[z Peronówki]

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

Both Hybrids were judged in the dog show because according to the CMKU rules, the subjects which are written in the Register (the one for new races or test litters) must participate at least at 2 shows obtaining at least very good, so our initial program has changed.

It is not true.
First - according to the CMKU rules the dogs have to be judged BEFORE writting into the Register. So they were registered without fulfiling the conditions... Illegal.
Second - you have to participate in the shows ONLY if you want to register the mixes as CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS. So in this case it means: Mutaras are not an experiment but (false) Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and will be used for breeding for sure. And the words of Monika are only proof for it.
Third - you don't need to take part in the CLASSES with these mixes. For example: if you applied a dog for a show but you came too late to be judges you can still be judged outside the classes. You will not get any titles but you will still have official note and description. So it was not needed to apply Mutaras INTO the classes. Additional: it was also a real paranoia because the mix was also taking part in the Best Couple competition.... For what reason?

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

What Margo wrote about Armin is really false. The list of the levels obtained is really long: ZM, ZVV 1, ZVV 2 (kind of IPO 1,2,3), ZPU - 1, ZPU -2, ZPS -1,(special track 1 -2) ZPO -1(special defence), TART 1 - 3 (kind of SCH), SPT -1, 2, 3, (special track 1 -3 Tart) OPT 1 -2 (special defence 1, 2 - Tart ).

First - ZVV 2 can be compared more with IPO2 than with IPO3.
Second - it doesn't matter...
I know nice Malinois with HD-A, Working Interchampion title, with IPO3 and very nice position in the World Championships. But so what? Should I use it?

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

Margo has never seen him in her life, she didn't mention which military gave her the information and so her speaches are worth nothing. We saw him while he was working and it was a pleasure to see him.

Dear Monika - I never saw Armin. I never said that. But I have a judgement of his protection work abilities by someone who knows him. And I'm sorry to say it but for me his opinion is more worth that opinion of a just dog owner... Sure Armin is biting but not as good as some other dogs so if you want to improved this features by our breed you have to choose an other dog...
But...it doesn't matter...you don't care for character. You just want to improve the HD results. Don't you?

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

We think that the hybrids have a very good character also because they have Armin's blood, not only because of good socialization.

HEH? Sorry, but I saw one of the mixes on the training ground and it working abilities can be compared not with GSD or CzW but with autistic Husky. OK, I didn't see a lot because the mix tried to attack our bitch. Nothing big happened but it was not the only case according to the words of the mix owner. And don't forget the mix was very young - I'm really curious about them when they will be adult...

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

(those who saw the bonitation say they behaved even better than some wolfdogs that already tested bonitation before)

?!? And who saw the bonitation? It was made specially during the camp in Jetrichovice to avoid too many witnesses. I was in Hostivice when Audrey Lupo made the youth presentation and it was so hidden that I even didn't register it. After the happening some people told me that "German Shepherd Dog mix" (as they told me) also made the youth presentation...

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

Concerning HD, Dr Sterc is one of the most severe in the world, maybe it is useless but we still stay with him.

Whose decision is it? It seems to be the reason why Czech Republic have the worsest HD results of all countries. Do you think it helps Czech breeders? If yes than why they want to change it and only the breeding committe is against it?
If you think that only your Czech vet makes right HD-results why you let your puppy owners to go to make second HD in Poland? Why do you make the HD of your own dogs in Italy? Many Czech CzW owners have no money/time to handle like it so they are really injured because their dogs are HD-C and not HD-A from Poland, Slovakia or Italy.....?

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

We also brought Ohnivak who was HDC and doctor in poland said they were really good Xrays.

What results does Ohnivak have? HD-A? You forgot to mention that all dogs whith visible HD had the same result in Poland (it means they are also not HD-free in Poland). For example L'Rocco - (3/4) in CZ and (3/3) in Poland. And don't forget about dogs X-rayed in CZ. They have also different results depending from the vet which makes the judgement.

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

What must we think, one says a dog is healthy and another says he is ill. Who is right? Who can judge them?

There are some guidelines - I think Pavel or Ina wrote about them. There are different levels for HD and general rules to recognise them.

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

However the hybrids are judged buy Sterc as A and B

Hmmm...as far as I know ALL checked wolves were HD-A. So it means Armin brough problems with HD. But it is nothing new - it was well know: if you want to have better HD-results never use GSD (Mix). But in this "experiment" everything was made false...

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

We have the hybrids but we don't have the conditions of the Boarder Guards. This is the difference, but at least we have the register at CMKU. It's importatn to know that the genealogic book is at the ÈKS ( Èeský kynologicky svaz ).
The two books are separate. To monitor the F1-F4 hybrids is and will be difficult, without economical income and without future.

Main question: why did you register them if you don't want to use them for the breed? If they are separated? For a single experiment you can print the pedigrees at home - you don't need to handle them like CzWs...

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

The people that allowed us to participate to this study know and it is difficult to find others.

It is really surprising... I can't imagine any responsible breeder will take part in this experiment as it is. It is a real morass - no rules and at last nobody want to be responsible because if you will use the mixes for breeding with CzW also all these mixes owners/breeders will bear responsibility for it.

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA/Monika

They are not a menace for anyone and for real CSW lovers

Sure - the mixes were not a menace and nobody had something against them. But after you registered them in the Help Book of the Breed Book by Czech Kennel Club they started to be a danger to our breed and the whole story is the best proof for it...

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA

It seems to me that you appreciate a lot the work from Slovaks

Sure. I learned a lot from them... In Slovakia you can still speak with people which were by the setting up of the first CzW Club or some which remember even ealier times... I always appreciate people which work for the breed....not only people from Slovakia.

Originariamente inviata da ANDREA

but why do you think if they worked so well (i have nothing against slovaks) why has thei puppy production decreased so drastically?)

You want to have a honest answer? Here it is: it makes no sense to breed dogs if there are no buyers interested in the puppies. It was hard to sell puppies in SK so many breeders stopped with breeding CzW.
In opposite to it Czech Republic had huge increase of bred puppies in the last years. Why? Because there were many people from Holland, Germany interested in the puppies and what is the most important: Italian salesmen which bought WHOLE litters. So the Czech breeders produced as much as possible because the Italian dealers bought everything - it was no matter if the puppies were nice or not, if they were young or old. If a breeder had problems to sell puppies in CZ he had always the possibility to sell all remaining puppies to IT. And they got nice money for it. Market rules....
Now it changer already: there are enough breeders in Italy, Holland or Germany so only few people import dogs from CZ. Even the Italian salesmen started to breed CzW in Italy instead of importing dogs from CZ. So I think in the next years the number of puppies born in CZ will also decreased. Only good breeders with good dogs will stay on the market - people breeding for money will stop with breeding. Already now it is hard to sell puppies and some breeders gave up and don't breed anymore.
In Slovakia it goes in other direction: there are more interested people than puppies (not only from other countries interested in "Slovakian Wolves" but also directly people from Slovakia) so I think the number of litter will increase soon. Or if we will take in consideration number of litter where Slovakian dogs were used it already increased...
So even in Czech Republic there is huge interest in Slovakian type of dogs. And the announced litters listing are the best example for it.

Originariamente inviata da Monika

Armin's mother is Gerda z PS (PS - means Pohranicni straze, boarder guard) his father comes also from PS Libìjovice ;

Originariamente inviata da Anrea

you say you remember that Armin is not pureblood, don't make me laugh, specify well the names were you get your informations, only this way you can be believable.

Hmmm...no problem. And please don't laught because this point is the best example how the breeding comittee is lying the people in CZ (and now also the members of this forum). So back to Armin:

1) Monika Soukupova (breeding comittee):
Armin is GSD.
Mother: Gerda z PS. Father also German Shepherd Dog from kennel "z Pohranicni straze" in Libejovice. Hard to believe because I can say the father on my GSD-mix Dora is Mickey Mouse and because she has no pedigree you can not say it is not true. The same is Armin. These are just words without meaning....

2) Karel Hartl (breeding comittee):
Armin is a CzW.
Karel Hartl wrote on the paper for registering the Mutara litter: "Armin - Czechoslovakian Wolfdog without pedigree" (if someone is interested I can send you a scan). It is official paper send to CMKU (Czech Kennel Club) which CMKU received on 23.07.2002. The paper is signed by the breeder of the Mutaras - Mrs. Nada Sebkova (breeding comittee). It was the paper which was used to put the mixes into the breed book of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (ok, into "Help registry")

3) Frantisek Hrach (owner of Armin):
Armin is an Mix.
In one of the articles about Armin written for the Czech dog magazine "Pes" ( no. 10/98 ) his owner - F. Hrach writes:

Czech:
"Hned od zaèátku jsem øíkal, ¾e ¹tìnì má hlavu ¹ir¹í, krat¹í ucho,¹ir¹í hrudníèek, trochu jiné oèi, ¹ikmìj¹í. Jedni hádali na køí¾ence, ¾e tam musel být ¹pic, druzí hasky,já pøipou¹tìl podle hrudníku malamuta. Pravda se ukázala a¾ kdy¾ se pøijela podívat dcera majitele fenky-matky ¹tìnìte. Tvrdila, ¾e nìkdy pøed lety tam mìli psa, co nakryl matku ¹tìnìte, køí¾ence z Libìjovic, kde se dìlaly pokusy s èsv".

English:
"I said from the beginning, that the puppy has wider head, shorter ears, broader chest, a little bit different eyes, more slanting. Some people said it is a mix, that there is a Spitz in it, another said a Husky. I thought considering the chest it was [a mix of] Malamute. The true appeared when the daughter of the owner of mather of the puppy came with visit. She told, that many years ago they had a dog, which covered mother of the puppy. He was an mix from Libejovice where the experiments with CzW took place".
So simply said he has no idea about origin of Armin.
This article was published on the forum on the Czech Club pages by Hana Kaufmanova (26.9. 2003, Subject: "Jeste neco k Arminovi" ["Few words more about Armin"]). It was removed together with other posts few days later as being not "politocal correct".



So we have 3 different versions .... but only one is true. Who is cheating? If you are interested just read this topic:

WHO IS ARMIN?

and take part in the funny game: "Please help the Czech breeding Comittee"....

And for all Mutara fans - here are some photos of the "beautiful, wolfish mixes that are better than other CzWs":
Ares Lupo Mutara
Audrey Lupo Mutara
Ave Lupo Mutara