[z Peronówki]

Lot time is gone since the last answer but we have winter, a lot of free time and finally ....... I was able to finish my answer...

Originally Posted by massimo

the placement depends always from the form and competition....

Yes - that's I'm talking about. If we will take an average dog and we show him twice:
- one time in a strong competition here there are only beautiful dogs with almost no faults
- second time in a class where there are only german shepherd looking dogs

On the first dog show our average dog will be the winner and second time it will be last. But there will be also difference in the note it gets - sometimes it is even two degrees. Sure if you have good judge there will be no such huge difference but still I think it will be one degree - for example 'very good' instead of 'excellent'.

Originally Posted by massimo

then NEVER in a dog show the results are "true".

I will say: "they are not true for 100%". Example: if a dog will a dog show where there are for example 100 dogs it does not mean the same dog will win another dog show where there are only 3 dogs... There are so many factors... I know something about this... believe me...

Originally Posted by massimo

Judgement shouldn't depend on competition, just on the dog. The placement depends on competition.

You right. But some dogs are on the border between "excellent" and "very good", between "very good" and "good". And in this case it depends from the competition.

Originally Posted by massimo

Using the "right" type doesn't necessarily mean getting the best results, although Sarka produced some of the best CSW around.

You right - if you use unique dogs sometimes you get "unique" results. Not always good. It is always a little bit risky. But also the reward is much better - if you breed nice dogs with unique pedigrees your puppies are much more precious than (sometimes better) dogs from more exploited stud dogs...

But as for Sarka - it is also very good visible: if we take into consideration number of produced puppies and number of good quality puppies she reached very good results. Because averyge quality of puppies for her kennel is much higher that for some other breeders. And I think it is because she used this dogs...

When we were looking for a puppy for us we were not looking for a kennel which produced the MOST KNOWN dogs - we were looking for a kennel which produced BETTER DOGS. We checked how looks the AVERAGE quality for each kennel.

In the beginning we had in CZ two different options - one kennel was very well known. Second much less. But we checked the stats and:
- the first breeder produced over 120 puppies and only few of them were beautiful. He won a lot but only with his dogs. Sure he had some very important titles but only few dogs were nice - the rest was unter the average level.
- second kennel had much less puppies but there were nice dogs in every litter. And also the average level of quality was much higher. And the most important - also dogs not owned by the breeder won a lot (it was important because some breeders have very strong connections with judges and sometimes they win even if they show GSD-looking CzWs).

We decided for the second kennel of course - only from this breeder we had huge probability that we will get good quality puppy...

Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff

Otherwise, our club is not happy with the bonitation, because they say that a dog, which has done the bonitation, is an attacking dog.

Really?!? I can say - the most dangerous dog in our pack is the only one which do not attacked the decoy during the bonitation. The rest is OK - and there were more problems before the bonitation that after it...

Originally Posted by Pavel

Its a reason, why many people dont understand, whats about we speaking, if say "prepare to bonitation". Its not means to training in dog school only. Dog must be not trained to go to bonitation but must be good socialisated first.

That's the basic point. But to be honest - a perfect socialized dog will not get a good note on bonitation if it is not trained. During the character tests you do not want that the dog is stable and friendly but it has to attack. Shy dog which attack will get for sure much better code that stable dog which do nothing...

Originally Posted by Pavel

I heard some times the stupid idea, that if is dog attacked from figurant, the is the best, when he dont defence self. What creatures want to have such people ? Normally living creature have a survival instinct and self defending instinct. So that if is attacked from other creature, then defending self. Its a basically princip of life.

We are not talking here about natural instincts. Most dogs are for the whole live trained that it is forbidden to attack people even if the dog is in danger. It is the main goal of socialization and biggest part of modern training. So such dogs do not attack the decoy not because there is no 'survival instinct' but because they are trained not to attack in any case...

Originally Posted by massimo

It's true it is not NECESSARY to train your dogs befor bonitation (you were in Lazne with Dvorack and trained him a little, right?).

For most dogs the bonitation test is something totally different. Just imagine: the dog is on a CHAIN, TIED UP, left ALONE. There is a SHOT (not just a loud noice) and a MAN who tries to attack.
So I will say - even if you have good socialized dog it is better to check how your dog will react in such situation. I saw a lot dogs with very good character which didn't passed this test because it was something DIFFERENT. Situation which you will never survive in your life...

Originally Posted by massimo

Shy dogs often don't pass even if trained...

Not exactly. Nothing is perfect and for judging a dog the judge use a type of pattern: if the dog will attack the decoy some judges do not pay any attention that these dogs are just trained but still have the tail between the legs... Also these dogs pass the test. That is the reason why some people say the character test need modernization - it you will add there some socialization exersizes it will be impossible for such dogs to pass this test.
In Poland we have better solution for working breeds - we have a test which is similar for the bonitation test but the decoy is not only attacking the dog but he has also protection sleeve and the check how the dog bites.

Originally Posted by Meisel

And also we were in the Tsjech republic this summer in Lazne at the summercamp,so we did see the dogs you talk about and i dont think that there is so much difference between them,so honestley i dont think we are doing it so bad.

Sure. Thats true and the summer camp was the best example for it - there were more dogs from abroad which passed the exams. The only question is: how many CzW are so stable? How many a able to pass sucht exams?
The question is not: "if there are any" but "how many"...

But back to the main theme:

Originally Posted by of_Mercedes_Dream

If some csw club judge want to come to Belgium for a meeting-bonitation, please let me know. Normally in June 2005 the second meeting will be organised in Schoten (Belgium).

I think there will be no problem for any judge really interested in this breed. It is really good solution to merge the bonitation with any other CzW event: it can be meeting or bigger dog show (maybe a club dog show?). It is hard to invite a judge only for the bonitation but many "gurus" will come with pleasure if he/she will be able to meet more people and see more CzWs...
In the fact we will also willingly come to such meetings with our dogs... Just write date and we will raise a little bit the attendance...