Why are these dogs in the database?

Bille · 26-09-2010, 20:57

Hello,

do somebody know why these dogs are in the database? Afra is no GSD or a wolf.

http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/d14230.html

She had one puppy, a male. His father Ajax has a complete pedigree in the database.

http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/p14218-6.html

Was he a GSD? Can somebody help me? The birth of them is long ago: 1919/ 1922

Many thanks and greetings
Bille

buidelwolf · 27-09-2010, 01:10

Wouldn't have the faintest idea, as I also do not know why following dogs are in the database:

http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d13571.html
http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d14325.html

Nebulosa · 27-09-2010, 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

Wouldn't have the faintest idea, as I also do not know why following dogs are in the database:

http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d13571.html
http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d14325.html

I guess Altaya de l'ange Gardien de Faujus is there because she is mother of a CzW mix called Dakara, the same thing to the father of Vorss de la Moliniere de lo Scale, a Saarloos called Tha'Anook.

buidelwolf · 27-09-2010, 01:56

Quote:

I guess Altaya de l'ange Gardien de Faujus is there because she is mother of a CzW mix called Dakara

Hello Paula,

That makes sense. I asked myself because with this Altaya de l'ange Gardien de Faujus I saw neither parents nor offspring listed with any link to the CSV breed. Now it's clear. Remains only the question of Bille still standing.

GalomyOak · 27-09-2010, 02:32

Not an answer, but maybe some clues.

Afra is also listed in the German Shepherd section of pedigreedatabase.com:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...ee/473607.html

Dorn (see progeny) is also listed as having a puppy (Odur vom Haus Schutting) with this dog:
http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/d14141.html

Maybe someone is doing some research on early GSD lines? It's so interesting to see how type was more important than pedigree back then - and might include adding in dogs from different breeds. Even using both databases it is still difficult to see a connection to our breed.

admin · 28-09-2010, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bille

do somebody know why these dogs are in the database? Afra is no GSD or a wolf.

http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/d14230.html

She had one puppy, a male. His father Ajax has a complete pedigree in the database.

http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/p14218-6.html

Was he a GSD? Can somebody help me? The birth of them is long ago: 1919/ 1922

To the database will be added all German Shepherd Dogs till the beginning of this breed. So far we didn't take into consideration the inbreeds by GSD. It can be interesting.

It is the reason why where are so many GSD in the datbase now. And also the reason why you can see there one rottweiller and one shorthaired collie (both dogs were used for building this breed). You will be also able to find there some new wolves - about 4 or 5 were used by Stephanitz. The GSD breeders are hiding it but we were able to find pretty good sources which explain why GSD were called "Alsatian Wolfdogs" before...

So far about the other breeds in the database...

About the "new" mixes - it is not a secret that some breeders (or better said "so called breeders") mix CzW with different breeds and register their offsprings as purebreed CzW... Because there were already cases where puppy buyer were not informed that their new dogs can not be used as real CzW because they are not "PURE" Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs we decided that it is better to include such dogs in the database to warn future puppy buyers and other breeders which dogs/kennels they should avoid...
All mixes are listed in the database with the additional text:
(!!!_MIX_!!!)

In the future we will add to the database additional text warning the breeders and owners against using such dogs for breeding.

yukidomari · 28-09-2010, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

You will be also able to find there some new wolves - about 4 or 5 were used by Stephanitz. The GSD breeders are hiding it but we were able to find pretty good sources which explain why GSD were called "Alsatian Wolfdogs" before...

Interesting, and I would like to know more about these sources, if possible.

Gypsy Wolf · 29-09-2010, 01:33

According to his own book on the breed, v Stephanitz also incorporated "Scotch Collies" into the GSD breed early on. This is supposedly why the "coated" GSD tend to have a more collie-like head, build and character...

29-09-2010, 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

According to his own book on the breed, v Stephanitz also incorporated "Scotch Collies" into the GSD breed early on. This is supposedly why the "coated" GSD tend to have a more collie-like head, build and character...

Wow, I know it's a little off topic, but that makes SO much sense!! My in-laws had an awesome coated GSD, and I always said she was just like a collie. I always thought collies and some GSD had a lot of similarities, makes sense since they're a bit related!

Gypsy Wolf · 29-09-2010, 02:56

Yes, genetics tend to "bundle"... at the time, the Kennel Club of Great Britain was sort of the model of Breed Standards... the same time the Germans were developing their GSD, the Belgians had modeled their Standard for the Belgian Shepherd on the Collie Standard, and of course, the GSD was taken from the same rustic farm stock as the Belgian... Interesting to note that the merling gene was also introduced via the Collie... you can even see some early pics of GSD that had merled coats and even some "rough hair" variety - like the Laekenois/Berger Picard... yes, there is wolf in the GSD, as well, and I would even hazard a guess that there is PLENTY of wolf genetics from our own breed's beginnings liberally interspersed in the Czech-line GSDs... not only are almost all Czech GSDs from the z Pohranicni Straze kennel, but when you trace the origins of the Czech-bred GSDs, you see lots of the F2, F3 Vlcaks' names in their pedigrees... the GSD folks insist this is not true, but they also look at the Czech GSD as not as pure as the West German dogs... just look at the temperament and physical characteristics, too, and you can see some wolf in there, pretty recently...

26-09-2010, 20:57	#1
Bille Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: D 72213-Altensteig-Wart Posts: 365	Why are these dogs in the database? Hello, do somebody know why these dogs are in the database? Afra is no GSD or a wolf. http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/d14230.html She had one puppy, a male. His father Ajax has a complete pedigree in the database. http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/p14218-6.html Was he a GSD? Can somebody help me? The birth of them is long ago: 1919/ 1922 Many thanks and greetings Bille

27-09-2010, 02:32	#5
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	Not an answer, but maybe some clues. Afra is also listed in the German Shepherd section of pedigreedatabase.com: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...ee/473607.html Dorn (see progeny) is also listed as having a puppy (Odur vom Haus Schutting) with this dog: http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/d14141.html Maybe someone is doing some research on early GSD lines? It's so interesting to see how type was more important than pedigree back then - and might include adding in dogs from different breeds. Even using both databases it is still difficult to see a connection to our breed. __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

27-09-2010, 01:10	#2
buidelwolf senior member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 163	Wouldn't have the faintest idea, as I also do not know why following dogs are in the database: http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d13571.html http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d14325.html

29-09-2010, 01:33	#8
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	According to his own book on the breed, v Stephanitz also incorporated "Scotch Collies" into the GSD breed early on. This is supposedly why the "coated" GSD tend to have a more collie-like head, build and character...

29-09-2010, 02:56	#10
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Yes, genetics tend to "bundle"... at the time, the Kennel Club of Great Britain was sort of the model of Breed Standards... the same time the Germans were developing their GSD, the Belgians had modeled their Standard for the Belgian Shepherd on the Collie Standard, and of course, the GSD was taken from the same rustic farm stock as the Belgian... Interesting to note that the merling gene was also introduced via the Collie... you can even see some early pics of GSD that had merled coats and even some "rough hair" variety - like the Laekenois/Berger Picard... yes, there is wolf in the GSD, as well, and I would even hazard a guess that there is PLENTY of wolf genetics from our own breed's beginnings liberally interspersed in the Czech-line GSDs... not only are almost all Czech GSDs from the z Pohranicni Straze kennel, but when you trace the origins of the Czech-bred GSDs, you see lots of the F2, F3 Vlcaks' names in their pedigrees... the GSD folks insist this is not true, but they also look at the Czech GSD as not as pure as the West German dogs... just look at the temperament and physical characteristics, too, and you can see some wolf in there, pretty recently...