Foundation dogs in a pedigree & genetic effects

Gypsy Wolf · 27/05/2010, 01h27

Hi all,
I am studying pedigrees to try to learn as much as I can about our breed (at least until the English translation of the Karel Hartl book gets here!!!) and I see some heavy breeding on certain dogs and wonder how much effect that has on the current generation's inheritance... for instance, in Luna's pedigree (she is listed as Aurora del Mango Galomy Oaks) in her 7th and 8th generations, there is a LOT of breeding on Rep z Pohranicni Straze. I am not great on the math regarding pedigrees, but with so many "bricks" by that dog in Luna's "foundation" I would think she technically, gets a good amount of genetic material from Rep, even though he is further back?
How far do vlccak breeders study the foundation genetics? I know, in some breeds, heavy line-breeding, even far back, is considered when evaluating pedigrees. I also know quite a few breeders who really only look at the immediate generations...
Would love to hear opinions/ideas/thoughts...

Rona · 27/05/2010, 09h48

From what I've heard, Rep was a very good looking CSV, extremely wolfish and with perfect proportions. He was used a lot in Slovakia to standardize the breed appearance. Before Rep working drive was the major breeding criterion. Nobody in the army was interested what the dogs looked like as long as they passed their exams and performed OK on the borders .

As everything in life, the strong inbreed on Rep had it's positive and negative effects. The positive - there was high number of dogs that looked similar, so it was possible to register the breed. Negative - serious destructions of the "lines" that breeding committees in the countries of origin are now trying to re-establish. Just to be on a safe side in case of a mutation or spreading of some genetic disease.

This is a very simplified answer to your question, I’m sure the issue was much more complicated and there are people who know more about it.

yukidomari · 27/05/2010, 15h36

Well, in response to the genetic effects..

It's not surprising to me that unfortunately while there was a small selection of wolves used in the foundation of the breed, overall the breed's health is affected by largely GSDs, which IMHO is one of the most health-plagued breeds there are.

Don't think that back then there was the possibility of limiting DM, and while there is the possibility now, many GSD breeders don't even test for it because it's become so embedded in all lines that it wouldn't mean much for their breeding choices.

While its entirely possible that wolves may have bad hips, a part of me says that bad hips in Vlcaks can largely be attributed to their GSD lineage, which popular stud syndrome may or may not have excerbated.

As always, linebreeding and tightly breeding small groups establishes 'type' and can be helpful to eliminate certain unwanted traits, yet can also stabilize unwanted traits into a breed as well, sometimes unknowingly until generations later.

It's nothing special to Vlcaks, I'm sure you know, though. It's all part and parcel of the art of purebred dogs.

Mikael · 27/05/2010, 18h46

Aurora del Mango Galomy Oak ( Luna ) is to young to be in elf’s statistic software, but yes she is 8,7% Rep z as I understand on (ALL) generations, mathematically.

You can see some info here in the database >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.php?op=modload&name=WolfdogDB&file=wright& lan=eng&wid=12489&maxdepth=99

She has very low COI % on 5 generations in the WD database it say 2,1% on 5 g.
( The recommended value on 5 g is maximum 10% as I anderstand )

You can look for more info in the softwere on Hronsek and Anthea...

The CsV statistic tool >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...gi-bin/form.py

Best regards / Mikael

elf · 28/05/2010, 21h44

Hi,

You can still use the tool with the parents and + operator, you need to enter 9143+9076 in dog ID, for exemple: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...id=9143%2B9076

A.

Vaiva · 29/05/2010, 17h25

Citation:

Envoyé par yukidomari

It's not surprising to me that unfortunately while there was a small selection of wolves used in the foundation of the breed, overall the breed's health is affected by largely GSDs, which IMHO is one of the most health-plagued breeds there are.

Well, the health problems we know now in GSDs might be new enought and not affect the GSDs 50 or more years ago

It seems like a good topic to study

27/05/2010, 01h27	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Date d'inscription: February 2010 Localisation: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Messages: 252	Foundation dogs in a pedigree & genetic effects Hi all, I am studying pedigrees to try to learn as much as I can about our breed (at least until the English translation of the Karel Hartl book gets here!!!) and I see some heavy breeding on certain dogs and wonder how much effect that has on the current generation's inheritance... for instance, in Luna's pedigree (she is listed as Aurora del Mango Galomy Oaks) in her 7th and 8th generations, there is a LOT of breeding on Rep z Pohranicni Straze. I am not great on the math regarding pedigrees, but with so many "bricks" by that dog in Luna's "foundation" I would think she technically, gets a good amount of genetic material from Rep, even though he is further back? How far do vlccak breeders study the foundation genetics? I know, in some breeds, heavy line-breeding, even far back, is considered when evaluating pedigrees. I also know quite a few breeders who really only look at the immediate generations... Would love to hear opinions/ideas/thoughts...

27/05/2010, 09h48	#2
Rona Distinguished Member Date d'inscription: August 2004 Localisation: Kraków Messages: 3 509	From what I've heard, Rep was a very good looking CSV, extremely wolfish and with perfect proportions. He was used a lot in Slovakia to standardize the breed appearance. Before Rep working drive was the major breeding criterion. Nobody in the army was interested what the dogs looked like as long as they passed their exams and performed OK on the borders . As everything in life, the strong inbreed on Rep had it's positive and negative effects. The positive - there was high number of dogs that looked similar, so it was possible to register the breed. Negative - serious destructions of the "lines" that breeding committees in the countries of origin are now trying to re-establish. Just to be on a safe side in case of a mutation or spreading of some genetic disease. This is a very simplified answer to your question, I’m sure the issue was much more complicated and there are people who know more about it. __________________

27/05/2010, 18h46	#4
Mikael Scandinavian Member Date d'inscription: December 2007 Localisation: Stockholm Messages: 1 089	Aurora del Mango Galomy Oak ( Luna ) is to young to be in elf’s statistic software, but yes she is 8,7% Rep z as I understand on (ALL) generations, mathematically. You can see some info here in the database >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.php?op=modload&name=WolfdogDB&file=wright& lan=eng&wid=12489&maxdepth=99 She has very low COI % on 5 generations in the WD database it say 2,1% on 5 g. ( The recommended value on 5 g is maximum 10% as I anderstand ) You can look for more info in the softwere on Hronsek and Anthea... The CsV statistic tool >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...gi-bin/form.py Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916 Dernière modification par Mikael ; 27/05/2010 à 21h17 Motif: ...

28/05/2010, 21h44	#5
elf Member Date d'inscription: October 2006 Messages: 766	Hi, You can still use the tool with the parents and + operator, you need to enter 9143+9076 in dog ID, for exemple: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...id=9143%2B9076 A. __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

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27/05/2010, 15h36	#3
yukidomari Moderator Date d'inscription: March 2010 Localisation: Los Angeles CA Messages: 847	Well, in response to the genetic effects.. It's not surprising to me that unfortunately while there was a small selection of wolves used in the foundation of the breed, overall the breed's health is affected by largely GSDs, which IMHO is one of the most health-plagued breeds there are. Don't think that back then there was the possibility of limiting DM, and while there is the possibility now, many GSD breeders don't even test for it because it's become so embedded in all lines that it wouldn't mean much for their breeding choices. While its entirely possible that wolves may have bad hips, a part of me says that bad hips in Vlcaks can largely be attributed to their GSD lineage, which popular stud syndrome may or may not have excerbated. As always, linebreeding and tightly breeding small groups establishes 'type' and can be helpful to eliminate certain unwanted traits, yet can also stabilize unwanted traits into a breed as well, sometimes unknowingly until generations later. It's nothing special to Vlcaks, I'm sure you know, though. It's all part and parcel of the art of purebred dogs.