handling of health problems

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Due to the discussion yesterday and Mijkes new post, with which I totally agree, I would like to get some opinions.

First, now I communicated with some people I regret that I even answered to Monika and forced her to tell names, I do and did apologize for that.
My motivation was that I was extremely fed up with the kind of people that always seem to need to blame somebody, mostly with wrong accusations.

They ruin the name of kennels, a lot of gossip is done behind backs not only openly here, and they prevent more responsible people to speak openly about occuring problems and make the prevention of problems close to impossible, at least very difficult.

Communicating with two people I had to realize that the dwarf problem is much more spreaded than I realized it was. The dogs I new of before weren´t very close related to our kennel what was the reason, together with having no problems of this kind, why I always wanted to do the bloodtest but there was always more urgent matter to do before, we have been extremely buisy the last year. Now I got my kick in the ass and will test our dogs in breeding.

And that is the reason for my post here, I am sure that very many people don´t realise how close the problem is to their own dogs. Though I know the problem of naming dogs only too well and of course will respect the wish to stay quiet I am not really sure if this is the best way to go. I know only too well out of own experience how awfull those gossip-spreaders are but on the other side I think more dogs would have been tested till now.

Though I truly respect the right of free speach I more and more think that it would be better to exclude people that proofed to be not able to use this right in a responsible way and misuse it for accusations out of forums like wolfdog.org. We need this forum for international coordination and information, it is misused to discredit people by a very few, in the English part by two people. That makes it impossible to use it to open information and discussions. Though most of us including me are not innocent of talking about others there is a difference in quality in making wrong accusations or asking "innocent questions" with the goal to miscredit persons or a kennel, implying there is a problem that is hidden, to for example asking why a dog is not x-rayed in its own country or why special pairings have been made. The letter can be explained, the explanation can be accepted or not but there are true facts to talk about.

So I would be interested in your thoughts about this matter. I don´t have to decide anything - and don´t want to, of course I will respect the decisions made by the people in charge. I am just curious about other opinions.

Ina

[Mikael]

I agree !!!

But I think the test results are to be official, just like whit the HD results.
Not in the forum, but in the database...

After all, dwarf is not as bad as HD and it is easy to avoid to get a dwarf puppy by testing your dogs before breeding.

Thanks for your post Ina

Very best regards / Mikael

[Hanka]

Yes Ina, you are right. But:
I will write here on wolfdog: "please send me fotos of your dwarf puppy, which was born in your kennel and write me names of parents. I will collect this info and I will write it on wolfdog and everybody can read it".........
How many breeders will inform us? I think nobody.
It is very difficult HOW we can handle it....
I wrote yesterday: czech club try to arrange test for czech dogs and owners will can do it and czech club breedcomission can "lead" breeding a little. We will not give together two parents-carriers. But not everybody on the World can read who is carrier, because it can ruin some kennel.
it is a pitty in other countries don´t exist breedcomission with infos about this dogs. But it is not only problem of dwarfism.....
I can write you: exist MUCH carriers in this moment in all states, but only sometimes we can see dwarf puppy. In czech was not dwarf puppy many years. (info what we have, it can´t be 100% info).
Dwarfism is problem, but not so big. For me is bigger problem HD, shy wolfdogs, mix with saarlos....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Yes I know, the reason is that people that are honest and talk openly will be blamed and the not honest ones that don´t care show themself of as the better breeders.
On the other side we now have in Germany the pairing of two sure carriers with nontested bitches that might be carriers, because people simply didn´t realize the size of the problem.
Dwarfism is a desease that is the easiest form to controle, recessiv with available test. But people will decrease the genetic pool if you show results openly, I know you are right in that point.

I don´t know a solution for this but it is the reason for my question why we tolerate over long times persons that blame others for things that they couldn´t avoid or things that are simply not true. That over and over again start attacks for their own personal reasons not out of curiosity.
This creates a athmosphere of fear and silence what is not in interest of our breed.

[saschia]

Ina, people are very irresponsible animals. I mean, there are even human pairs who are both proven carriers for some genetic disease (like cystic fibrosis), even ones that already have sick children and still they do reproduce. They do this to their own children! How can you stop them from doing it to the dogs?

I agree that doing the tests would be the best solution. But two conditions must be fulfilled so that it would be all fair - that most of the dogs are tested, and that the tests are reasonably priced. And such situation is almost impossible, unless it is compulsory... Imagine that I test my bitch and she would be a carrier. If there are not enough tested studs, then I have a problem - do I say openly, that my bitch is a carrier and the pups may be dwarfs - and have problems selling the pups, or do I stay quiet? Or do I stop breeding with my bitch until I find a tested, healthy, non-related male with good hips and exterior compensating my bitch's - which might mean forever? Or do I pay for the test of the selected male and pray for good results? Every one of these possibilities is bad, discriminating and especially hard if I live in Eastern Europe, which means that I have to pay for most things as much as Western Europeans while earning only half (if I am lucky) of their incomes? And selling the pups also for half of western prices, if I don't want to sell all pups out of the country?

[Nebulosa]

Spread gossips...
Before were common people ask about what happened, or what the breeder X or Y have done, its really not problem as questions like that can be explaineable for every good breeder, who read can believe in it or not, this way also help us to know who is doing something for the breed and who not, also as work as warn for some people who only wants breed only looking money, or doing the wrong thing, they can be asure that in the small world of CzW people are looking what you're doing independant of where you live. By one side, its good.

But, its completly different of what for exemple Monika's do here, she comes, spread some gossips which she never was able to proove and so run away without reply any questions. If you show her lies, she comes back, make personal attacks and use the excuse of "i'm judge" or "i'm 20 years breeder" or "I was club member" and so on for try to convince most naive people to believe in her.

I'm talking particulary in this case, because even without mean names, was clear that was about her that we're talking here also.

In internet this kind of person is called troll, and comonly it get banned in the firsts posts, but the main diference of wolfdog.org is that mostly people know each other personaly, have already saw each other in real, if dont, one day probably will see, or will see a dog from this person, that's why I simply had ignored this internet rule for long time, only looking to the extremal cases.

The main problem appeared for sure when this same user had start to try blame owners for have carriers of Dwarf genes and spread gossips about it, to tell you the truth, I entered today for measure what was talked about it in the topic, and probably ban this person because of it.

The first step for end with genetic diseases, is know about them and be able to talk about it freely, without fear of be attacked because you have or had used a descendant of the dog in question without know about the problem, look that its different of repeat the same error even after know it.

I'm pretty used to moderate some foruns, but this one was really diferent for me because of the fact that the users here are not only " users" but people which breed or have a exemplar of this breed, which we know or will know personaly, its change something and that's why I where soo benevolent even with trolls.

So, if it be the will of the users, I can start to follow the common internet rules of "good sense" as they should be used, for moderate this forum, as its done in the majority of the others internet forums.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I can write you: exist MUCH carriers in this moment in all states, but only sometimes we can see dwarf puppy. In czech was not dwarf puppy many years. (info what we have, it can´t be 100% info).

You see - it is exactly the result fo breeders fights... I know at last about 2 dwarfs born in Czech Republic int he last 2 years and some other cases as "suspicious"...
It is the problem with "information" flow and the reality...

First - just think how many puppies die in every litter. I know by some kennels we remove sometimes 50% of the puppies because they die before they get registered. Sometimes we remove whole litters. I do not say they all are dwarfs but it means we do not have a LOT of information about the resons of puppies dying.

Second - breeding comittee members are also breeders and they ALSO use (or can use) such information for their personal "wars". Look what Monika is writing - many of the accusations base on the information which she get when she was breeding comittee member. So it is obvious that many breeders will hide the problems because they will be affraid to be attacked.

Do you remember the case with the breeders who had dogs with missing testicles? He was marked as "cryptorchidic" breeder ONLY because he was honest enough to show their dogs on the bonitation when they get P14 because of the missing testicle. After it he was attacked by other breeders (saying he is bad breeder) how ALSO had dogs with missing testicles but they were "clever" enough to hide such dogs and do not allow their owners to go with their dogs to make bonitation...

Do you want other example - I publish all HD-results of my dogs. Even the worser one. After Bolton had HD-C I heard other Polish breeder saying that the only "displatic" dog in Poland live in my kennel. It was told by breeder who is using not HD-tested lines and hiding information about really bad results in her line.

Some years ago we received HD-results from pone Italian kennel. Good one were for publication. Worser only for our information. Do you know why the person was forced to do this? Because of the another Italian breeder who was blaming her for breeding dogs with HD. It is funny because exactly this person bred many dysplatic dogs - of course he was putting on internet only the good results of his dogs. I would say more - he was putting BETTER results that the dogs really had.
I was shocked when exactly by the person who was attacking other italian breeders wer realized how many dogs with bad HD and ED results were hidden and how many results we had to fix because the breeder wrote they are HD-A but in the fact they were HD-B or HD-C....

Such hypocrisy is very common by many breeders and I could write tens of examples why many breeders hide some information. Of course there are some breeders who do not affraid to write about the problems in public but if we like it or not miost problems are and will be hidden and known only for a very small initiated group of breeders.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Dwarfism is problem, but not so big. For me is bigger problem HD, shy wolfdogs, mix with saarlos....

Yes, there are many "problems" which we should follow...

It will be easy to deal with the mixes - so far the spread in the breed because many people have no idea they have not-purebreed dogs. I know that in the new database and mixes - not REAL wolfdogs - will be marked as "NOT FOR BREEDING". Such warning will get EVERY dog who has a mix in the pedigree. Even if the mix will be in 20 generation before. We will let the lines to die out.
The breeders and owners of mixes are also banned by Wolfdog - their dogs are not put on the stud dog list, their litters are not advertised and their kennels are not on the kennel list.


About the health problems - since we have more and more infromation we "discover" new problems. Of course many of them exist and will exist forever. Cryptorchidism, epilepsy, heart problems will appear because they appear in every population. We track such cases and collect the information.

For example heart problems are more common as many of you think. But still it is not "typical problem" for this breed. It means only that it is good idea also to get your dog tested and just not to breed with dogs with such problems.

The same with epilepsy - from time to time there are cases in different "lines" and in different countries. But again: write about such cases, do not use "ill" dogs fro breeding. It is all what can be done bacause we do not even know what kind of epilepsy it can be (sometimes it is caused by accidents, sometimes it looks like genetic - there are many possible factors).

With HD and ED it is already more clear. Of course worser HD appear and will appear in any kennels. But there are already lines where problems with the hips are much more common. Remove this lines? Of course not - nobody ask it. But expecially such lines should be more tested - and the dogs with worser result sshould be removed from breeding without looking for a "backdoors" (vet who will get better results to a dicplatic dog so the dog can be used for breeding).
Also no responsible breeder should use a dog from "ED-line" if the dog is not tested for ED... And for sure not to make it with a female comming from similar line (known for similar problems).

If we keep to this rules the problems will not dissapear (they will never dissapear as in EVERY population there will be small percentage of ill dogs which are "ill" because of the mutations and "bad luck") but the problems will not spread in the breed....

[wolfin]

You speak about dwarf, yes this is too important, but Hanka (and others), You I think can my thake and info about broken tail. in this year in CZ You mas see dogs in bonitation with this tail and maybe know moore about others dog, who have in pedigree stamp " not breed" with broken tail. Dogs with this are and in Italia, but ... ufortunely going to breeding. I think and moore dogs are with this bad problem. Or now we all "hunting" only dwarf, and not interesing moore about HD ED, PRA epilepsia and others problems

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10745

[Hanka]

yes Daiva, we can open these topics: dwarfism, broken tails, HD,ED, epilepsy, lost teeth, shynnes, not correct bitting, mixing between saarloses, Mutaras......
And our population will have only 10 wolfdogs
yes, "broken tail" is problem, I think in much countries nobody control it on bonitation and in breeding is much dogs with it.
We can only inform all judges they must touch every dog on bonitation.
is much potentional problems, we know it.
But in the end we can be happy, because our breed is health. Look at german sheepdogs

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

yes Daiva, we can open these topics: dwarfism, broken tails, HD,ED, epilepsy, lost teeth, shynnes, not correct bitting, mixing between saarloses, Mutaras......
And our population will have only 10 wolfdogs
yes, "broken tail" is problem, I think in much countries nobody control it on bonitation and in breeding is much dogs with it.
We can only inform all judges they must touch every dog on bonitation.
is much potentional problems, we know it.
But in the end we can be happy, because our breed is health. Look at german sheepdogs

but when have this name topic, this ONLY help for us all. Or not?
But we mas speak about this. I think You too not have 100 % healty dog like and others, alls dogs have this same grand- grand- grand- parents, and all mas speak about this. If dogs not have problems in reality this does not mean this problem be in future.
I only please, people when know dogs who have this BROKEN tail please send my private info if not want say this in forum. And realy not believe in this when my say " this not exist".

[wolfin]

and p.s. this is very good for us.
Mijke work with dwarf,
Ina -with HD genetic test,
I -with broken tail
others with...
and in this method we can have very good info data basa about problems in one place.

[Hanka]

You can have info from czech bonitations on czech club page. results are there after every bonitation.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by wolfin

but when have this name topic, this ONLY help for us all. Or not?
But we mas speak about this. I think You too not have 100 % healty dog like and others, alls dogs have this same grand- grand- grand- parents, and all mas speak about this. If dogs not have problems in reality this does not mean this problem be in future.
I only please, people when know dogs who have this BROKEN tail please send my private info if not want say this in forum. And realy not believe in this when my say " this not exist".

Thanks Daiva!

Personal don't know this problem in Holland with CsW, but only in my other breeds. But when I discover here a CsW with this problem I will inform you!

In every breed their will appear more and more genetic health defects, because of the small gene pools. (for example because of the "Founder-effect"; when a superior male was used in almost all family groups)

That is why in some breeds it is already obligated by the breed clubs to do all available DNA tests before breeding. And some breed clubs requires blood samples of all stud dogs and their offspring. (so they can use it in future for new DNA tests for the breed.)
Genetic specialists and universities are telling more and more that the possible inheritance of diseases can become more clear when the health info of a breed is linked to pedigrees.

Some breeds did start with international databases with all test results, health info and all death causes.
But when breeders don't want to publish test info and health info (because they are afraid for "bad name") it is only short time thinking for a breed. :
(and in my opinion only foolish commercial thinking)
In years will become clear how great this "behavior" was for the future of some breeds......
How many breeds will survive the next 50 or 100 years???

It would be much better when breeders don't tell any longer fairy tales about the great health of a breed to future buyers and interested people.
On BBC and in Holland were already programs with info about awful diseases in some breeds. And I hope there will come more such info programs!
And only when breeders will more cooperate and honest share test and health info, we can save breeds for future.

It is a pity that even here on this informative site we can't discuss "open and honest" about health problems, test info, how to solve problems, because of total useless accusations to each other.

We have to realize that most writers here "know" each other and understand what is going on.
But we also have a lot of "only readers" and they maybe can think because of all these discussions that something is wrong with "honest breeders" who speak about problems.

Maybe it is a possibility to start first also a special breed/stud dog forum (just like the administrator forum) on this site (for registered breeders and stud dog owners) where we can speak and discuss more open without fear. And later on we can inform everybody.

I have more info and questions then only dwarfism. And till now I only can share and speak about this with people I trust (because I don't want to harm any breeder in a public forum)

For example only a personal one: When I did have a kind of disaster with my last litter (all pups dead in last week before birth ), I did speak about this open and honest in the Dutch forum. I did make several tests with my female and did let make special investigation on all dead pups, but there was not any reason found. But I would like to have info of other breeders who did have bad experiences with a litter without the reason was found.
And till now I only did share all the details and info with a few breeders that I know and trust. And from them, I did receive personal also honest info about "strange births" and "dead pups".
But it would be great if more breeders could share such info without fear for bad name in public!


I know personal for example also CsW's with EPI, Epilepsy and DM and I am sure there will be for sure more in this breed! Just like there will be (or appear) other genetic diseases.
And now we have still the option to be silent, keep our eyes closed, or speak honest about this and share the info and try to avoid more health problems.
Later on it is maybe to late......

[Hanka]

Yes, epilepsy is I think more often than dwarfism. Our breedcomission watch it too.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Due to the discussion yesterday and Mijkes new post, with which I totally agree, I would like to get some opinions.

First, now I communicated with some people I regret that I even answered to Monika and forced her to tell names, I do and did apologize for that.
My motivation was that I was extremely fed up with the kind of people that always seem to need to blame somebody, mostly with wrong accusations.

They ruin the name of kennels, a lot of gossip is done behind backs not only openly here, and they prevent more responsible people to speak openly about occuring problems and make the prevention of problems close to impossible, at least very difficult.

I think the topics are not so bad... Of course many of us do not like the fighting; the personal wars. But I think such topics are very usefull... Because thanks to them the true can be published and anyone can convince themself that many "news" told by some people are just fairy-tales invented to ruin names of rival kennels...

What is the problem: some gossips and lies are told by people who are claimed to be 'known' and 'responsible' owners/breeders/judges. It is told 'behind the back' to other breeders.
And if the person XXX who is well know judge and CzW breeder tells that kennel YYY has specific health problems MANY people will believe it it. Why not? The person XXX ia an experienced breeder... Expert... she knows a lot so it must be true....
In such case the attacked breeder can not defend himself. He and his kennel suffers even if the "news" are real lies.

If the lies and gossips are published (like on this forum) it start to be visible that it was told by person XXX only to harm the rivals.

Also for me the topics were usefull... What is funny - the bigegst lies are told by people who have the biggest prblems in their own countries...
The lies about German kennels are spread by a German breeder who was removed from FCI and VDH because of breeding mixes.
The lies about Polish kennels are spread by a Polish breeder who has the biggest problems to follow the FCI breeding rules.
And all this lies are repeated by a Czech breeder who has huge problems in Czech Republic because of promotion of the non-breed CzW and implicated in many other "gates".

The lies are much worth as is the worth of people who are telling them - it means NOTHING. But it can be showed first when the lies are published and the hypocrisy of the people spreading them is made obvious to all...

[hanninadina]

The lies about German kennels are spread by a German breeder who was removed from FCI and VDH because of breeding mixes.


Hey Margo, do you mean me? What happens with you? You were a such nice persons. The last month your are fighting on different places with different people. You spread csw in poland so you have to live with the fact that people will have a different opinion than you have. Why you cannot live with it?

I am not removed from FCI, who told that? I did not breed mixes and I will never breed mixes, because after that one litter in 2008 I will never breed again, because from my personal point of view there are not enough people who are able to care right for a csw. And of course if you ask me, do you like more csw or american wolfdogs, there is only one answer the american ones! And what can I say all people who get to know them think like me. That is my opinion you can now remove my statement as you often did it, Przemel or Nebulosa because you do not accept different opinions.

Everyone who knows me and the people I am with who own wolfdogs will know from which ill csw who died I wrote. Monika of course know that male csw because she got to know him in summercamp. No lies, all true! And that line is from Eichhorns Zlata Platz breed.

People ask me to answer to your accusation Margo. I am not into in wolfdog often because I have not that much time as some people seems to have.

And Margo, if you want I will send you all what was written between vdh and me.

But be realistic, there are only 7 % of all dogs in germany organized by vdh. So this is a very small amount of all dogs in germany. Who cares what the vdh is thinking?

I wish that you calm down and don´t fight useless fights. I love Myla Crying Wolf and U´Tala z Molu Es. Without them I never would have Noomi and Nuno the most beautiful topstars in wolfdogs in europe.

Christian

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Bla bla bla, Monika and Edit is good and Ina and Margo is bad... Bla bla blaaaaa... / Christian

Hmmmmmm... OK ok ok, we get it, you like Mutaras and Inbreeding

And Ina did not sell you a puppy... we know !!!

/ Mikael

[hanninadina]

Mikael, what kind of "originally post from me" is that one you posted? I never wrote such a post "Edit and Monika are good....".

In the opposite to you I know all these people personally and I don´t live only in internet but drive to poland, czech republik, spain, holland, france, canada, the us, to meet wolf and wolfdog people. So I can make a realistic picture from everything and not only from listening to people who are champion in forum and miss real life.

Christian

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

In the opposite to you I know all these people personally and I don´t live only in internet but drive to poland, czech republik, spain, holland, france, canada, the us, to meet wolf and wolfdog people. So I can make a realistic picture from everything and not only from listening to people who are champion in forum and miss real life.

Christian

And you think this and your last post has to do whit "handling of health problems" Hmmmmmmm... your mental health maybe

Yes I travel to, and therefor I know one can not drive to US and Canada if you do not drive a boat

Regards / Mikael