HD results

[Hanka]

Hello friends. I have question. Do you belive to all results of HD what are publiced here on wolfdog? What do you mean about central database (gallery) of these fotos? Scanned X-ray fotos? Everybody can see it and measure it.
Is it possible to make good databese from X-ray fotos? Or is it out from our technical posibilites?

[massimo]

Some time ago Margo said that only HD with official results (sent to her) would be posted.
I'm not sure this has been applied yet.
If she confirms this will be done, then it's up to us to believe in Margo's site or not...so the belief passes from the HD results to Margo.
I have no reason not to believe her, once she confirms it.

She also said that litters with dogs with HD results would be advertised, and this is actually happening today.
massimo

[woland77]

Great Hanka, in Italy is possible to ask the photo at the central, i agree with this idea. Ever we don't know if HD A, form Czech is the same of HD A of Italy or Poland. With the photo the breeder can valutate real condition, and comparate!

[Hanka]

Yes Massimo, I know. But I think, in some countries is measuring very "soft". So, for me is much much better to see foto by my own eyes. I want use only males, what have result, what I can belive......I hope you know what I mean.

[massimo]

oh yes...now i understand what you mean...if Official results should be trusted, so neither WD or Margo but the actual HD examinator.
Sorry I'm no vet and I don't feel I have enough experience.

[wolfin]

Hanka, but who help this rtg foto in WD galery? You be expert for HD examination? or Massimo? or Woland? In Lithuania rtg foto have only vet and LKD not owner. In this case we not cann send this rtg foto to this galery only results.
I know, Margo thake to data basa only rtg results when have hes copy, not worts but mas send skan results with pedigree.
If You think about this " not polish HD A is this same like Italian or Czech HD A" mas about this send to FCI and speak oficial about bad others veterinar who not cann make this HD exams.
I think IF vet have licenzion for examination and this be FCI OFICIAL licenzion all is ok. Or You think only CZ wets be the best in world?

[Mikael]

I think it is a very bad idea...

First I do not se the point at all, if you have a official HD result it will be added, and if a buyer or breeder wonts to se the x-ray they can ask for it...

If you are not satesfied whit a C/C you can send the X-ray to FCI...

Second the risk for bad quality and for cheating is to big...

Even today kennels are trying to putt up unofficial results as officiall
Whit a system like that it will get worse

Best regards / Mikael

[massimo]

Originally Posted by wolfin

You be expert for HD examination? or Massimo?

oh no..not me!!
I can help you with wine if you want! (or female beauty...)

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes Massimo, I know. But I think, in some countries is measuring very "soft". So, for me is much much better to see foto by my own eyes. I want use only males, what have result, what I can belive......I hope you know what I mean.

Yes, it is known that a grade A from the Czech Republic that is more than a grade A from Italy.. i agree with you,is better than the breeder, especially when using non-secure lines on HD, it should choose the stud-dog based on the photo about x-ray!

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes Massimo, I know. But I think, in some countries is measuring very "soft". So, for me is much much better to see foto by my own eyes. I want use only males, what have result, what I can belive......I hope you know what I mean.

So if you are interested in a concrete stud, you can contact his owner directly and ask

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Or is it out from our technical posibilites?

I think is possible!

on this link, sorry is italian, is explane how to measure Norber-Olsson degrees measure

http://www.notonlyblack.org/health/d...orberg_olsson/

[wolfin]

Nice reklam but not place in forum make this for self's breed dog.
And if have this type thema, I say who I think :
but I not see rtg skan in Yours web site. and I not know this is bite Yours dog or not in this foto

[Hanka]

Yes Massimo, I wrote, I want give it there, but in this moment I have not so good scanned foto. I must try do it on some better machine. Maybe it is technical problem for this kind of gallery. It was in my first question: Is it technically possible to do this "gallery" or database, where will be only scanns? I wait some answers from other people. In past I tried to do some scanns. Some was good, some was too dark.....maybe we need for it more light fotos.....Or- how we can do it better?
Daiva- yes. But it was not my first idea. My first idea was to be maximally open to other breeders, to give them all info what they want to know. I want to do the same (to other pople) like I like. If I want know all about my favorite males, I must offer the same. Not secrets about defects of my dog.
What is important to know about stud male? (If I have not chance to see him "live"?): body, teeth,charatcter,HD result, health. If I can see it , on fotos or on video, great and thanks about it.

[wolfin]

Hanka, Yes this be good idea, but sorry not all vet cann make exam rtg but You cann. this be very interesing
Cann I please exam this dogs, and other too cann this make
nr.1


nr.2


nr.3

[Mikael]

There is still some problems whit the wolfdog photo gallery, wrong dogs in the wrong place... No big problem, but what if a X-ray photo end up in the wrong place not to easy to se that it is the wrong scans

And I do not nether think Margo and crew is interested in ALL the work it will bee, way not just add your scans on your own websites

Best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

I don't believe in all results, specially when I see dogs from a not nice line for hips making only A results, but its inevitably, studing the bloodline of the dog you can have a small idea about this and take more care.
The main problem is:
It will not be impeached by the photo of the X-ray when its possible to make a fake with Photoshop!

What I really wonder about is of the Elbows results, nobody make this exam and when its made its possible to find even breeders using affected dogs, as if Elbows displasy was not important ( when in truth the problem is bigger than the Hips one), and yes, the breed is affected with this problem, we only don'thave many positives because nobody test! it's really a problem and will turn the things difficult if people don't start to get aware, test the dogs and took out of breeding the affected dogs.

I have at home ruler and scribing compass. I am breeder longer time and I know something about it.

And with it you will not be able to judge if the degree is correct or not as far you don't have the assurance that who do the foto don't turn the camera more for one side to another one, as far you don't have the assurance the owner who make the scann put it properlly in the scanner and as far you can't see the properlly place of where you may put the "compass" for meassure the angle.
if have something you will not be able to judge by fotos mostly will be the angles of X rays.
The X rays exams don't depend only of the angles but of some details as well.
But here on this topic we have a nice test then you as experienced breeder for sure will be able to evaluate the fotos that Daiva show here.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I don´t see any sense in posting the photos knowing that even not specialized vets are sometimes wrong in judging the degree in about 2 grades. As Paula wrote there are several points that go into the HD-result.
Looking at the x-rays shown here I must say that - if they are the original one - two of them would have been refused the judgement because of not fullfilling the quality standarts of the German VDH-judges.

There is an easy solution to that problem, like for Dwarfs there is a genetic test now awailable for HD, inveted by a German institut and verified on German Shepherds. They now start to verify it for other breeds and the waiting list is long but I will arrange for it. My problem is, as I wrote before in this forum without reaction, I need 500 CSW that have official results, half of them free, half of them with HD. It is impossible to get this amount only in Germany so please, if you and/or your breeding club is willing to help me send me a message. It makes no sense for me to even start asking if I am not able to get those dogs.

It has been shown that even in breeds with very low incidence of HD like Belgium Shepherds there is an astonishing amount of carriers, what means that if you know the genetic status you can avoid combinations that will result in bad HD-offspring. Every breeder here will agree with me that this will be a great gift.
They are working on test for Epilepsy and ED as well, maybe I could arrange something on that too.

Ina

[Vaiva]

If someone really wants his dog's rtg scan to be published, maybe they can browse the picture like a photo of one's dog If it is ok and possible

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

There is an easy solution to that problem, like for Dwarfs there is a genetic test now awailable for HD, inveted by a German institut and verified on German Shepherds. They now start to verify it for other breeds and the waiting list is long but I will arrange for it. My problem is, as I wrote before in this forum without reaction, I need 500 CSW that have official results, half of them free, half of them with HD. It is impossible to get this amount only in Germany so please, if you and/or your breeding club is willing to help me send me a message. It makes no sense for me to even start asking if I am not able to get those dogs.

Ina

I will support you Ina, but I think 500 sounds like to many for are breed...
way so many ??? I think Dwarf DNA test was made by only a very few dogs...

is it not possible to make this DNA test whit (just) 200 dogs ???

And I think we better send the X-ray’s to and not just the official results,
so that there be no mistakes...

Can you ask if we really need 500 dogs and if it is possible to do the ED DNA test at the same time ???

Do they wont all kinds of results, A, B, C, D or do they just wont A and D ??? or maybe A and C results ???

Very best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I will support you Ina, but I think 500 sounds like to many for are breed...
way so many ??? I think Dwarf DNA test was made by only a very few dogs...

is it not possible to make this DNA test whit (just) 200 dogs ???


Can you ask if we really need 500 dogs and if it is possible to do the ED DNA test at the same time ???

Very best regards / Mikael

Becase different of Dwarfism, HD is poligenic and its the main problem, in easy words, when you need only one carrier of Dwarfism for validade the test, for a poligenic illness you will need a lot of, for mark all responsible genes for the illness and so, turn the test possible.
I will not be surprised if with 500 they will need more dogs.
Make a test for ED can be even more complicate, I wonder if it already exist.

Originally Posted by Mikael

And I think we better send the X-ray’s to and not just the official results,
so that there be no mistakes...~

Commonly, when you officialize the results the X-rays stay with the fondation/college, as not all people ask for a X ray copy or ever make photos of it, I don't think it will be possible.