Differences in bonitations...

[rocco]

Matusincova isn't judge !!!!!!! He never pass exam for judge. She is a head of breeding commission in Czech . I agree with lupis you have good questions and very good point of vieiw .
The judge in Prag was Anna Simackova but code make Matusincova . I don't agree with czech breeding commission, it' s not a secret . But it's czech problem.....
And something to animal measure. It's difficult measure animals and give always the same number. It depends f.e. on condition, character, coat, if you measure on grass or on concrete......But too small dogs you can recognize at first sight. Standard said this precisely but if somebody want use small dogs who can prevent it ? Nobody.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by rocco

And something to animal measure. It's difficult measure animals and give always the same number. It depends f.e. on condition, character, coat, if you measure on grass or on concrete......But too small dogs you can recognize at first sight. Standard said this precisely but if somebody want use small dogs who can prevent it ? Nobody.

From what I read here written by Czech breeders I see that most of them are obssessed with size - it seems to be their main breeding criterium. I wonder if this approach is a kind of "weapon" against breeders from other countries, who breed smaller but.... nicer dogs.

For me there is more to the beauty of a dog than its hight or weight. These are proportions, head, movement, character etc., etc.

Maybe breeding Czechoslovakian elephants would be a solution for some Czech breeders?

[Hanka]

No Rona, size is not only one criterium for breeding. Do you know standart? Read what size MUST be wolfdog. If it is most beautiful wolfdog on the World, under standart size, it must not be in breeding. Standart is only one, for all wolfdogs.
I was on bonitation in Prag where was judge Simackova. I was sitting by table and I wrote codes to pedigree. But I don´t remember, only mrs. Matusincova told me codes....... it was work of all bonitation comission. And if was problem we spoke about it together. Hmmmm, maybe I was on some second action..................

[rocco]

No Rona - you are wrong for czech breedrs is important standard . And we have breeding comission and they advice breeding elephant but only in other kennel not in own .... Its difficult to explain it. In other country you can mix what you want ( I thing it's sometimes better, but sometimes.....) in Czech we must have paper from breeding comission -----and use dogs f.e. from Italy is very hard fight with Matusincova.

For me is important normal CSW with good character. Beuty is not all ......And what somebody love (small dogs ) somebody seems it is bad.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

No Rona, size is not only one criterium for breeding. Do you know standart? Read what size MUST be wolfdog. If it is most beautiful wolfdog on the World, under standart size, it must not be in breeding. Standart is only one, for all wolfdogs.
I was on bonitation in Prag where was judge Simackova. I was sitting by table and I wrote codes to pedigree. But I don´t remember, only mrs. Matusincova told me codes....... it was work of all bonitation comission. And if was problem we spoke about it together. Hmmmm, maybe I was on some second action..................

Hanka, you're writing about ideas, and I - about the practice . Read what Lisbeth wrote: the dog was smaller - but then it grew... I agree that malnutrition may lead to smaller size of the dog - but than should such a dog really be excluded from breeding, even if it is healthy and beuatiful and has excellent character? We both know that sometimes smaller dogs, if correctly matched, may have pups that grow to average or even big sizes and pass very positive genes.

The real (and for me really irritating) problem is that if OUR (or our friend's dog) is small - it was underfed and/or sick in puppyhood. If a dog of our antagonist is small - it is UGLY and does not meet the standard. Do you see the point I'm trying to make?
In my opinion this is a very childish and self-destructive attitude which in the long run will lead to the devaluation of bonitation. In fact, it already has. Not to mention, that honest breeders will fear to write openly about their dogs' imperfections - and no dog is perfect, even the best Czech one.

And something to animal measure. It's difficult measure animals and give always the same number. It depends f.e. on condition, character, coat, if you measure on grass or on concrete......

This is exactly my opinion. One centimeter this or another way shouldn't matter as long as the dogs fulfils other criteria, beacuse it may have very valuable features and it would be a waste to exclude him/her from breeding. The standard does not say what should the dog be standing on during bonitation and wheather it should be in his summer or winter coat or be before or after the bath.

But too small dogs you can recognize at first sight.

I don't agree here: thinner dogs look smaller, those with more robust body - bigger. People see a slim dog and judge: "it's too small" even if it matches the standard or even exceeds it and it is stated in the bonitation code. A more heavily built dog, with biggr coat will give an impressioin of being taller (even if 1-2 centimeters have to be added at bonitation to his height to meet the standard)

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by lupis

And me and my friends see she not like italian dogs because she give bad marks for small things and much good marks for czech dogs. It is normal for this judge?
My friends know about bonitation in pavia and very nice dog have bad bonitation code and many bad marks. here you can see three for example

Dear mr. "Lupis", I don't saw you or your friend in Pavia, so please speak abuot things that you know.

Anyway the dogs shown in example have taken P3, and this result isn't so "orrible". I don't agree with some judgment but overall I think mrs Matusincova judged well.

Originally Posted by liesbeth

I understand your point about Cutt... He's a nice male with very nice offsprings and it's a pity he has a P14 code because of his height

...and mainly because is character!
During "italian" bonitace (without character test ) he gone in panic when somebody outsdide the ring closed the door of his car...

[Hanka]

In italian bonitation is NOT test of character?

[Navarre]

sometimes yes, sometimes no...

Now, the c. test of italian club bonitace is similar to CAL 1. The dog never be alone at the picket.

At the year of serramazzoni bonitace, they don't wanted any character test (because in that bonitace were many shy dogs of "some" breeders), but mrs. Bognarova gained, after a hard bargaining, that the dog should be almost alone (however without any threat).
So the test was more easy, but some dogs had troubles( big troubles) even with that easy test.

This is why many italian breeders and owners no more go to bonitaces organized by italian club and manage to organize themselves with the help of foreign kennel clubs (like that in Pavia).

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

From what I read here written by Czech breeders I see that most of them are obssessed with size - it seems to be their main breeding criterium.

Yes, and this sounds strange... I have a tall and muscular but still very feminine female (Walkiria Girios dvasia) and in my case I am more worried about "mastif" like looking dogs, about too big and to heavy dogs... My female was measured during the bonitation by Oskar Dora and the code says she is 66 cm. But when I measure her myself, the number is changing So maybe we should trust the experts?...

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Yes, and this sounds strange... I have a tall and muscular but still very feminine female (Walkiria Girios dvasia) and in my case I am more worried about "mastif" like looking dogs, about too big and to heavy dogs... My female was measured during the bonitation by Oskar Dora and the code says she is 66 cm. But when I measure her myself, the number is changing So maybe we should trust the experts?...

I trust the experts But even then measuring can change
My female was 61 cm on youth presentation (of a CZ judge) and 60 cm on a later Bonitation (of a SK judge)
But this is not a real problem for me!

[Rona]

Originally Posted by mijke

My female was 61 cm on youth presentation (of a CZ judge) and 60 cm on a later Bonitation (of a SK judge)

This only proves that I was right that some Czechs are obsessed with size . The dog may grow with time, but I doubt if can shrink This example also shows how absurd the "one centimeter bonitation wars" are.

But this is not a real problem for me!

Neither would it be for any reasonable CSV owner.

[Hanka]

vaiva,
I never read here, somebody like "mastife types". If you thought me, I DON´T LIKE heavy dogs. But I only write: standart is standart and we must respect it. In this case we write about size. It is- why I answer about size now. When will be topic about some other things- we can write about other things. Why do you mean- somebody like heavy dogs?