[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by stefano

It's important that the colour is in the standard just when the pedegree is issued, nothing matters if growing the dog become pink with pois green, ehehe!

Right. But you know what's funny? Mr. Hartl wrote on the official paper during the registration of the litter of the Mutara mixes by the Czech Kennel Club: "Mother: Lupina. Coat colour: wolfgrey"....hmmmm...maybe I drank too much during our holidays in Slovakia and now I see white mices.... sorry WHITE wolf...
It is really puzzling that even the official kennel club has been cheated in this case.... Or maybe someone of you really see BROWNGREY wolf on this photo:

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

it's forbidden to improve the breed with wolf blood.

It is not forbidden - if there will be a REAL need we can still use such crossing to add fresh blood. But we don't need it now - there is really no need to do it. The whole population of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs have about 4500 dogs (some scholar says a "healty" population must have a last 2500 individuals). So what we need is selection, propagation of the breed and breeders which breed typical Wolfdog (acording the exterier and character). It is all....!

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

How this "dog" has the pedigree?

There is always a possibility to register dogs without the pedigree if they are typical according the character and look. It is often used to build "natural breeds". For example we use the same by Polish Tatra Shepherd Dog - there are many such dogs living in mountains. Most of them are real working Polish Tatra Shepherd Dogs but they don't have pedigrees (highlanders don't care for something like this). So we make a bonitation of such dogs and if they pass it we register them in the registry.

But Wolfdogs are something different - they didn't developed naturally. They were an experiment which later was evolved to a breed. Every dog was registered - all had pedigrees. So there was no need to register any Wolfdogs without pedigree. Also the breeding comittee was against it - none of the owners of any mixes similar to CzW was able to register his dog by the Czech Kennel Club.

First the current breeding comittee broke this rule and used this way to register Mutaras.... Of course they had to lie about the origin and other features of this dogs and they also broke some FCI rules but they were successful and the whole A-litter get pedigrees....

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

I can speak only about our ministers here in Italy, and as a lot of them haven' t never had, or seen, o dog in their life, if they know that somebody cross dogs with wolves at present time, and sell them, I only imagine what will happen, a mess!!!

Italy is not an exception...there are more countriesgoing the same way. Now there is nothing what can be used against our breed - we are as pure as the driven snow...
But if the Czech breeders will use this mixes it will change...and after it all that's laft for us to do is to wait that CzW will be banned if the most EU coutries....Nice future!

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

it's written that the SWD is a crossbreed between GSD and siberian wolf (in a magazine is written tha it suffer warm temperature because its siberian origin); what is the truth, there is a differente between carpatian and siberian wolf?

Hmmmm....there are some false concepts.
In Europe we have only one wolf: Canis Lupus Lupus. It has been called as "European Wolf" or "Common Wolf". Canis Lupus Lupus looks the same in whole EU but differs a little bit depending of the region he is living. For example European Wolfves living in cold parts of Europe are bigger. European Wolves living in South of Europe are much smaller and have shorter coat. For Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs the founders used Carpathian Wolves - it means European Wolves living in mountains of Slovakia.

There are also European Wolves living in Siberia - they are much bigger that wolves we know but look exactly the same. But there are also totally different wolves - in Siberia you can meet Siberia Wolf (Canis Lupus Albus), in region of Canada and America also Arctik Wolf (Canis Lupus Arctos), Canadian Wolf (Canis Lupus Occidentalis) and other subspecies. Lupina - the mother of Mutara Mixes belongs to one of the North American subspecies - she is a white Canadian Wolf.

Originally Posted by Himmel

Lupina had her lucky day with Armin

I'm not so sure about it. Lupina was mated with Armin when she was already 10 years old.... There were 6 puppies born - 3 of them died. Nice example of responsible breeding, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Himmel

....the rescue of the CsW!!!!!

It's a pitty but it is not true. The breeder of Mutaras and owner of Lupina and Armin is not a big fan of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. He even attacked our breed in an article in a newspaper "Pes" (one of the most know Czech dog magazine). He had no interests to help us....it was not his goal....and it is also not his goal now...

Originally Posted by Himmel

NOTHING that I saw in that article about the choice that took them from discarding CARPATI to using CANADIAN wolf is plausible

And I'm really unable to find a logical reason...

But ...there is no logical reason. There is no logic at all... Every scientists reading this theses will get sick because it is breaking the main rules of scientific research. They say it is an experiment which have to check if the genes of a Wolf (it means witout HD) are stronger than genes of a GSD (it means with HD). But:

- even if it will be checked by testing the Mutaras the only result of this experiment will be: genes of CANADIAN wolf are stronger then genes of a GSD (Mix). So for our breed they have to REPEAT the same experiment because Canadian Wolf is different than European Wolf so something that is true fo them does not have to be true for European Wolves.

- I read this question on the Czech Forum and it is true: how they want to check whether the "healty" genes of a Canadian Wolf are dominant if they mate a wolf with HEALTY dogs (and wolfdogs)? If they really want to make an research they have to mate HEALTY wolf with a dog with strong HD. After it they can see if the next generations are healty (it means genes of a wolf are really helpful) or not (it means wolfsblood don't help with fighting with HD).

Originally Posted by Pavel

According breeding rules of FCI is artifical insemination possible only in special cases, when just the same pair has had a puppies by naturally way and later come some physicaly problems.

But now we are talking only about an experiment so the FCI rules are not important.

Originally Posted by RPaul

A bad opinion is the meaning, we need more hard killers, whatever that means. Dangerous dogs may a race like CWD faster destroy than this Timber-Wolve-experiment.

That's right. I will write it in different way: the biggest problem for CzW by a protection work is they don't want to bite... Really. Compared with Belgian Shepherd Dogs, Germans Shepherd Dogs, Rottweilers or Dobermanns our dogs are really peacefull creatures...
Sure our breed was made for tracking and not for protection work. But as "real" working breed are recognized only dogs which bite hard and for fun (that's the point where we are attacked by other trainers and other "working breed" owners). So if we want to make our breed more "working" we have to improve this characteristic. And as Pavel wrote Armin have lot of exams but he is really not that good in protection work. So for improving this feature of our breed he is useless...

Originally Posted by massimo

It's a real DISCUSSION and we are not speaking against a wall.
This for me is positive.

That's right. The mistake Andrea made was she didn't explained she is writing the words of Monika. You know we are really sensitive to the words of Czech Breeding Comittee - if someone is just repeating their words it is really easy for us to find it out because we know all arguments of Mutara Wolfdog founders...

Originally Posted by massimo

Many italians are thinking that if it's REALLY an experiment and it's REALLY done to improve the race, then why not.

I really understand it. The same problem is in Czech Republic. The breeding comitee told to some club members: we made a GSD-Wolf crossing and now we will use it to mate with CzW because of HD problems. So the answer of the people is: "Why not, that's the way Hartl made our breed before". NOBODY have ever said to this people Lupina is a WHITE CANADIAN wolf and Armin is NOT A GSD. Nobody said there is no real problem with HD by CzW.

If someone is more inquiring - it means if someone is against it the breeding comitte members say to such people: why you are against it? It is just an experiment. We just want to see the heritage of HD a.s.o. This mixes have nothing to do with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
So the answer of the people is: "Why not, it is just an experiment which will not hurt our breed". NOBODY have ever said to this people the mixes are already registered as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and this year will be covered (if they are not already mated) with CzW males.

So the answer to Italian people is: it is NOT an experiment and it is NOT made to improve the breed.... It IS just for fun of some people...

Originally Posted by RPaul

it only means, that the informations about the italian breeders are too thin

We already spoke about it with Italian breeders (they are also people which are angry about puppy mills) and we decided if someone is not interested in cooperation and is not sending us the info about their litters and dogs we do not advertise their litters.
Italy has the biggest amount of CzW breeders and it is not surprising there are also people which make it for money. But we can't attack all Italian breeders because there are also some which really care for our breed. And exactly this discusion with presence of the Italian owners/breeders is the best example for it.

Originally Posted by mike08

Sorry I dont know how difficult and how the laws are to create a new racestandard and which peoples are permits to do that but in the end its a new dograce! Or not?

Yes. Right. They created a new breed....hmmmm... Mutara Wolfdog. Sounds nice, or?
If they don't want to create new breed we still can pack up all Mutaras (the whole Czech breeding comittee too) and send them to the Dutch Saarloos Club. This mixes are useless for us and have nothing to do with Czechoslovakian Wolves but maybe it can help Saarloos people.? Do you want them? We will give you extra charge if you will free us from them...

Originally Posted by massimo

After a long time it was like Monika and Margo were speaking to eachother again. WOW

We already spoke with Monika about this mixes almost in all know languages. So Italian is just another one...