[Margo]

Originally Posted by Norky

To be honest: this saarloose gene is very strange that appears just in the 2nd and 3rd generaton, because I have never seen Crying Wolf dog which would have sarloose alike. So maybe the problem is coming from somewhere else.

Please read again what I wrote about the red colour and how it is heritated! It is the most basic rule of the dog coat colour genetics. It is not STRANGE - it is normal. NORMAL is that the red color appears first later (when two genes meet) because it is RECESSIVE!

Originally Posted by Norky

And to be honest . if you read back thios nice forum chatting, you musn't be wondering that Edit doesn't want to cooperate.

There are more CW owners which want to make the DNA tests. Are they also "sent by devil"? It is so bad that people want to know the truth? Some people really care about it - it is not because they want to fight with any breeder. They just want to be sure that dogs which they bought as CsW are really CsW. And the breeders want to know if the dogs they plan to use (who have CW blood) are real CsW.
Believe me - I will be the most happy person if everything will be cleared and it will be showed that the dogs are purebreed. It was enough damage done to our breed last time. We do not need one more mess.

Originally Posted by Norky

And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary at teh age of 2000's, when Galiba and Flash born????????

Read what I wrote ONE MORE TIME - I don't think that Galiba is a mix. It is simple - he has born before the Sarloos was bought by CW.
BUT 1) I see there WAS a Saarloos living by CW, 2) Edith LAID that the dog can not be father of the puppies because he is sterilized and 3) she didn't agree to the DNA tests even when Lorry was prepared to pay for them.
Maybe for you it is normal behavior of a breeder. Not for me.

Originally Posted by Norky

Or some slovakian and czeh breeders are stupid and can't see and buy saarloose mix???

I was in Slovakia and I know what the breeders there think about it. Believe me - you don't want that I repeat the opinions about CW which I heard there. Czech Republic is not different. Everybody involved in the breed knows what is told during the meetings but never published officially. It is the reason why none of the esteemed breeders belong to the group of CW friends.
BUT remember - it is not about blaming the dogs! Maybe we do not agree with the style of breeding but it do not influence the breeding. If CW has nice and healthy dogs they will be used. The problem now is that there are serious doubts about their origin and pedigrees.

Originally Posted by Norky

something ele : could you tell me why would she make saarloose mixes with an old typed, homosigota red (it means couldn't bring other coloure) saarloose? It is totaly different type like csw.....and I'm still asking how could it happened that the saarloose alike dogs are coming just in the 2nd and 3rd generation...but not born in the kennel Crying Wolf.

Sorry but I think you missed all the topics written here. The red Wolfdogs were born in a litter where BOTH parents are Crying Wolf dogs. The parentage test was done and it confirmed that the parents are the mentioned CW dogs. Do you want to say that Lorry is a liar?

What with the white/lilac puppies - should we believe that Hanka painted them using photo shop? Do you want to say that Hanka is a liar?

What is with the masks which appear by this "line". Are they caused because the owner love to paint their dogs? Are they liars too?

Originally Posted by Norky

Also question : is Edit idiot to come to mateing , pay studfee and than let the saarloose to fuck her female??????

I never suggested that it was done intentionally? I think it is possible that she even had no idea that it happen. Till the red puppies were born.
Look, we all own Wolfdogs and we all know how clever they are. And we have photos where we can see the kennels were the dogs live by CW. I'm sorry but even not very strong and not very cleaver Wolfdog will have no problem to brake out of them. The fences? I will not leave here dogs alone not even for 5 minutes. The photos convinced me that there can be something true in all the stories told last time he...

Anyway I joined the group of breeder who apply the rule of "good CsW breeders": not to use any dogs coming from kennels which breed Saarloos and CsW at the same time...


But let's go back to the topic and let's make it different - we have three main things:
- red puppies born out of two Crying Wolf dogs
- white/lilac puppies born out the CW female
- Saarloos masks appeared by some CW offsprings

For every part are responsible different genes. So to exlain it with "mutation" we must agree that we have here 3 different mutations. Hard to believe because it would be not mutation but a miracle.

Do you have any other SCIENTIFIC explanation for it? I will even leave by side the other things like the "passive" Saarloos-alike character and the problems with wide set hanging ears which some people mentioned before.
Let's try to exlain only the three things.... With no personal attacks - just pure facts....

PS. I really understand your rage as all dogs which you own are Crying Wolf dogs. But believe me - also for you it will be the best solution if the official DNA tests will be done and we will finally end the CW-story. Genes do not lie. If the parentage will be officially confirmed - GREAT!
But till now it looks so - Edith do not want to cooperate with the owners of her puppies, the official clubs seem not to be interested. Private people can not do anything even if they want...

So at the moment we have three possible casses:
1) some of the CW dogs are Saarloos mixes and the Saarloos mixes spread among our breed
OR
2) the CW dogs are pure and their owners are charged unfounded
OR
1+2) some CW dogs are mixes and the mixes spread among the breed and there are also pure CW dog whose owners are charged

Every possibility is not OK - it is why we must finally SOLVE it (do not mix it with "HIDE it").