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gaulirmorn · 20-05-2004, 14:13

Hi All,

Something Margo said has been really bugging me for the past few hours and it’s starting to drive me crazy!

Maybe I AM crazy, but I think we should be looking at trying to get the scientific name of the Czech and Saarloos breeds updated by the FCI. (I’m sorry, but the information I have used to illustrate my point is geared towards the Saarloos, though only because I couldn’t find the details for the Czechoslovakian so easily. The theory should pertain to both breeds though.)

At present the Saarloos is registered as ‘Canis lupus x familiaris’; I am finding it impossible to discover what the Czechoslovakian wolfdog is registered as, but I reckon it is probably the same.

I think this is where the problems stem, because if re-classified as ‘canis lupus familiaris’, both breeds would be simple dogs, and therefore beyond the interference of Kennel Club and DEFRA.

Ergo, they would not need a licence.

Sounds simple; probably nigh on impossible; but do you think it would solve some of our problems, Paul?

This is what is bugging me…

The inception studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde states quite categorically that wolves were used to create the German Shepherd breed! The studbook created by Stephanitz lists entries SZ#41 to SZ#76 showing that four pure wolves were used in the original pedigree for the German Shepherd dog!

I quote ‘Mores Plieningen SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line’

As Margo states, little time passed between the creation of the German Shepherd and Saarloos breeds, just THREE decades in fact.

From the information that I have been able to find it would seem probable that, like the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos breeds are now, the German Shepherd would have begun life scientifically classified as ‘canis lupus x familiaris’ (wolf/dog cross), NOT ‘canis lupus familiaris (dog)’! The breed would HAVE to have been named so because as I have already stated, the GS was the result of selective breeding between wolf AND canine! So if we accept the truth – then the GS started life as a wolf-cross, and is therefore NO DIFFERENT to the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos!

The date I found for the foundation of the German Shepherd breed is 1899, and the United Kingdom Kennel Club accepted the breed in 1919, a mere 20 years later...

Amendments were made to the standard of the German Shepherd on 28th July 1901 and 17th September 1909, and the UKKC accepted the breed before the next amendments took place in 1930.

Now, this is VERY significant, for it PROVES without a shadow of doubt that SOMEWHERE from 1899 to 1919 the German Shepherd ‘evolved’! The UK KC changed it’s consideration of the breed from that of a ‘wolf cross’ – canis lupus x familiaris to that of a dog - canis lupus familiaris.

From 1919 the GS was accepted as just a dog!

Surely then, this MUST set a precedent that the UK Kennel Club considers any wolf/dog breed to be a plain and simple dog after a period of 20 years?

The German Shepherd standard could legally be amended because no further wolf DNA had been added for two decades. Dogs mature and breed far quicker than humans, and the canine authorities of the day must have realised that after 20 years of pure GS breeding, the DNA would have evolved enough for it to be recognisable as that of the German Shepherd breed.

Now, consider the Saarloos wolfdog which has been labelled as ‘canis lupus x familiaris’ since it’s inception in the 1930’s. This breed was last injected with wolf DNA in the 1960s, which means it has been classified as a wolf-cross for TWICE the length of time that the German Shepherd was!

Is this not an injustice?

Even if we say that the MINIMUM time that can pass for a wolfdog to become a dog is 20 years the reclassification of the Saarloos breed to ‘canis lupus familiaris’ is TWO DECADES overdue!

And the Czechoslovakian wolfdog last had wolf blood added in 1983 - 21 years ago!

Surely this means that the DNA of the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos breed must now be that of pure dog breeds, and that they need to be reclassified just as the German Shepherd was?

Given this information, the Kennel Club and DEFRA have no right to place these breeds under the dangerous animal licence…

And, maybe THIS is the angle we need to use?

20-05-2004, 14:13	#27
gaulirmorn Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 17	Hi All, Something Margo said has been really bugging me for the past few hours and it’s starting to drive me crazy! Maybe I AM crazy, but I think we should be looking at trying to get the scientific name of the Czech and Saarloos breeds updated by the FCI. (I’m sorry, but the information I have used to illustrate my point is geared towards the Saarloos, though only because I couldn’t find the details for the Czechoslovakian so easily. The theory should pertain to both breeds though.) At present the Saarloos is registered as ‘Canis lupus x familiaris’; I am finding it impossible to discover what the Czechoslovakian wolfdog is registered as, but I reckon it is probably the same. I think this is where the problems stem, because if re-classified as ‘canis lupus familiaris’, both breeds would be simple dogs, and therefore beyond the interference of Kennel Club and DEFRA. Ergo, they would not need a licence. Sounds simple; probably nigh on impossible; but do you think it would solve some of our problems, Paul? This is what is bugging me… The inception studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde states quite categorically that wolves were used to create the German Shepherd breed! The studbook created by Stephanitz lists entries SZ#41 to SZ#76 showing that four pure wolves were used in the original pedigree for the German Shepherd dog! I quote ‘Mores Plieningen SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line’ As Margo states, little time passed between the creation of the German Shepherd and Saarloos breeds, just THREE decades in fact. From the information that I have been able to find it would seem probable that, like the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos breeds are now, the German Shepherd would have begun life scientifically classified as ‘canis lupus x familiaris’ (wolf/dog cross), NOT ‘canis lupus familiaris (dog)’! The breed would HAVE to have been named so because as I have already stated, the GS was the result of selective breeding between wolf AND canine! So if we accept the truth – then the GS started life as a wolf-cross, and is therefore NO DIFFERENT to the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos! The date I found for the foundation of the German Shepherd breed is 1899, and the United Kingdom Kennel Club accepted the breed in 1919, a mere 20 years later... Amendments were made to the standard of the German Shepherd on 28th July 1901 and 17th September 1909, and the UKKC accepted the breed before the next amendments took place in 1930. Now, this is VERY significant, for it PROVES without a shadow of doubt that SOMEWHERE from 1899 to 1919 the German Shepherd ‘evolved’! The UK KC changed it’s consideration of the breed from that of a ‘wolf cross’ – canis lupus x familiaris to that of a dog - canis lupus familiaris. From 1919 the GS was accepted as just a dog! Surely then, this MUST set a precedent that the UK Kennel Club considers any wolf/dog breed to be a plain and simple dog after a period of 20 years? The German Shepherd standard could legally be amended because no further wolf DNA had been added for two decades. Dogs mature and breed far quicker than humans, and the canine authorities of the day must have realised that after 20 years of pure GS breeding, the DNA would have evolved enough for it to be recognisable as that of the German Shepherd breed. Now, consider the Saarloos wolfdog which has been labelled as ‘canis lupus x familiaris’ since it’s inception in the 1930’s. This breed was last injected with wolf DNA in the 1960s, which means it has been classified as a wolf-cross for TWICE the length of time that the German Shepherd was! Is this not an injustice? Even if we say that the MINIMUM time that can pass for a wolfdog to become a dog is 20 years the reclassification of the Saarloos breed to ‘canis lupus familiaris’ is TWO DECADES overdue! And the Czechoslovakian wolfdog last had wolf blood added in 1983 - 21 years ago! Surely this means that the DNA of the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos breed must now be that of pure dog breeds, and that they need to be reclassified just as the German Shepherd was? Given this information, the Kennel Club and DEFRA have no right to place these breeds under the dangerous animal licence… And, maybe THIS is the angle we need to use?