What is an interesting pedigree?

Vaiva · 29-05-2010, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Today its more and more difficult to find litters with interesting pedigrees like that.

I am sorry for the offtopic, but speaking about "interesting pedigees" not only in our breed makes me wonder...

Just a new topic maybe... But still - what do the forum members consider an "interesting pedigree"?

Nebulosa · 29-05-2010, 20:54

Nice idea for a new topic, so, I'm really curious to know what people think about it.

elf · 30-05-2010, 19:01

My two cents...

In additions to "healthy lines", some dogs are very interesting because of the diversity they are carrying and they can bring into the breed. As we saw for exemple for Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor---, which belong at the moment to the very top of interesting dog regarding diversity. One can use mean kinship coefficient to have an idea of the level a dog is interesting (regarding diversity), quoting John Armstrong: "A conservation biologist would consider the individual with the lowest mean kinship to be the most genetically valuable in terms of maintaining diversity in the population, and would try to favor that individual in a breeding program. ".
[NB: we need to compare to all other living dogs so the calculation can be heavy, so one would need to use a dedicated tool for this.].

In the breed there is also something "singular", the use of last introduced wolf line. If I understood well, Slovak breeders did not use much this line compare to Czech (and then Czech breeders needed to use much two dogs -Gar z Rosikova and Ikar z Krotkovskeho dvora- to help fitting in the standard). Anyway, this gives nowadays if you take CSV born after year 2000: 14% of them does not show Lejdy in their pedigree, which is huge fraction IMHO.

Hanka · 31-05-2010, 08:18

I hope early will be on czech club page list of all czech males. Now we have about 130 breeding males in 8 groups. For me are pups with "interest pedigree" pupps with father from some "small" group.
Now we had here in Czech two spring bonitations, so we have some fresh breeding males. I think, when somebody add them to their "blood" groups, they will be officially on list, for seeing for breeders.
But I am not sure, if this list will be visible for people not registred on czech club pages. I am not admin.......
I don´t speak about show results, about champions, etc. I speak ONLY about blood. It is important.
But now czech club arrange club conferention, so I think nobody in this moment work on this fresh list of males.

elf · 31-05-2010, 13:42

Interested about those 8 groups, how are they built: i.e. which criterions are used ? If these criterions are consistent it's something that easily can be automated in silico, with the benefit for exemple to easily simulated which mating fall into group X or Y, and so on.

Hanka · 31-05-2010, 19:42

Wow Elf, you know my bad english and you want explain something from me

?
So I try it. I write you situation in czech breeding to date 1.2.2010, because fresh dogs from spring bonitations are not included. Maybe Pavel or somebody can corect my grammatic mistakes:
GROUP I: males which keeps in father line blood of Rep z PS over male Gar z Rosíkova (16 breeding males, but 8 without children in CZ)
GROUP II: males which keeps in father line blood of Rep z PS, in their pedigries are Cézar od Pavlišina and Káj z Rosíkova (24 males, but 12 from them without children in CZ)
GROUP III: males which have blood of Binc and Candiff Pohostinstvo ( Rep z PS x Gyra z Pohraniční stráže). In this moment 6 breeding males, but 2 without children in CZ and one male older than 10 years!!
GROUP IV:Rep z PS, in pedigries of dogs is blood of Astor Moťovský dvor (son of Nuk z PS) in this moment only 6 males, but 3 males without children in CZ. In this group are usually dogs with very good working character.

GROUP V: males with blood of Bak and Barry z Doušova dvora (Eramis Vopa)
In this moment (February) 11 breeding males in this group, but 8 without children in CZ, 1 male older than 10 years!! We want more of his pups.
GROUP VI: Blood of Amur z Ďáblova kaňonu. 33!!!! breeding males in this group. 24 without pups in CZ, 4 males older than 10 years. Usually they are children of all "Reolup" males. I think, in some countries are almost ONLY dogs from this group. We "need not" to have this group larger and larger. We need other groups for genopool of wolfdogs in the World. It is a pitty, in other countries don´t exist clubs with breeding comissions, because nobody care about genopool of all population

.
GROUP VII: In the begin it was blood of Kazan z PS. But in genealogy line we have not his blood, so we keep this group over blood of his daughters. Thanks to "old czech club goverment and old breeding comission" we lost males from this blood. In this moment we have only old male Amarok Šedý chlup and "young" Akeenah Runar Waawanyanka. So we added to this group some males which have "a little of Kazan blood" too. In this group is only 7 breeding males, but 5 without children in CZ.
GROUP VIII: New group created from males with blood of Ajax and Alan Břevnovská stopa. There is only 9 breeding males, but 3 without children in CZ, one male is older than 10 years!!!
My uthopic dream is: other countries in Evropa will help to keep groups which need to help. The breeders in Evropa will use males from small groups. It is right breeding work. Not traveling to champions over all Evropa only for "wolfish pups" or next champions. In this moment we keep genopool for other countries too. Yes, there are "not nice" dogs too. But important is genopool, not showtitles.
Elf, sorry about my bad english, maybe is something bad in my sentences.

29-05-2010, 20:54	#2
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Nice idea for a new topic, so, I'm really curious to know what people think about it. __________________

30-05-2010, 19:01	#3
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	My two cents... In additions to "healthy lines", some dogs are very interesting because of the diversity they are carrying and they can bring into the breed. As we saw for exemple for Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor---, which belong at the moment to the very top of interesting dog regarding diversity. One can use mean kinship coefficient to have an idea of the level a dog is interesting (regarding diversity), quoting John Armstrong: "A conservation biologist would consider the individual with the lowest mean kinship to be the most genetically valuable in terms of maintaining diversity in the population, and would try to favor that individual in a breeding program. ". [NB: we need to compare to all other living dogs so the calculation can be heavy, so one would need to use a dedicated tool for this.]. In the breed there is also something "singular", the use of last introduced wolf line. If I understood well, Slovak breeders did not use much this line compare to Czech (and then Czech breeders needed to use much two dogs -Gar z Rosikova and Ikar z Krotkovskeho dvora- to help fitting in the standard). Anyway, this gives nowadays if you take CSV born after year 2000: 14% of them does not show Lejdy in their pedigree, which is huge fraction IMHO. __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

31-05-2010, 13:42	#5
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Interested about those 8 groups, how are they built: i.e. which criterions are used ? If these criterions are consistent it's something that easily can be automated in silico, with the benefit for exemple to easily simulated which mating fall into group X or Y, and so on. __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html Last edited by elf; 31-05-2010 at 13:45.

31-05-2010, 19:42	#6
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Wow Elf, you know my bad english and you want explain something from me? So I try it. I write you situation in czech breeding to date 1.2.2010, because fresh dogs from spring bonitations are not included. Maybe Pavel or somebody can corect my grammatic mistakes: GROUP I: males which keeps in father line blood of Rep z PS over male Gar z Rosíkova (16 breeding males, but 8 without children in CZ) GROUP II: males which keeps in father line blood of Rep z PS, in their pedigries are Cézar od Pavlišina and Káj z Rosíkova (24 males, but 12 from them without children in CZ) GROUP III: males which have blood of Binc and Candiff Pohostinstvo ( Rep z PS x Gyra z Pohraniční stráže). In this moment 6 breeding males, but 2 without children in CZ and one male older than 10 years!! GROUP IV:Rep z PS, in pedigries of dogs is blood of Astor Moťovský dvor (son of Nuk z PS) in this moment only 6 males, but 3 males without children in CZ. In this group are usually dogs with very good working character. GROUP V: males with blood of Bak and Barry z Doušova dvora (Eramis Vopa) In this moment (February) 11 breeding males in this group, but 8 without children in CZ, 1 male older than 10 years!! We want more of his pups. GROUP VI: Blood of Amur z Ďáblova kaňonu. 33!!!! breeding males in this group. 24 without pups in CZ, 4 males older than 10 years. Usually they are children of all "Reolup" males. I think, in some countries are almost ONLY dogs from this group. We "need not" to have this group larger and larger. We need other groups for genopool of wolfdogs in the World. It is a pitty, in other countries don´t exist clubs with breeding comissions, because nobody care about genopool of all population. GROUP VII: In the begin it was blood of Kazan z PS. But in genealogy line we have not his blood, so we keep this group over blood of his daughters. Thanks to "old czech club goverment and old breeding comission" we lost males from this blood. In this moment we have only old male Amarok Šedý chlup and "young" Akeenah Runar Waawanyanka. So we added to this group some males which have "a little of Kazan blood" too. In this group is only 7 breeding males, but 5 without children in CZ. GROUP VIII: New group created from males with blood of Ajax and Alan Břevnovská stopa. There is only 9 breeding males, but 3 without children in CZ, one male is older than 10 years!!! My uthopic dream is: other countries in Evropa will help to keep groups which need to help. The breeders in Evropa will use males from small groups. It is right breeding work. Not traveling to champions over all Evropa only for "wolfish pups" or next champions. In this moment we keep genopool for other countries too. Yes, there are "not nice" dogs too. But important is genopool, not showtitles. Elf, sorry about my bad english, maybe is something bad in my sentences.

31-05-2010, 08:18	#4
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	I hope early will be on czech club page list of all czech males. Now we have about 130 breeding males in 8 groups. For me are pups with "interest pedigree" pupps with father from some "small" group. Now we had here in Czech two spring bonitations, so we have some fresh breeding males. I think, when somebody add them to their "blood" groups, they will be officially on list, for seeing for breeders. But I am not sure, if this list will be visible for people not registred on czech club pages. I am not admin....... I don´t speak about show results, about champions, etc. I speak ONLY about blood. It is important. But now czech club arrange club conferention, so I think nobody in this moment work on this fresh list of males.