[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

Personally I have a very small female and although she has got Hip displasia even if she didn't I'm not sure if I would have used her. I wonder how many others have the same "criteria".
Not many I think.

No, not many... For such cases the breeders think out their own theories - if they have too small dogs they breed them and tell "I'm breeding very small dogs because small dogs are....". When they have too large and too heavy dogs they breed them and tell the theory "I breed such dogs because wolves can reach even 90 cm and height 70 kg"...
They breed untypical dogs and always have their own explanation...

So are the breeders which do not have any idea how a typical Wolfdog should look like, they have no idea what is written in the breed standard and never saw an European Wolf with their own eyes...

The second group are breeders which will use such female to see what is the problem (of course if the female is "worth" to do it). Sometimes an illness or wrong treatment is responsible for small size. They make "test" litter to see the results. If the puppies are "normal" they can breed with such dog... But it is only an exception...

Originally Posted by massimo

I remember so much critisism about using Cutt who was too short (64,5cm), but he didn't give the majority of "short" sons.
I agree with the critisism that he was used too much, this I agree surely.

I don't think it was the problem... The problem was that the P14 male was advertised as the best male in Italy. It was bred with so many females. And none (almost none) of the puppies were checked if the size is right. See how many puppies are born and only few of them have the bonitation code... can you assure that not the highest has been choosed and other are too small and their owners do not make the bonitation because are affaird that also their dogs will get P14?
I do not say it must be so but not even one litter is bonitated. And bonitation code of ONE dog from each litter is not enough to say if the too small size was inheritated by the puppies....

Originally Posted by rocco

Hmmmm - Margo has a strange opinion but for me it isn't surprice ! I must smile to something what some people are writing here. Nice theories .

Thank you very much for very constructive comments... Maybe you will be able to answers Italian people why shy scared dogs get "balanced" character during the bonitations in Reggio Emilia. Maybe start with this topic:
Bonitazione - 13/6/2005 Reggio Emilia

Originally Posted by massimo

I saw a bonitation made in Slovakia.
The figurante was a female, her "attack" was not really an attack.
She wasn't heading towards the dog but going "away" from it.
She was just waving her stick in the air, not looking at the dog.
I asked Sona how could she judge this "attack" which was really reduculous as an attack.
She replied very elegantly (again I must say nobody can top Sona...) that she will adapt her judgement to the degree of attack.
This means that even a small reaction to the attack would be bad considering the attack was "light".
Similar situation in the bonitation in Italy.
Sona used the same "parameter", adapting her judgement to the degree of the attack.
THIS is SERIOUS JUDGEMENT!!
Now you say Sona's bonitation was not "official" and so will not be considered on YOUR site.

No. You are wrong... I said that even while some people changed the rules in Italy in order to be able to pass with their dogs the bonitation Sona WAS ABLE to judge the dogs according the right rules. And exactly this made some people crazy... They made everything to pass bonitation with shy dogs but Sona is an experienced judge and she changed the "parameters" and the results of the ITALIAN bonitation made by HER are still credible. :P But we also know that is was the reason why she is no more invited to make bonitation in Italy. Right? As the gossips say: she is no more welcome there and now only the same Czech judges are invited because it was not possible to force Sona to judge milder and to give good notes to shy dogs from VERY IMPORTANT KENNELS...

Originally Posted by massimo

Well, I consider the bonitation of my dog (now i'm losing my objectiveness of course) as valid as that of any other dog, because it was done by a great judge (and signed by her too).

Massimo, I know you are angry but you must understand also the point of view of other people. Sure the bonitations are not perfect but the problem with Italian bonitations is rising and rising... Just imagine that a breeder will decide to cover his female with PERFECT italian male. The breeders will make 1000km in order to cover her female. And in the end he will see the male - SHY, SCARED of strange people. What such person should do? Cover his female with dog which is in the fact P14? Ask the owner of the male to pay the money for the trip because the male is not as it should be? Or ask for compensation the judge which made the bonitation because SCARED dog is not Of and P1 so the judge wrote a false information? Who will be responsible for such judgement?
I'm really not talking about dogs which have perfect note but are not curious or not brave enough. We are talking about dogs which get perfect codes but are EXTREMLY shy. Which are running away when they see people. Which are not to handle in a group of people....

Originally Posted by massimo

You are free to take it off your site, but I think the validity of a Bonitation should be decided by experts, not by you.

Who is an expert in Italy? Who is responsible for it? Who quaranty the quality of the bonitation?
Just tell me one thing - HONESTLY: imagine I will make the bonitation by us in Poland. Daiva is a national judge for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. I'm the breeding comitteee member for the 1. FCI group by the Polish Kennel Club. We will get Rona(if she agrees ) to wrote the results of the bonitation. As you can see we have valid bonitation comittee. Now we decide to make bonitation in Poland. We will invite all people. By our friends we will measure the dogs and ALL of their dogs will get from us the bonitation code Axx Of P1 (where xx is the height). If the dog will be shy it would get Axx Og P1 (xx - size; maybe not perfect because it is hard to measure shy dogs but I think the error will be maybe 1-2cm). Other dogs will be also bonitated - I do not like some breeders so I assure you dogs from their kennels will be VERY exact judged by us and ALL faults (maybe even some more ) will be written in the bonitation card...
As you can see MY bonitation will be similar to the bonitation in Italy. Do you think results of MY bonitation should be really taken into consideration? Do you want to tell me I really have the right to make it (officialy I have the right, I ask if I have the right to make SUCH bonitation from the ethical point of view)?

Originally Posted by massimo

By the way, during that bonitation a dog was judged as P3 by Sona....the judgement was not accepted and done again by another good Judge but in another year...and the result was the same. Same dog, same judgement, different bonitation.
"Good judges??"

But the judgement must not be the same... Dogs develop - with 15 months the dogs look different as with 4 years. Also the character can change. Even in Slovakia and CZ you can repeat the bonitation one time...

Originally Posted by margo

sure, but being a member of the italian Club I would like to see the components of the comittee make good proposals, maybe publishing them, not just complaints...it's offencive for those components of the comittee who have worked hard and well.

OK, it is the question to Navarre. I don't know how it is going on in the Italian Club right now... But I'm curious...