HD results

[Hanka]

Yes Massimo, I wrote, I want give it there, but in this moment I have not so good scanned foto. I must try do it on some better machine. Maybe it is technical problem for this kind of gallery. It was in my first question: Is it technically possible to do this "gallery" or database, where will be only scanns? I wait some answers from other people. In past I tried to do some scanns. Some was good, some was too dark.....maybe we need for it more light fotos.....Or- how we can do it better?
Daiva- yes. But it was not my first idea. My first idea was to be maximally open to other breeders, to give them all info what they want to know. I want to do the same (to other pople) like I like. If I want know all about my favorite males, I must offer the same. Not secrets about defects of my dog.
What is important to know about stud male? (If I have not chance to see him "live"?): body, teeth,charatcter,HD result, health. If I can see it , on fotos or on video, great and thanks about it.

[wolfin]

Hanka, Yes this be good idea, but sorry not all vet cann make exam rtg but You cann. this be very interesing
Cann I please exam this dogs, and other too cann this make
nr.1


nr.2


nr.3

[Mikael]

There is still some problems whit the wolfdog photo gallery, wrong dogs in the wrong place... No big problem, but what if a X-ray photo end up in the wrong place not to easy to se that it is the wrong scans

And I do not nether think Margo and crew is interested in ALL the work it will bee, way not just add your scans on your own websites

Best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

I don't believe in all results, specially when I see dogs from a not nice line for hips making only A results, but its inevitably, studing the bloodline of the dog you can have a small idea about this and take more care.
The main problem is:
It will not be impeached by the photo of the X-ray when its possible to make a fake with Photoshop!

What I really wonder about is of the Elbows results, nobody make this exam and when its made its possible to find even breeders using affected dogs, as if Elbows displasy was not important ( when in truth the problem is bigger than the Hips one), and yes, the breed is affected with this problem, we only don'thave many positives because nobody test! it's really a problem and will turn the things difficult if people don't start to get aware, test the dogs and took out of breeding the affected dogs.

I have at home ruler and scribing compass. I am breeder longer time and I know something about it.

And with it you will not be able to judge if the degree is correct or not as far you don't have the assurance that who do the foto don't turn the camera more for one side to another one, as far you don't have the assurance the owner who make the scann put it properlly in the scanner and as far you can't see the properlly place of where you may put the "compass" for meassure the angle.
if have something you will not be able to judge by fotos mostly will be the angles of X rays.
The X rays exams don't depend only of the angles but of some details as well.
But here on this topic we have a nice test then you as experienced breeder for sure will be able to evaluate the fotos that Daiva show here.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I don´t see any sense in posting the photos knowing that even not specialized vets are sometimes wrong in judging the degree in about 2 grades. As Paula wrote there are several points that go into the HD-result.
Looking at the x-rays shown here I must say that - if they are the original one - two of them would have been refused the judgement because of not fullfilling the quality standarts of the German VDH-judges.

There is an easy solution to that problem, like for Dwarfs there is a genetic test now awailable for HD, inveted by a German institut and verified on German Shepherds. They now start to verify it for other breeds and the waiting list is long but I will arrange for it. My problem is, as I wrote before in this forum without reaction, I need 500 CSW that have official results, half of them free, half of them with HD. It is impossible to get this amount only in Germany so please, if you and/or your breeding club is willing to help me send me a message. It makes no sense for me to even start asking if I am not able to get those dogs.

It has been shown that even in breeds with very low incidence of HD like Belgium Shepherds there is an astonishing amount of carriers, what means that if you know the genetic status you can avoid combinations that will result in bad HD-offspring. Every breeder here will agree with me that this will be a great gift.
They are working on test for Epilepsy and ED as well, maybe I could arrange something on that too.

Ina

[Vaiva]

If someone really wants his dog's rtg scan to be published, maybe they can browse the picture like a photo of one's dog If it is ok and possible

[Mikael]

Zitat von michaelundinaeichhorn

There is an easy solution to that problem, like for Dwarfs there is a genetic test now awailable for HD, inveted by a German institut and verified on German Shepherds. They now start to verify it for other breeds and the waiting list is long but I will arrange for it. My problem is, as I wrote before in this forum without reaction, I need 500 CSW that have official results, half of them free, half of them with HD. It is impossible to get this amount only in Germany so please, if you and/or your breeding club is willing to help me send me a message. It makes no sense for me to even start asking if I am not able to get those dogs.

Ina

I will support you Ina, but I think 500 sounds like to many for are breed...
way so many ??? I think Dwarf DNA test was made by only a very few dogs...

is it not possible to make this DNA test whit (just) 200 dogs ???

And I think we better send the X-ray’s to and not just the official results,
so that there be no mistakes...

Can you ask if we really need 500 dogs and if it is possible to do the ED DNA test at the same time ???

Do they wont all kinds of results, A, B, C, D or do they just wont A and D ??? or maybe A and C results ???

Very best regards / Mikael

[Vaiva]

Zitat von michaelundinaeichhorn

There is an easy solution to that problem, like for Dwarfs there is a genetic test now awailable for HD, inveted by a German institut and verified on German Shepherds. They now start to verify it for other breeds and the waiting list is long but I will arrange for it. My problem is, as I wrote before in this forum without reaction, I need 500 CSW that have official results, half of them free, half of them with HD. It is impossible to get this amount only in Germany so please, if you and/or your breeding club is willing to help me send me a message. It makes no sense for me to even start asking if I am not able to get those dogs.

What exactly do you need, Ina? Photos? DNR sample? What can we do to help you in this case?

[Nebulosa]

Zitat von Mikael

I will support you Ina, but I think 500 sounds like to many for are breed...
way so many ??? I think Dwarf DNA test was made by only a very few dogs...

is it not possible to make this DNA test whit (just) 200 dogs ???


Can you ask if we really need 500 dogs and if it is possible to do the ED DNA test at the same time ???

Very best regards / Mikael

Becase different of Dwarfism, HD is poligenic and its the main problem, in easy words, when you need only one carrier of Dwarfism for validade the test, for a poligenic illness you will need a lot of, for mark all responsible genes for the illness and so, turn the test possible.
I will not be surprised if with 500 they will need more dogs.
Make a test for ED can be even more complicate, I wonder if it already exist.

Zitat von Mikael

And I think we better send the X-ray’s to and not just the official results,
so that there be no mistakes...~

Commonly, when you officialize the results the X-rays stay with the fondation/college, as not all people ask for a X ray copy or ever make photos of it, I don't think it will be possible.

[Mikael]

Zitat von Nebulosa

Becase different of Dwarfism, HD is poligenic and its the main problem, in easy words, when you need only one carrier of Dwarfism for validade the test, for a poligenic illness you will need a lot of, for mark all responsible genes for the illness and so, turn the test possible.
I will not be surprised if with 500 they will need more dogs.
Make a test for ED can be even more complicate, I wonder if it already exist.

Commonly, when you officialize the results the X-rays stay with the fondation/college, as not all people ask for a X ray copy or ever make photos of it, I don't think it will be possible.

Thanks Nebulosa

..............................

To all

How many CsV is there whit official HD results today, will it be possible to gather 250 good and 250 bad results ??? and maybe more ???

I think it might be hard, but possible if the clubs of origin helps and Italy to...

What will be the cost for every owner you think ???

Maybe we can make a list of people that is willing to help ???

Will it be a demand of age of the X-ray ??? as minimum 18 month for female and 24 month for a male ??? as for example the x-ray of a 12 month male is apparently not to accurate at all...

Best regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

It is not possible in Germany but it should be easy on international basis.
I will call them on Monday and try to get the exact things that a neccessary.
If several countries join in it should be possible.
We plan to come to Bratislava end of this year maybe we can arrange that everybody interested brings his HD-results and if necessary x-rays and I take the blood samples there. Maybe Paula or other vets are also there.

Ina

[Mikael]

Zitat von michaelundinaeichhorn

It is not possible in Germany but it should be easy on international basis.
I will call them on Monday and try to get the exact things that a neccessary.
If several countries join in it should be possible.
We plan to come to Bratislava end of this year maybe we can arrange that everybody interested brings his HD-results and if necessary x-rays and I take the blood samples there. Maybe Paula or other vets are also there.

Ina

Thanks

Yes I hope it will be possible, but I have a feeling that people is interested, but when they have to lift there own as up from there sofa and go to the vet and also pay on top of it, they play hard to catch...

Very best regards / Mikael

[saschia]

Ina, I hope you plan to come to Bratislava sooner thatn end of year! The World Show is in early October!!! ;o)

If it is not too expensive, I am willing to submit Frei's results and DNA sample for test. I even have (or should have somewhere) her hip and elbow x-rays. If scans would be enough, that would be best, as the hip photo is the worse from two which were made (but it should be good too) and we don't get back the photo after evaluation. Her official HD result is A0/0, I don't have official ED results, but the joints seemd good on the picture.

[wolfin]

Zitat von michaelundinaeichhorn

It is not possible in Germany but it should be easy on international basis.
I will call them on Monday and try to get the exact things that a neccessary.
If several countries join in it should be possible.
We plan to come to Bratislava end of this year maybe we can arrange that everybody interested brings his HD-results and if necessary x-rays and I take the blood samples there. Maybe Paula or other vets are also there.

Ina

Super. We wait moore info about this all. I cann thake blood example from all LT dogs who have HD ED test, only not have rtg copy. We not have this, only results is written in pedigree.

[Vaiva]

Zitat von wolfin

Super. We wait moore info about this all. I cann thake blood example from all LT dogs who have HD ED test, only not have rtg copy. We not have this, only results is written in pedigree.

There is no need for you to bother gathering all dogs together and taking the blood - it costs about 6 Lt (less than 2 euro) to take a blood sample for a dog in Vilnius Guess it is not more expensive in other countries either. So there is no problem at all - only the case of storrage and sending the examples.

Also I guess there is possibility to ask the vets to scan the rtgs and send them to the club, don't you think so?

[wolfin]

Zitat von Vaiva

There is no need for you to bother gathering all dogs together and taking the blood - it costs about 6 Lt (less than 2 euro) to take a blood sample for a dog in Vilnius Guess it is not more expensive in other countries either. So there is no problem at all - only the case of storrage and sending the examples.

Also I guess there is possibility to ask the vets to scan the rtgs and send them to the club, don't you think so?

Yes, good idea. About rtg we mas quest veterinar and know is this posibility or not.

[canislupus]

Hello,
I read an article about the HD-Test not long ago...and there was written that breeds with small population only have to bring around 300 dogs. Half of them free, half of them with HD result c,d,e

I hope that´s correct.
...but Ina will be better informed in a few days...

best regards
Tanja

[Margo]

Zitat von Mikael

How many CsV is there whit official HD results today, will it be possible to gather 250 good and 250 bad results ??? and maybe more ???

There are over 1600 HD results in the database. About 1200 dogs are still living. But only 200 of them have the result HD-C, HD-D and HD-E....

[Margo]

Zitat von Hanka

I have question. Do you belive to all results of HD what are publiced here on wolfdog? What do you mean about central database (gallery) of these fotos? Scanned X-ray fotos? Everybody can see it and measure it.
Is it possible to make good databese from X-ray fotos? Or is it out from our technical posibilites?

Technicalyx there is no problem. But because of the "problems" listed by Nebulosa and Ina it make no sence to do this... It is already pretty hard to get the scanned copies...
But in the new database we can add the possiblity to add also the photo of the hips if you want...

PS. We made something more important - we collect information who made the x-rays. So in the new database you will have information not only about the results but also the name of the vet who checked it.

[Margo]

Zitat von Nebulosa

What I really wonder about is of the Elbows results, nobody make this exam and when its made its possible to find even breeders using affected dogs, as if Elbows displasy was not important ( when in truth the problem is bigger than the Hips one), and yes, the breed is affected with this problem, we only don'thave many positives because nobody test! it's really a problem and will turn the things difficult if people don't start to get aware, test the dogs and took out of breeding the affected dogs.

Yes, you right.... We checked the dogs with ED-problems and there are more and more dogs with elbow dysplasia. Mainly because some breeders do not care about it...

The most cases are found in Italy but not because it is "italian probem" but because many dogs are checked there (here I want to say thank you tothe owners who check the dogs!).... But we saw some dogs with visible problems with elbows also in Czech Repoublic and some other countries - nobody speaks about such problem there because almost nobody check the elbows there and the problem stay "hidden".

What I must say: your breed is not free of the elbows problems. It is pretty seldom BUT the the ED seem to be highly inheritated (much more that the HD). So the possibility that offspring of a dog with ED problems will also have ED is VERY HIGH. Because of this we decided to remove all stud dogs with ED worser that ED 0/0 from the stud dog list and suggest the breeders also to check elbows by their dogs. EXPECIALLY in the lines where ED problems appear....