Wilczy Omen Kennel

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi,

I'm just wondering what the breeding regulations in Poland like, since I noticed the following, upcoming litter.

www.wolfdog.org/deu/litters/1085.html

Is it just an experiment to use a dog with such a bad hip score ( HD-D) or is there any other important reason using this bitch?
It can't be this especial mating, since we have loads of descendands from their ancestors.

Thanks,
Michael

[krzyg]

Envoyé par michaelundinaeichhorn

I'm just wondering what the breeding regulations in Poland like, since I noticed the following, upcoming litter.

In fact according to polish breeding regulations HD is not required for mating CSV. We hope that would change when club of breed is founded.

Envoyé par michaelundinaeichhorn

Is it just an experiment to use a dog with such a bad hip score ( HD-D) or is there any other important reason using this bitch?
It can't be this especial mating, since we have loads of descendands from their ancestors.

X-Ray of Anarchia has been taken before mating, but we didnt have formal opinion. Wet who took the picture convinced us that hips are ok. We made a mistake and belived him. Hi dont have right to make formal expertise so picture was send to other doctor. Before we got answer it was time for mating. Our wet was 100% sure that there will be no problem with hips. We decided to allow mating...

Puppies will be sold as pets (not for breeding) to owners from Poland only. Anarchia will be sterilized.

[Gaga]

Envoyé par michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi,

I'm just wondering what the breeding regulations in Poland like, since I noticed the following, upcoming litter.

www.wolfdog.org/deu/litters/1085.html

Is it just an experiment to use a dog with such a bad hip score ( HD-D) or is there any other important reason using this bitch?
It can't be this especial mating, since we have loads of descendands from their ancestors.

Thanks,
Michael

For me it's a scandal, but I'm not surprised in this case.:/
Krzyq-do you want to SELL the puppies???

[Nebulosa]

Sold as Pet normally means sell at cost price ( vaccines, deworming and so).
I'm glad that different of some breeders you had honesty to show the real results of your dog to the world, while you could perfectly search for a different vet, in different country and make one acceptable result like C or even A, as we know some cases even on very famous studs.

[krzyg]

Envoyé par Gaga

Krzyq-do you want to SELL the puppies???

People, who are interested in puppies of Anarchia and Jabber, was informed of her HD. We talked with them as soon as we had official result. We have put information about her score on our website and in WD database. We don't lie to them that everything is ok. This is theirs decision if they still want puppy. We think that someone, who has to pay for a dog, thinks more careful then if it is for free. We didn't write anywhere that puppies will be sold for regular price.

Envoyé par Nebulosa

Sold as Pet normally means sell at cost price ( vaccines, deworming and so).

Exactly. Information about lower price is on our website.


We know that this mating shouldn't happen. We wouldn't allow it, If we had any clue that Anarchia is sick. We took our lesson. Now we're doing our best to put puppies in good hands.

[Mikael]

Envoyé par krzyg

We know that this mating shouldn't happen. We wouldn't allow it, If we had any clue that Anarchia is sick. We took our lesson. Now we're doing our best to put puppies in good hands.

Responsible and very honest answers, but very hard lesson to learn , newer trust the vet in cases that conserns HD results.

Very sorry for the D result.

Good luck whit the puppy´s anyway, I hope you find good responsible owners.

Very best regards / Mikael

[Vaiva]

Envoyé par krzyg

Puppies will be sold as pets (not for breeding) to owners from Poland only. Anarchia will be sterilized.

Maybe it would be good to ask the new owners of pups to sterilize them too?.. You know how people buy dogs "not for breeding", but later change their minds... And also dogs without pedigrees come in that way...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi,

thanks for your frank answer.
I didn't want to accuse you openly, I was just curious about that case.
The steps you have planned now show real responsibility to me.
But the real shame actually is on the Polish Kennel Club who doesn't require any hip scores at all.
Good luck for you and your puppies.

Regards,
Michael

[massimo]

Envoyé par krzyg

We know that this mating shouldn't happen. We wouldn't allow it, If we had any clue that Anarchia is sick. We took our lesson. Now we're doing our best to put puppies in good hands.

big congratulations for your honesty and openness, i am shocked by such clear talking, positively of course.
Wouldn't happen in Italy...I'm sure...

I don't think that there are many countries like germany that forbid pedigree to displasic dog mateings, also Italian national kennel club doesn't care who parents are, they can even be brothers or father and mother and displasic, as long as they pay their quota for the pedigrees.
massimo

[mijke]

@ Krzyg: I have respect for your honesty and openness!

[DanielZ]

Envoyé par krzyg

In fact according to polish breeding regulations HD is not required for mating CSV. We hope that would change when club of breed is founded.
.....

Sorry but the club will not change anything on the HD. at the moment this is unrealistic in poland

[Nebulosa]

Envoyé par michaelundinaeichhorn

It can't be this especial mating, since we have loads of descendands from their ancestors.

Envoyé par Krzyg

Puppies will be sold as pets (not for breeding) to owners from Poland only

Envoyé par Vaiva

Maybe it would be good to ask the new owners of pups to sterilize them too?

Seems that here we can enter in a very interessind topic also.
Sold as pet could also means the obligation of neuther the pup independant of the results of this litter.
I would make a little bit different in this case:
I would gave or sold by cost price the puppies with a normal pedigree in my name, legally the pups will be at my own and it will be pretty clear explained in one strong contract.

- The pedigree of the puppies would stay in MY name and in MY OWN, all owners would took the puppies but without put the hands in the papers.
- all owners must make the X rays of ED and HD and officialize the results.

Depending of the results the owner must neuther the dog, sending me a receipt of it for proof the sterelization, in this case I would send him the pedigree, passed for his name and let clear in the papers that this dog is not for breeding.
If the dog is Ok, so I would stay with the dog in co-ownership with the owner ( my and his name in the papper), and if someone want to use it for breeding ( in the case of a stud male), I would judge if it would be wise or not looking at the line of both dogs for HD, in the case of females I would only allow to use her if it be strictly necessary, what I think and hope it will never be.

Argo made some puppies with bad HD, some of his puppies also will not be used in breeding because his owners are not breeders and I have no idea about the results that will have the brothers of Anarchia and there is the point I see.
Anarchia by Argo its common because Argo was already well used, but with her mother Enya its a different history, the conection that made Enya ( Dak x Hera) is very interessing, but was a litter with few puppies, Eja I dont have idea where is she and about her results, Aros is in France and got C results in France, but if I remember well a long time ago on French forum someone wrote that he got A in his orign country, after make again the results, he only mate Astrale Les plaines de L'est which looking at the line of Astrale and her brothers and taking it in consideration I find he made very good puppies.

Its well known some cases of interessing mates which the puppies simply had disapeared or the owners we are able to contact have dogs that are not able to mate ( because the age or by the fact that the owner neuthered the dog, also we can see cases of dogs that simply dont make puppies), and because of it the blood of whole litter if still didn't disappeared are in path to it happen.

So, I would neuther the unhealty dogs, but let the healty ones in my guard for, if strictly needed, use it with a lot of care.

After all, we dont know the future, now this line its more common and we have some young dogs with the blood of Enya and Argo, but in more 8 years, will it be?

[btd]

I have respect for your honesty and openness!

If you want to be 'on' wolfdog, you dont have any other option. He knows its this or witch hunt and burning :-> And any wolfdog reader should know that every fuck up sooner or later will be found ant used against.

I just wonder how breeder can enforce:

Puppies will be sold as pets (not for breeding) to owners from Poland only

- he will take pregnant bitch from owners who breeded her? I know that there are agreements and contracts between breeders and owners, but I think thats only owner's good will to fulfill them. Nebulosa wrote good points, but it's still based on owners good will

And for me it's huge f##up, and growing in size as I resemble how sssmok were writing that hers breeding will be made according to all rules like in slovakia etc.

I see this like this:

They want to have litter after Jabber - he has BOG, BOBs, and other trophies and Anarchia Ľalinok - she has nothing to be outstanding or just to be proud of.

Anarchia doesn't have joints RTG so breeders make it but fails to have official results of RTG and when its time for mating they do it without results. And as always in such cases 's## hits the fan' and now its only cleaning the mess.

[Nebulosa]

When you breed dogs mainly you will depend of owners good will, that's why the breeders ever try to select maximaly as possible the owner.
If the good will of the owner dont be "such good" in the worst case you can use the law and rights for the contract be respected, that's why the contract exist.

Envoyé par btd

he will take pregnant bitch from owners who breeded her?

Good point, in this case the puppies will not have pedigree, as the papers must be signed in agreement with Sssmok and Krzyg because the co-ownership.
The owner will brake the contract, and the breeder will need to enter in the justice, there the contract will be really used.

The second option is sterilize the female puppies while they're still small, before go to the new owners house. To tell you the truth I agreed with this metod of early sterilization before, untill some dogs and cats early sterilized (included 2 of my cats here) start to show health problems that can be related with it after some age, without count sometimes the complet loose of sexual distinction for males, and extended growth for both.
He can put on contract the sterilization and even like it he wil depend of owners good will again.

No doubts, the best is select better as possible the owners because wanting or not, you will depend of his good will even for threat the dog properly.

They want to have litter after Jabber - he has BOG, BOBs, and other trophies and Anarchia Ľalinok - she has nothing to be outstanding or just to be proud of.

Titles are only a nice way to have why go at dogshows, already makes a long time that titles don't select absolutely nothing in the breed, as have no meaning at all in quality question, but looking well be proud of a dog only because of titles its tipical of begginers which still dont know the truth behind dogshows and what's mean breed a dog breed, or of blind people wich still didn't awake for the truth, sometimes you can meet ill persons which wants of the dog everything he couldn't be in real , I really dont think Sssmok or Kryz have this kind of blindness, nd I hope i'm right.

Anarchia doesn't have joints RTG so breeders make it but fails to have official results of RTG and when its time for mating they do it without results

I really dont know how many time in truth leave for make the results and have real answer about the HD and ED of the dog in Poland, but here for you get the official pappers its normaly over 1 year of waiting. So commonly the breeders make the X-rays with a gratuate veterinary from the radiology college, soon after the X rays this same vet can tell you one preliminary result of the hips of your dog, is very rare they make mistakes in this results, only after it you send the results to the college and wait 1 year for the official ... otherwise you will be able to mate your dog only after she have 3 years old

Envoyé par Krzyg

X-Ray of Anarchia has been taken before mating, but we didnt have formal opinion. Wet who took the picture convinced us that hips are ok. We made a mistake and belived him. Hi dont have right to make formal expertise so picture was send to other doctor. Before we got answer it was time for mating. Our wet was 100% sure that there will be no problem with hips. We decided to allow mating...

For what they explained it seems that was a pretty similar case, but in the first veterinary who made the evaluation make it wrong.

Envoyé par btd

He knows its this or witch hunt and burning :->

Dont you think its good? the world of this breed is very small as the breed situation is very fragile, is a good way to avoid huge problems for the breed futurely, as people get warned about whats happening and can work against a foreseen problem.

[jefta]

Envoyé par Nebulosa

.

I really dont know how many time in truth leave for make the results and have real answer about the HD and ED of the dog in Poland, but here for you get the official pappers its normaly over 1 year of waiting. So commonly the breeders make the X-rays with a gratuate veterinary from the radiology college, soon after the X rays this same vet can tell you one preliminary result of the hips of your dog, is very rare they make mistakes in this results, only after it you send the results to the college and wait 1 year for the official ... otherwise you will be able to mate your dog only after she have 3 years old

In Poland it depends on post but here is example:
19.11 x-rays by local vet
26.11 date on official document-result by phone
01.12 owner get dokuments to hands.

but it can be much longer (polish Post )