Killing a stereotype.

draggar · 25-03-2010, 18:08

My wife noticed that someone tried to register their "Czechoslovakian wolfdog" with USA (United Schutzhund clubs of America) but they denied their aplication stating that they consider wolf hybrids a dangerous breed and would not allow them in USA.

I'm thinking when the breed CsV - but the same can go for the Saarloos and the Lupo Italiano) starts to become more popular that we'll see more and moreof this and even them thrown in with "wolf-hybrid", "dangerous dog" legislation.

Educating people won't be easy - generally people are very stubborn in their beliefs but I'm thinking of one thing that could easily sway public opinion with the breed. People won't care that 90% of the lines are from German shepherds nor will they care that spitz breeds are far more wolfy in temperament than vlcaks are (the wolf is in there for the physical build and stamina - the pack mentality, intelligence, trainability, etc.. are from the GSD side).

Don't call them wolfdogs (honestly, that just screams hybrid to most people - despire "wolfhounds" are perfectly acceptable). Stick with the names, Vlcak, Saarloos, and Lupo Italiano. I seriously think the person mentioned above would have been accepted if they called it a Czechoslovakian Vlcak or just a Vlcak.

Thoughts on this (mainly for people in the US since the breed is still primarily unkown here).

yukidomari · 25-03-2010, 19:55

Generally people are silly. People will believe that a husky is a 'wolf hybrid' if you throw out some insane nonsense like "she's got 5% wolf blood" and sound technical about it.. and it's totally made up. I don't think most people even really know what a wolf or a fox looks like - otherwise, it's really weird that people say a friend's Shiba is a "fox" and that our Lilith is a "wolf"..

I honestly don't even think that the Vlcak looks much like a wolf either, the head (the stop and some other things) itself and the ears give it all away.

But back to your topic, I prefer to call the dogs Vlcaks too. When I talk to people who don't know anything about CSVs I stick with Vlcaks. "Wolfdog" is a generalized term here in the states and 99% of the time it's people who are either actually illegally breeding wolves to dogs, or they have some husky mixes that they're marketing as "wolf" dogs. Unfortunately for Vlcaks, that's what they're going to be associated with when the word 'wolfdog' is mentioned and in both cases it's not a good ethical place to be.

'Wolfhound' like "foxhound" means that the dog hunted wolves, which apparently wolfhounds did so well that they went extinct in that area..

I think it'll be exceedingly hard to get a name like 'wolfdog' to not be associated with, well, wolf hybrids. That's like naming a breed 'mutt dog' and then telling people 'no, but it's really not a mix.' .. Just my two cents.

draggar · 25-03-2010, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Generally people are silly. People will believe that a husky is a 'wolf hybrid' if you throw out some insane nonsense like "she's got 5% wolf blood" and sound technical about it.. and it's totally made up. I don't think most people even really know what a wolf or a fox looks like - otherwise, it's really weird that people say a friend's Shiba is a "fox" and that our Lilith is a "wolf"..

Funny you should mention that - we had a Finnish Spitz before and most people thought she was a fox - and the funny thing is that most were acceptable of that!

Then they get really wierd and sometimes ask if she's some fox-dog hybrid (I didn't even know those two species were genetically comaptible!). Of course some of these peope are the same people who think our malinois are coyotes or coyote mixes.

Mikael · 25-03-2010, 20:46

It is a Wolfdog but not a Hybrid, it is a dogbreed but not just a dog

BTW, only UK and FCI use the name Wolfdog on the Standard, AKC use Vlcak just like Sweden and Finland. And as I understand CZ use "Vlčáka" and SL use "Vlčiak" which means Wolfdog

Best regards / Mikael

GalomyOak · 25-03-2010, 22:58

It's the reason I asked for the name change, originally, with the AKC. The biggest thing in tackling laws is getting a definition of what a "wolfdog" is. The American Humane Society defines them as anything after F5, any dog that would be imported to the US today would very likely be F7+. Verbally representing a dog as a wolf mix could get you in trouble in some places, so I never do, unless I know it is a person I trust. "Wolf Hybrid" has been beaten down (since the dogs are not "technically" hybrids) to become synonymous with wolfdog. Good publicity, and very careful communication will be key to the slow and steady progression of the breed, the fact that the AKC recognizes them as a dog breed period, is an advantage. Negative publicity is what really scares me - one child getting bitten, or animal getting attacked here and making it to the news - and it will be a dark day for our breed in the US...

soniakanavle · 26-03-2010, 04:35

Well, but the breed IS a wolf/dog cross.....

Which doesn't mean it's dangerous of course, but I don't think trying to cover up the fact isn't the best idea, then inexperienced people will end up buying them thinking it'll act just like a GSD or another normal dog then end up with a crazy wild animal in their home when they don't know how to train it right. [I used to work at the SPCA and see lots of wolf hybrids get abandoned cause people didn't know what to expect and they would usually euthanize them because they couldn't adopt them out again. So sad.

]

And anyway, 'Vlcak' just means 'Wolfdog' in Czech, so any Czech-Americans will still know what they truly are.

I'm going with what Marcy says, good publicity and the right people involved in the breed to get them off to a good start in the USA, no matter what their name is. I know it'll be hard cause most stupid Americans are afraid of wolves, but everyone who meets my CsV are very interested in the breed and their history and want to pet him and take photos of him so I think they have a good future over here in this country. [I hope!!]

I'm proud of his heritage and isn't that why we all fell in love with them cause of the wolf in them??

Funny story actually, German Shepherds are on the 'Breed ban list' here in Portland OR, [for some stupid reason] so I had a way harder time finding a place to rent with my GSD than my 'Czech Wolfdog' lol.

yukidomari · 26-03-2010, 05:04

All dogs are technically wolf hybrids down to the littlest Chihuahua or the biggest Mastiff. They just lost count of what generation it is. I personally don't think it does the breed any favors by emphasizing it, though IMHO.

PERSONALLY speaking I liked the aesthetic side of the breed initially.. who wouldn't? But I don't care if they have had wolf in them recently or not.. I chose them over other dogs solely because I liked their temperament too and the whole package, regardless of their history.

Sonia, if you worked in the SPCA, you would know how many sibes and sibe mixes are in the nation's shelter every day.. there is no dog breed that is 'normal'... all breeds have their specific needs, drives, wants, and special care. That includes the most 'family friendly' or 'first timer' dogs here in the states like Golden Retrievers (which besides in the states are seen as a very field-bred, drivey breed). Go on petfinder and see how many people fail to even care for America's most popular breed..

Inexperienced people will buy the dogs they think are cool regardless of the name.. Sibes, for ex. again, have the misfortune of being very attractive, handsome, 'wolfy' (prick ears, double coat, roughly reminiscent colors) dogs. And they are cursed with having not the easiest temperaments to live with for the average person. For even the slightly practiced eye, of course we can tell which dog is a sibe or a malamute or an alaskan, and which is a CSV. But to the regular person they're all roughly the same.. it would break my heart to see CSVs as frequently as I see sibes in the shelters and rescues and how many people, wrong people, would like to have a CSV because it's a 'hardcore' WOLFDOG! or a 'cool' dog to have.

Perhaps it's my area that makes it all the more relevant, but here every week there is some news of a fighting ring broken up, and regularly you see exactly the wrong type of people to own any type of dog, owning the latest 'it' dog for the tough guy image. In the 70s it was the Dobe, now it's the Pittie (or pit 'type'), and here and then some guys who've managed to get their hands on some Cane Corsos. Sad. Sad all around.

Now I've lost my point and am rambling a bit.. part of the reason I like the lesser known breeds is exactly that - they are lesser known, at least around here, and it hurts my feelings less because I don't see them exploited or ill-taken care of.

I wish and hope with all my heart that the CSV in the future will be one of those oddities of recognized dog breeds that are oddly not that popular, like Beaucerons or Keeshonds. It would be sad if they ended up where tons of other handsome breeds are, though, like GSDs, Goldens, Sibes and Malamutes.

25-03-2010, 18:08	#1
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	Killing a stereotype. My wife noticed that someone tried to register their "Czechoslovakian wolfdog" with USA (United Schutzhund clubs of America) but they denied their aplication stating that they consider wolf hybrids a dangerous breed and would not allow them in USA. I'm thinking when the breed CsV - but the same can go for the Saarloos and the Lupo Italiano) starts to become more popular that we'll see more and moreof this and even them thrown in with "wolf-hybrid", "dangerous dog" legislation. Educating people won't be easy - generally people are very stubborn in their beliefs but I'm thinking of one thing that could easily sway public opinion with the breed. People won't care that 90% of the lines are from German shepherds nor will they care that spitz breeds are far more wolfy in temperament than vlcaks are (the wolf is in there for the physical build and stamina - the pack mentality, intelligence, trainability, etc.. are from the GSD side). Don't call them wolfdogs (honestly, that just screams hybrid to most people - despire "wolfhounds" are perfectly acceptable). Stick with the names, Vlcak, Saarloos, and Lupo Italiano. I seriously think the person mentioned above would have been accepted if they called it a Czechoslovakian Vlcak or just a Vlcak. Thoughts on this (mainly for people in the US since the breed is still primarily unkown here). __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

25-03-2010, 19:55	#2
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Generally people are silly. People will believe that a husky is a 'wolf hybrid' if you throw out some insane nonsense like "she's got 5% wolf blood" and sound technical about it.. and it's totally made up. I don't think most people even really know what a wolf or a fox looks like - otherwise, it's really weird that people say a friend's Shiba is a "fox" and that our Lilith is a "wolf".. I honestly don't even think that the Vlcak looks much like a wolf either, the head (the stop and some other things) itself and the ears give it all away. But back to your topic, I prefer to call the dogs Vlcaks too. When I talk to people who don't know anything about CSVs I stick with Vlcaks. "Wolfdog" is a generalized term here in the states and 99% of the time it's people who are either actually illegally breeding wolves to dogs, or they have some husky mixes that they're marketing as "wolf" dogs. Unfortunately for Vlcaks, that's what they're going to be associated with when the word 'wolfdog' is mentioned and in both cases it's not a good ethical place to be. 'Wolfhound' like "foxhound" means that the dog hunted wolves, which apparently wolfhounds did so well that they went extinct in that area.. I think it'll be exceedingly hard to get a name like 'wolfdog' to not be associated with, well, wolf hybrids. That's like naming a breed 'mutt dog' and then telling people 'no, but it's really not a mix.' .. Just my two cents. Last edited by yukidomari; 25-03-2010 at 20:07.

25-03-2010, 20:46	#4
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	It is a Wolfdog but not a Hybrid, it is a dogbreed but not just a dog BTW, only UK and FCI use the name Wolfdog on the Standard, AKC use Vlcak just like Sweden and Finland. And as I understand CZ use "Vlčáka" and SL use "Vlčiak" which means Wolfdog Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

25-03-2010, 22:58	#5
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	It's the reason I asked for the name change, originally, with the AKC. The biggest thing in tackling laws is getting a definition of what a "wolfdog" is. The American Humane Society defines them as anything after F5, any dog that would be imported to the US today would very likely be F7+. Verbally representing a dog as a wolf mix could get you in trouble in some places, so I never do, unless I know it is a person I trust. "Wolf Hybrid" has been beaten down (since the dogs are not "technically" hybrids) to become synonymous with wolfdog. Good publicity, and very careful communication will be key to the slow and steady progression of the breed, the fact that the AKC recognizes them as a dog breed period, is an advantage. Negative publicity is what really scares me - one child getting bitten, or animal getting attacked here and making it to the news - and it will be a dark day for our breed in the US... __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

26-03-2010, 04:35	#6
soniakanavle Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Blanco, Texas Posts: 81	Well, but the breed IS a wolf/dog cross..... Which doesn't mean it's dangerous of course, but I don't think trying to cover up the fact isn't the best idea, then inexperienced people will end up buying them thinking it'll act just like a GSD or another normal dog then end up with a crazy wild animal in their home when they don't know how to train it right. [I used to work at the SPCA and see lots of wolf hybrids get abandoned cause people didn't know what to expect and they would usually euthanize them because they couldn't adopt them out again. So sad. ] And anyway, 'Vlcak' just means 'Wolfdog' in Czech, so any Czech-Americans will still know what they truly are. I'm going with what Marcy says, good publicity and the right people involved in the breed to get them off to a good start in the USA, no matter what their name is. I know it'll be hard cause most stupid Americans are afraid of wolves, but everyone who meets my CsV are very interested in the breed and their history and want to pet him and take photos of him so I think they have a good future over here in this country. [I hope!!] I'm proud of his heritage and isn't that why we all fell in love with them cause of the wolf in them?? Funny story actually, German Shepherds are on the 'Breed ban list' here in Portland OR, [for some stupid reason] so I had a way harder time finding a place to rent with my GSD than my 'Czech Wolfdog' lol.

26-03-2010, 05:04	#7
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	All dogs are technically wolf hybrids down to the littlest Chihuahua or the biggest Mastiff. They just lost count of what generation it is. I personally don't think it does the breed any favors by emphasizing it, though IMHO. PERSONALLY speaking I liked the aesthetic side of the breed initially.. who wouldn't? But I don't care if they have had wolf in them recently or not.. I chose them over other dogs solely because I liked their temperament too and the whole package, regardless of their history. Sonia, if you worked in the SPCA, you would know how many sibes and sibe mixes are in the nation's shelter every day.. there is no dog breed that is 'normal'... all breeds have their specific needs, drives, wants, and special care. That includes the most 'family friendly' or 'first timer' dogs here in the states like Golden Retrievers (which besides in the states are seen as a very field-bred, drivey breed). Go on petfinder and see how many people fail to even care for America's most popular breed.. Inexperienced people will buy the dogs they think are cool regardless of the name.. Sibes, for ex. again, have the misfortune of being very attractive, handsome, 'wolfy' (prick ears, double coat, roughly reminiscent colors) dogs. And they are cursed with having not the easiest temperaments to live with for the average person. For even the slightly practiced eye, of course we can tell which dog is a sibe or a malamute or an alaskan, and which is a CSV. But to the regular person they're all roughly the same.. it would break my heart to see CSVs as frequently as I see sibes in the shelters and rescues and how many people, wrong people, would like to have a CSV because it's a 'hardcore' WOLFDOG! or a 'cool' dog to have. Perhaps it's my area that makes it all the more relevant, but here every week there is some news of a fighting ring broken up, and regularly you see exactly the wrong type of people to own any type of dog, owning the latest 'it' dog for the tough guy image. In the 70s it was the Dobe, now it's the Pittie (or pit 'type'), and here and then some guys who've managed to get their hands on some Cane Corsos. Sad. Sad all around. Now I've lost my point and am rambling a bit.. part of the reason I like the lesser known breeds is exactly that - they are lesser known, at least around here, and it hurts my feelings less because I don't see them exploited or ill-taken care of. I wish and hope with all my heart that the CSV in the future will be one of those oddities of recognized dog breeds that are oddly not that popular, like Beaucerons or Keeshonds. It would be sad if they ended up where tons of other handsome breeds are, though, like GSDs, Goldens, Sibes and Malamutes.