What is an interesting pedigree?

[Vaiva]

Zitat von Nebulosa

Today its more and more difficult to find litters with interesting pedigrees like that.

I am sorry for the offtopic, but speaking about "interesting pedigees" not only in our breed makes me wonder...

Just a new topic maybe... But still - what do the forum members consider an "interesting pedigree"?

[Nebulosa]

Nice idea for a new topic, so, I'm really curious to know what people think about it.

[elf]

My two cents...

In additions to "healthy lines", some dogs are very interesting because of the diversity they are carrying and they can bring into the breed. As we saw for exemple for Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor---, which belong at the moment to the very top of interesting dog regarding diversity. One can use mean kinship coefficient to have an idea of the level a dog is interesting (regarding diversity), quoting John Armstrong: "A conservation biologist would consider the individual with the lowest mean kinship to be the most genetically valuable in terms of maintaining diversity in the population, and would try to favor that individual in a breeding program. ".
[NB: we need to compare to all other living dogs so the calculation can be heavy, so one would need to use a dedicated tool for this.].

In the breed there is also something "singular", the use of last introduced wolf line. If I understood well, Slovak breeders did not use much this line compare to Czech (and then Czech breeders needed to use much two dogs -Gar z Rosikova and Ikar z Krotkovskeho dvora- to help fitting in the standard). Anyway, this gives nowadays if you take CSV born after year 2000: 14% of them does not show Lejdy in their pedigree, which is huge fraction IMHO.

[Hanka]

I hope early will be on czech club page list of all czech males. Now we have about 130 breeding males in 8 groups. For me are pups with "interest pedigree" pupps with father from some "small" group.
Now we had here in Czech two spring bonitations, so we have some fresh breeding males. I think, when somebody add them to their "blood" groups, they will be officially on list, for seeing for breeders.
But I am not sure, if this list will be visible for people not registred on czech club pages. I am not admin.......
I don´t speak about show results, about champions, etc. I speak ONLY about blood. It is important.
But now czech club arrange club conferention, so I think nobody in this moment work on this fresh list of males.

[elf]

Interested about those 8 groups, how are they built: i.e. which criterions are used ? If these criterions are consistent it's something that easily can be automated in silico, with the benefit for exemple to easily simulated which mating fall into group X or Y, and so on.

[Hanka]

Wow Elf, you know my bad english and you want explain something from me?
So I try it. I write you situation in czech breeding to date 1.2.2010, because fresh dogs from spring bonitations are not included. Maybe Pavel or somebody can corect my grammatic mistakes:
GROUP I: males which keeps in father line blood of Rep z PS over male Gar z Rosíkova (16 breeding males, but 8 without children in CZ)
GROUP II: males which keeps in father line blood of Rep z PS, in their pedigries are Cézar od Pavlišina and Káj z Rosíkova (24 males, but 12 from them without children in CZ)
GROUP III: males which have blood of Binc and Candiff Pohostinstvo ( Rep z PS x Gyra z Pohraniční stráže). In this moment 6 breeding males, but 2 without children in CZ and one male older than 10 years!!
GROUP IV:Rep z PS, in pedigries of dogs is blood of Astor Moťovský dvor (son of Nuk z PS) in this moment only 6 males, but 3 males without children in CZ. In this group are usually dogs with very good working character.
GROUP V: males with blood of Bak and Barry z Doušova dvora (Eramis Vopa)
In this moment (February) 11 breeding males in this group, but 8 without children in CZ, 1 male older than 10 years!! We want more of his pups.
GROUP VI: Blood of Amur z Ďáblova kaňonu. 33!!!! breeding males in this group. 24 without pups in CZ, 4 males older than 10 years. Usually they are children of all "Reolup" males. I think, in some countries are almost ONLY dogs from this group. We "need not" to have this group larger and larger. We need other groups for genopool of wolfdogs in the World. It is a pitty, in other countries don´t exist clubs with breeding comissions, because nobody care about genopool of all population.
GROUP VII: In the begin it was blood of Kazan z PS. But in genealogy line we have not his blood, so we keep this group over blood of his daughters. Thanks to "old czech club goverment and old breeding comission" we lost males from this blood. In this moment we have only old male Amarok Šedý chlup and "young" Akeenah Runar Waawanyanka. So we added to this group some males which have "a little of Kazan blood" too. In this group is only 7 breeding males, but 5 without children in CZ.
GROUP VIII: New group created from males with blood of Ajax and Alan Břevnovská stopa. There is only 9 breeding males, but 3 without children in CZ, one male is older than 10 years!!!
My uthopic dream is: other countries in Evropa will help to keep groups which need to help. The breeders in Evropa will use males from small groups. It is right breeding work. Not traveling to champions over all Evropa only for "wolfish pups" or next champions. In this moment we keep genopool for other countries too. Yes, there are "not nice" dogs too. But important is genopool, not showtitles.
Elf, sorry about my bad english, maybe is something bad in my sentences.

[Mikael]

I was thinking that I did remember wrong...
"7 groups" but now I see there is a new one

Good work and thanks Hanka for explaining / Mikael

[elf]

Thanks for explanations Hanka (and don't worry for you english which is as mine).

I can add something in the stat tool with these rules, but I did not understood the separation between groups because you can have dogs who belong to more than one group.

[Hanka]

Yes, I know. Sometimes can be male in more groups, but there is important for example Rep z PS, BUT OVER male XY......
Because almost all dogs have Rep

[elf]

Yeah Rep z PS is every living CSV pedigrees, no exception. I was more thinking about Gar z Rosíkova.


Tell me if this is correct:

- for group I and II, you only check for father line ? And for other group you check for all ancestors (father and mother lines) ?

- for group II, when you write "in their pedigries are Cézar od Pavlišina and Káj z Rosíkova", to be in group II dogs should have both Cézar and Káj, or only one of them is enough ?


I'm going to add those groups classification in the tool, same groups are also used by Slovak club or do they have their own ?

[Hanka]

Elf, I send you names of dogs in groups, it is maybe better to see it. You can look at pedigries.
In groups we look at father lines.
But we have groups of females too. By females is normal to look at families (not father lines). But just for interest we have females in groups (father lines ) too.
But give me time. I send you email.
If you will make some program for it, it can be good for all owners of males, if they will want watch groups.
but maybe somewhere can be problem- for example if does not exist father line, in group can be some male which have blood of same "first reproductor" in mother line too. Unfortunatelly we lost some bloods in past..... it is not "clear", but it is "solution of emergency". It is a pitty, you don´t speak czech for better explaining.

[elf]

Hi, added "CZ breeding groups" feature in the Stat tool, let me know if it's working properly. You can also use + feature between IDs to simulate a mating.

Exemples:

Akim z Revíru vlku
Akim z Revíru vlku + Arielle la Seven Loup Cie

[Mikael]

wow this is just to good

Now I can play the hole weekend

Very best regards / Mikael

[elf]

I gave a short test for those groups criterions consistency, seems not very high, which means the expected "breeding effect" would not be as desired.

For exemple too many dogs in group X are also in group Y and/or Z etc. This is mainly probably because the dogs chosen to define groups are not discriminating enough, it would be maybe needed to redefine the groups criterions (for exemple by using more "recent dogs" ?). In this thread http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9817 we can see more contemporary dogs heavily present in current living dogs pedigrees, just picked some of them:

3.23256510027% -- 1991.11.13 -- Dora Šedá eminence (4212)
2.61552275919% -- 1993.01.05 -- Amur z Dáblova kanonu CS (340
2.19878893929% -- 1992.03.10 -- Besi Zeper CS (2865)
2.19802147369% -- 1990.02.16 -- Alma z Kladenské záre CS (2864)
2.18036976493% -- 1991.01.29 -- Ajax Brevnovská stopa CS (2841)
2.13048450103% -- 1992.05.30 -- Aras z Jundrovského boru CS (2776)
2.10976292988% -- 1992.02.02 -- Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS (2749)
2.10669306748% -- 1994.09.26 -- Charon Šedá eminence (2745)
2.0990184115% -- 1991.01.29 -- Atos Brevnovská stopa CS (2735)
1.77668286019% -- 1993.03.04 -- Colt Zeper CS (2315)
1.73600718348% -- 1991.10.05 -- Farna Jimili CS (2262)

4.26505400943% -- 1996.10.24 -- Dalos Duna Fehérlófia (2144)
3.37185939645% -- 1996.10.17 -- Dik Brevnovská stopa CS (1695)
2.50054705683% -- 1996.10.24 -- Dinon Dánon Fehérlófia (1257)
2.32946746504% -- 1995.01.17 -- Adon Irpruš (1171)
2.10467683861% -- 1996.09.29 -- Juna Hlas divociny CS (105
1.91768286618% -- 1996.10.17 -- Dita Brevnovská stopa CS (964)
1.85004674849% -- 1996.11.10 -- Milo Ruskov dvor CS (930)
1.83612166544% -- 1995.10.27 -- Ali Reolup (923)
1.81225009449% -- 1998.10.27 -- Clover ---(priv. Rienzi)--- (911)
1.79832501144% -- 1996.10.22 -- Cira Volání rodu (904)

5.84204098249% -- 2000.03.15 -- Oasia ---Passo del Lupo--- (861)
5.40778938798% -- 2001.04.12 -- Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- (797)
2.68693174108% -- 2002.10.03 -- Miky Passo del Lupo (396)
1.58094721129% -- 2000.05.15 -- Jolly z Molu Es (233)
1.39774731985% -- 2000.01.02 -- Legra ---Passo del Lupo--- (206)
1.32989550821% -- 2000.01.25 -- Fallko Kollárov dvor (196)


Said in other words, nowadays it's maybe more relevant for a dog to be said for exemple X% of Dalos Duna Fehérlófia and Y% of Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- etc, than to be X% of Gar z Rosíkova and Y% of Káj z Rosíkova.

[koboldine]

Hi elf,
great job, thanks a lot!!!!

I think that in Czech Breeding Commitee they needed to classify according to the "ancient" dogs, as this must have been started years ago.
From these classifications we can nevertheless define "interesting Pedigree" concerning blood lines.

Is there any chance to observe the character - ok, bonitation codes exist, but I sometimes would like to see them more differenciated...

Because...in my oppinion the character of a dog - and how he/she gives it to his/her puppies is important as well. CVC are special when it comes to characterising, and I have observed some kind of "fade out" of several character-parts in recent breeding - at least in Germany.

e.g. someone who likes to work with their dogs might find dogs from group IV more interesting... you know where I´m heading?
Others might have exellent blood but their puppies are more aggressiv or shy or...
Doesn´t that count in "interesting pedigrees"? (this is quite hypothetic as I do not know many CZ wolfdogs, nor enough wolfdogs from whereever to judge somehow)

Once again, thanks for this great tool - like Mikael already said: something to play with all weekend

regards
koboldine

[Hanka]

Hi Elf, I understant not all what you wrote. For example my Ali Reolup: can he to be in two groups in your statistic? Why? explain.....

[elf]

Hi Hanka, it's ok for Ali we could say he's in group VI: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco....py?dog_id=166

For exemple this dog was said to be in group VII: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...py?dog_id=7339 but we could say he's in II and V aswell.

[Hanka]

Ok, I write you email

[ste]

Sorry, I try to understand in which groups my dog should be...
Can you help me?Looking at my dog, whick group you choose?II, VII or VIII?

http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...py?dog_id=5321

[buidelwolf]

And if I understand it well, my dog belongs to group II? > http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...py?dog_id=9659