[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

Questa regola non la conoscevo, e vorrei chiedere a qualcuno più esperto di me se è vero.
NON POTEVANO ESSERE DATI VIA SENZA PEDIGREE??

I don't know how it looks in Italy - maybe there are different rules and more things are allowed. But if you are FCI-breeder you MUST sell the puppies with pedigree. For example if you will have litter in Poland (or Germany) without pedigree and the Kennel Club will know about it you can be suspended for few years or you can be thrown away from the Kennel Club members and all your dogs would be signed as "not allowed to register in FCI-countries".

Similar situation is in CZ - if Marcela would sell the puppies without pedigree I can guarantee you that some "very nice friendly people which care more for other people than fo their own yard" (which only wait to harm other breeders) will send the note to the Czech Club and ask for suspendeding her...

Originally Posted by massimo

domando solo se era proprio impossibile evitare di andare contro le regole del club...da parte di chi le regole del club dovrebbe farle rispettare.

Massimo - it is a pitty but it is so - if you have enemies you have problems...

Look: Mutaras were not CLCs but they get the pedigrees and were registered. Many FCI and CMKU rules were broken, many Club rules were broken. Do you think that a least ONE of the people which broke the rules was judged? Do you think that a least ONE person of the people responsible for the Mutara-gate get any consequences? No...

There is also a case where similar puppies (to the litter of Gejsa and Dat but in that case it was not mistake but a PLANNED litter) were born. The female had no bonitation. Hartl went with some breeding comittee members to the home of the breeder and make "bonitation" by this female when the puppies were already 6 weeks old... The puppies get pedigrees. But it was an exception - for something like this you need to have friends in right places...

As you see it would be better to start making "order" with people which breake the rules and make frauds CONSCIOUS. For me it is also unforgivable that Marcela (and her MISTAKE) will be judged on the same way as was judges a Czech breeder which was three times lying the Club board, club comittee and also even her own friends (you know the story...).

And if there is no justice, if there are not the same rights for all, and if there is no mildness for mistakes than the rules are wrong...

From my point of view the mistake should be judged because there must be a guarantee that pseudo-breeders will not start to breed also their dogs saying "it was mistake". But for me the puppies from this litter should get the pedigrees in Czech Republic...

They had no chance to get them so...

..now Gejsa is mine. She has breeding right here. She will have OFFICIAL litter in Poland. The puppies will be sold here. In the fact the Czech Club can DO NOTHING against Marcela following the rules and regulations because I can buy ANY Czech female and register her here. All I must follow are the FCI rules and rules by Polish Kennel Club. And it has been done so...

If I would be on Marcela's place I would make the same. Why to sell interesting puppies without pedigrees if we need precious puppies. There are so many "wrong" litters, so many worthless dogs (from the genetic point of view) that it would be stupidity to loose these puppies which can valuable for the breed...

Originally Posted by fabryd

Anche a me sembra assurda la scelta che uno deve fare in questo caso, ma i "buchi legislativi" esistono...

It is not "buchi legislativi"... In Poland we have very strict rules accoring the breeding. There is many paper work and all must be registered, checked and you must have papers for everything... papers for covering, litter, tattoos, litter check, written contract with the stund dog owner, with the puppy buyers...
BUT...people are people and make mistakes. We had similar case in our kennel club with an owner which imported a great male from Holland (Labrador). The dog escaped and covered one female - the kennel club court decided to give the puppies the pedigrees... Now the puppies are pretty know on dog shows, the male get already breeding rights and everything is correct... And it is OK: sometimes people make mistakes, but breeding is for people - nobody is perfect... Rules must be followed but anyone can make A mistake...
In the fact sometimes it would be better to forbid some people to breed their dogs because they make it wrong even if they keep to the rules of the Kennel Club...

By the way: many of the Czech dogs do not have "breeding rights" according to the polish rules... So in this case I can talk laud: many Czech people breed dogs which would not the pedigrees by us... According to the Slovakian rules almost none of the Italian, German, Czech or Polish dogs do not have the breedings rights... Do you think they tell that f.e. Italians should not breed their dogs? No... If they say something it is about health (and breeding dogs without HD) and character (and breeding shy dogs)...

Originally Posted by fabio..

Premesso che Alistar la bonitazione poteva farla tutte le volte che io stesso ero presente in cechia o in slovacchia in estate e non la ha mai fatta.
Questo non avrebbe risolto il problema di uniformare le bonitazioni?

No, I was not talking about it... We have Slovakian youth bonitation, Czech youth bonitation and Polish bonitation. I know that in Italy Alistair would also get A62,5 Of P1...
....BUT...
...I want to have the OFFICIAL Czech or Slovakian bonitation... When we took Alistair she was 2 years she was behaving like a wolf... now she is callmer and more confident that many so called "working" dogs... But to be honest I'm an ambitious person - i don't like to have A bonitation with INDIFFERENT code (it would be no problem) but I want to get the Of as my other dogs... Because of the puppies we didn't made the bonitation this year in Pozna but must wait till next year...

Originally Posted by fabio..

The sapete that the landlady of the female makes part of the technical committee that operates the bonitazioni? There was need to risk the cucciolata one? It could not make it before?

Of course not... not all breeder wait only to breed their dogs and not for all it is the only thing which counts... It has been written many times that usually it is better to wait with the bonitation. The minimum age is 15 months but many people wait till 2 years. Expecially with the males... But also females with 15 month old CLC are not an ADULT CLCs...
Marcela didn't planned the puppies so fast so why you wonder why she didn't made the bonitation in the beginning of this year? As you can see she even didn't tried to make it - so it is not the case that Gejsa didn't passed the bonitation... I would also not bonitate my dogs so early if there would be no other reason...

Originally Posted by fabryd

Probabilmente ora il club, oltre a decidere se e come sanzionare Marcela, ci metterà anche una pezza sopra per stabilire esattamente cosa fare in questi casi ed evitare che altri in futuro seguano lo stesso esempio... non so... suppongo io...

It is big problem... for me it should be judged from the other point: ethics. What is worser; what should be punished?
Breeding dogs with high inbreed (real incest)? Breeding dogs with HD? Huge inbreed on HD-dogs? Breeding ill dogs? Breeding too young females? Covering all possible "willing" females with males which have genetic problems withouth saying about the problem? Breeding lines with heart problems? Breeding lines which are already "genetically" shy?

Or people which made A mistake? ONE mistake? Or forgot to sign a paper? Or buy a formular? Or forgot to write a data?

Originally Posted by massimo

Semplicemente guardo la situazione in modo critico, avendo però sentito parlare MALISSIMO del club italiano, degli allevatori Italiani considerati come "far west" senza regole.
E' vero, in moltissimi casi è così...ma la regola "pagliuzza/trave" dovrebbe valere per tutti...

Sorry but I see no reason to talk about Marcela. She is not responsible for anything. She made no mistake. She have not broken ANY rule. It was just an ACCIDENT. If she will be judged it will be done only for SHOW and to fall silent all people which want to crucify her even if their own hands are dirty... So is it...

It is nice to talk about it when there are no rules which must be followed. As you see for you the situation is unimaginable... but I will say it different:

Massimo, you have a stud male. Some of you also. Imagine that a Czech breeder is asking you to cover his/her female (which has bonitation and Czech breding rights). You make it... you see no problem. After all you get know your dog was not on the breeding list (the breeding comittee didn't allowed the breeder to cover his/her female with your dog). The breeder broke the rules and the puppies will not get the pedigree. It means YOU produced puppies without pedigrees - it means YOU broke the FCI rules. Now it follows - for sure you have some enemies. They write to the FCI President - "Mr. President, the person XXX produced puppies without pedigrees". The office check it and... it is true. They suspend you and your dog for (for example) 5 years...

What you will say about it? Would you agree it is OK? Would you say: yes, I made the mistake, and I will follow the duty given by FCI?