italian breeders love the very light dogs (grey colour by CLC if far away from being perfect and only tolerated) and even make the selection which cause the loss of colour. It is very hard to find italian CLC which have the same dark colour like TYPICAL wolf (Canis Lupus Lupus)... They are so seldom that dog which has the same colour like REAL wolf is in Italy collector's item...


**** the heads - Wolves have triangle heads. Italian breeders preffer much narrow one - so called "collie heads" (long and narrow, not triangle). It is sometimes hard to see the difference when the dogs have nice fur which "hides" the heard but it is VERY visible if you measure it or compare the dogs without the hair... We counted it one time and took Italian dog (which is average italian male and not a dog with extremly narrow head) with over 70 cm at shoulders and small Slovak male (66cm). The Slovak dog had wider head then the Italian. It caused also the expresion of the Slovak male was MUCH MORE wolfish that the Italian one.

It is a little bit hard to explain... Maybe two photos - both shows known females:

first is from Slovakia:



second from Italy


As you see the Italian head looks "weak" - the wolfish look is gone. But on the same time MANY Italian breeders do not care for the right look and try to breed dogs with such fragile heads...


*** body - I think here you can see the biggest differences between Italian and Slovak dogs... While in Slovakia everybody knows the MAIN characteristic of a CLC are long legs, chest which is NEVER deep and wide, and legs which are poor angulated - in Italy the dogs go in other direction: breeders breed what the judges like and not what is called TYPICAL for THIS breed. Judges love dogs which have spacious movement like many Shepherd Dogs. And many breeders breed not according the breed standard but what the allrouder judges like... It causes many Italian dogs to move TOTALLY different from Wolves or CLC described in the breed standard... We must be honest: CLC which has narrov chest, long legs and wolfish pretty short step will not win many shows in Italy because only experts (only judges which read and UNDERSTOOD the standard) will know it is the most important feature of the CLC. So only breeders which not breed CLC to win Italian shows, which really know the standard and do not care for ignoramus judges will be able to breed good build CLC. But you know such breeders are always minority... Any for this reason the majority of Italian dogs have huge problems to keep indexes of height and length which are so important...

Again photos - and again both show known females:

first is from Slovakia:



second from Italy


As you can see the difference is good visible (the Italian female is not VERY long as for italian "standards" - I know some where short legs, very long body is MUCH more extrem. She has also good chest - not so expressed breast what you san see by many dogs which have too wide front).
The Slovakian female has nice long legs, compact body, nice indexed. Italian female is already different... Much longer... But as I told - as for Italian dog she is pretty short... You saw for sure exampples which much better show this problem...


**** the hair - many Italian breeders decided to breed CLC with impresive coat. They made some connections which caused that the longhaired dogs appeared... The history knows such cases because long coat comes from the German Shepherd and some of the first CLCs had also such untypical hair. But while in CZ and SK the breedeers work to remove such untypical hair in Italy it goes different way and I see many people preffer such coat (breeders try only to hide the extreem cases) because the longahaired dogs never shad totally like Wolves or typical CLC do....
The hair lose also the quality - CLC must have pretty hard coat (like goats). But more and more you can meet CLC with soft, silky hair which can be threated like hair of Husky... I will not post photos... they are to... negative...


- what also is missing in Italy and what is the most important thing are PEOPLE. Breeders, judges and owners with KNOWLEDGE... Breeding many litters, visiting many shows and owning many dogs do not mean automatically the specific person is someone who knows how to breed CLC. Much too many people evaluate the dogs according the rule: NICE WOLFDOG IS MY WOLFDOG I know a Italian breeder which some people from the origin country tried to explain what is important by CLC. His answers is: "I know the standard but I do not care about it. I breed dog s which I LIKE". And it is the biggest problem. Not only in Italy... To many people breed what then HAVE, what they WANT and not what is TYPICAL...


Please to not feel attacked.. I can write even more critics about Poland population... But it doesnt matter which country has more CLC. It is about the point which country is BETTER. If we take into consideration number of kennels than still the origin countries are much better than any other country... The Czech dogs have much better character and we can learn a lot from them how to breed STABLE dogs. The Slovak dogs have much better LOOK - are much more typical. And both countries care much more for keeping the lines and to save the genetic diversity.

I'm also a breeder. And I also look what is going on in Italy... But I will be honest - I also do not like the look of the "Italian type CLC". For me they do not resemble real Wolves. Such dogs are nice but as DOGS. Not Wolfdogs...
I will be honest - I saw also many dogs where I told "WOW. Very nice CLC"... but the dogs were in look similar the best dogs which you can see in Slovakia, Germany or Czech Republic... It is also no wonder - breed standard is only ONE. If you will see on one dog shows the best dogs from different countries which are very close to the breed standard you will see they are almost the same... Different origins, different pedigree but the same LOOK. TYPICAL look...

I'm VERY HAPPY that about CLC do not decide ONE breeder, that in the fact nobody cares if one breeder makes his own "version" of CLC. Nobody cares about the "Italian Collie", "French Jackal" "Old Czech Shepherd" or "Polish Saarloos-Bullterrier". Such dogs are simply dogs which do not keep the standard... And even if Italy 90% CLC will look like "Italian collies" it will not influence the breed because no responsible good breeder will go to Italy to cover his/her female with such dog... So the extreme cases will not spread to the other countries and will be isolated...

Anyway I hope so...

PS. The Slovak Club is preparing the explanation of the breed standard with photos and many examples which will be sent to the judges of our breed. The point it to teach the judges what is important for CLC and what is a fault... Maybe it will stop a little bit the HUGE differences in judging the CLC by EXPERTS and ALLROUNDERS...
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