Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs?

[Gypsy Wolf]

Hi all,
I am sure I am opening a can of worms by bringing this topic up, but I strongly believe that only transparency and honesty in breeding will help us improve our breed...
I would like to know what has happened in regards to the "Mutara" dogs? There is not a whole lot of "official" information (at least in English) can find on the subject - and most of the information I do have is subjective - statements on this forum that may or may not be accurate or true.
From what I can gather, at some point in the last few years, a GSD mix and a North American wolf were bred, with the intent to expand our gene pool. This seems to have happened in an Italian kennel, with the pups registered as Vlcaks and later shown and titled as such.
Though I do agree that sometimes new blood needs to be brought in for certain breeds' gene pools (here in the U.S. the Basenji and Canaan dog folks have brought dogs in from their native countries without papers to widen gene pool) I can't imagine why it would be a MIX (better to use a papered, pure-bred GSD to be able to trace lineage, I would think) and a North American Wolf (weren't the Carpathian wolves selected as they have better character traits than the NA wolves?)???
Most of the posts I found were dated 2003 - it's 7 years later - what has happened? Officially? And in Reality?
As a fancier and consumer, if you will, I would not want a Mutara or anything even close. Too much "unknown" for me. I want a REAL, pure Vlcak, with a history I can trace back to it's inception, and see for myself the dogs Karel Hartl himself chose to breed together. I want a VLCAK, not a wolf hybrid...

[Mikael]

Maybe this Google translation can help you ???

>>> http://translate.google.com/translat...&sl=auto&tl=en

Very best regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Wolfdog.org Admin did write this in the past...

COPY from Wolfdog.org

...

"We do not advertise here kennels:

- which mix and register Saarloos-Czechoslovakian Wolfdog mixes

- which use lines where appear the offsprings of the mix
Dark (priv. Locchi) who was registered by ENCI with the false parents names. And it doesn't matter in ANY GENERATION the dog will appear

- which own and use for breeding the nonbreeds know as Mutaras (Ave Lupo ---Mutara--, Audrey Lupo ---Mutara--- and Ares Lupo ---Mutara---)

- which own and/or use for breeding any nonbreeds and their offsprings comming from the S- Passo del Lupo litter: Selly Passo del Lupo, Sakim Passo del Lupo, Sam Passo del Lupo, Sangria Passo del Lupo, Sanika Passo del Lupo and Seiko Passo del Lupo.


REASON: There is no advertising and soon the future puppy buyers will be warned not to buy any puppies from this lines and kennels because the litter S-Passo del Lupo, Dark and Mutaras were officialy BANNED by the Slovak Club and recognized as NON-BREEDS!!!!
Because it is not possible to count with the national kennel clubs and for example ENCI seems nothing wrong in registering mutts as purebreed dogs it was needed to make additional steps and protect the CzW genepool.

So NONE of these dogs and NONE of their offsprings will EVER be registered by the breed club in Slovakia (and also Czech breed club) and it will be not ALLOWED to import or breed ANY offsprings of these dogs EVEN if the nonbredd will be in 20-, 30 or 100- generation…"

End of copy

...

Best regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

I asked the Slovak Czechoslovakian Wolfdog club about the copy obowe and where they stand officially in this matter in 2009 and got this answer…

"The dogs you mentioned are banned officially, but not mentioned by name -
the official ban says that dogs, whose paretnage is not known precisely up
to the year 1989 (when the breed was officially recognized) is not
considered CSV and therefore cannot be used in breeding."
/ Slovak Czechoslovakian Wolfdog club.


I also show the copy above and asked the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Check breeders club of there opinion and got this answer…

"Dogs with unclear origin are not used for breeding in the Czech Republic of course. We are closely connected with Slovak breeders club and we cooperate. We are ready to cooperate with other breeders clubs..."
/ Check breeders club

.................................................. ................................

Best regards / Mikael

[Gypsy Wolf]

So it's 7-8 years later - what happened to the dogs? Did they reproduce? Are any of the offspring registered legally or illegally?
Is there a chance of these mutara dogs getting into our bloodlines?

[Mikael]

I´m no Mutara expert but I can try to answer as good as I can

So it's 7-8 years later - what happened to the dogs?

You can find them in the database.
Lupina did pass away in 2008.

Did they reproduce?

Yes

Are any of the offspring registered legally or illegally?

Yes

Is there a chance of these mutara dogs getting into our bloodlines?

Yes, but as (we) know ho they are I think the Mutara lines will not live on...

Best regards / Mikael

[Gypsy Wolf]

So, in effect, these bloodlines will not be a threat to our breed? My concern is, as I am a novice, that I might have USED or BOUGHT a Mutara without knowing any better as it isn't something that is OBVIOUS. How would someone be able to prevent such a mistake?

[Rona]

Envoyé par Lunas Mom

So, in effect, these bloodlines will not be a threat to our breed? My concern is, as I am a novice, that I might have USED or BOUGHT a Mutara without knowing any better as it isn't something that is OBVIOUS. How would someone be able to prevent such a mistake?

By careful study of the potential rep's pedigree and of the pup one intends to buy. Takes time and no shortcuts available, I'm afraid. Besides, when buying a pup, it is recommended to select an ethical breeder interested in the breed development and not just a "pup producer" . In fact recognizing "who is who" in CSV breeding takes even more time ...

[Pavel]

Very shortly info - Mutaras are banned in CZ and SK. They reproduce illegaly (mostly under other names - e.g. Alaska) in Italy. More you can found in database.

[sciamalaia]

In Italy, for sure, we are at the third generation of mutara. Those three generation have a "green" pedigree. From The next generation on, maybe they are already born (i don't know), the new puppies will have a normal pedigree. So, if you don't want mutara's blood in your pup you have to study his pedigree. My opinion on the loss of informations is that maybe it will be better if they will be registred in Database (I hope the owners of new generations will do it), because it could be difficult to identify them in the future, but of course it is just an opinion, i don't intend to polemize.

[Gypsy Wolf]

Will they be able to be registered in CZ or SK when they have a "normal" pedigree?
I totally agree with the idea that a list of mutaras be maintained in order to prevent registration of any mutara descendants as CsV - otherwise it would be possible to eventually register them in CZ or SK, right?
I mean, Luna's pedigree, for instance, goes back 8 generations to foundation stock - wolves and GSD. Once the mutara descendants get to that point, how could you find out if they are not pure?

[admin]

Envoyé par sciamalaia

In Italy, for sure, we are at the third generation of mutara. Those three generation have a "green" pedigree. From The next generation on, maybe they are already born (i don't know), the new puppies will have a normal pedigree. So, if you don't want mutara's blood in your pup you have to study his pedigree. My opinion on the loss of informations is that maybe it will be better if they will be registred in Database (I hope the owners of new generations will do it), because it could be difficult to identify them in the future, but of course it is just an opinion, i don't intend to polemize.

I already spoke with the programmer of the new database and ALL dogs with Mutara blood (it doesn't matter which generation) will be marked in the database with special warning about their not pure-breed origin and the people will be asked not to use them for breeding as they are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs but pure mutts...

Even after the mixes will get "normal" pedigrees it doesn't matter for us: because some national kennel clubs are not able to guaranty the quality of their pedigrees and allow to register as CzWs even dogs with 0% of CzW blood ("Alaska", Mutaras, aso) we decided to base on the direction of the breed clubs in the origin countries and to ban Mutaras and ALL their offsprings.
They are mixes of unknown origin and will be treated by us as any kind of mixes.

[Pavel]

Envoyé par Lunas Mom

Will they be able to be registered in CZ or SK when they have a "normal" pedigree?
I totally agree with the idea that a list of mutaras be maintained in order to prevent registration of any mutara descendants as CsV - otherwise it would be possible to eventually register them in CZ or SK, right?
I mean, Luna's pedigree, for instance, goes back 8 generations to foundation stock - wolves and GSD. Once the mutara descendants get to that point, how could you find out if they are not pure?

Generally dogs with register only (not with normal pedigree) can be registered in CZ, but using this dogs is practically banned. Only when somebody make a project, where argumentate, why wil use Mutaras in breed and when this project approve club conference of delegates, then is it possible. But just because the whole story of Mutaras am sure, that nobody approve it.

[sciamalaia]

I already spoke with the programmer of the new database and ALL dogs with Mutara blood (it doesn't matter which generation) will be marked in the database with special warning about their not pure-breed origin and the people will be asked not to use them for breeding as they are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs but pure mutts...

That's not exactly what I mean... If they are "marked" why should a breeder register a mutara's litter here? If you mark them you will lose all the future information, I think.
My opinion is that it is a war not so easy to fight, i've seen a Q-Mutara many times, people (common people, they are the market, they don't study four lines of pedigree's generation) likes him and he is not even the best of the litter.. when they will be use in breeding they will have no problem to sell the puppies. The mutara's line is a line that you can avoid (but just if you have informations) but it is not more a line that you can destroy..
Terrorism about mutara will not bring anything good, talk about them, write articles about them, study them will bring consciousness and opinions.
I say that, my opinion, with all the gratitude I have for this website and his Database, not to criticize or polemize.

[Hanka]

In Slovakia can´t be used for breeding Mutaras and their children too. I hope after czech conferention (14 days later) here will be the same. If other countries (clubs) will have the same conditions, Mutaras will be "closed" in Italy.
Unfortunatelly- only in a few countries are breeding clubs for wolfdogs.

[admin]

Envoyé par sciamalaia

That's not exactly what I mean... If they are "marked" why should a breeder register a mutara's litter here? If you mark them you will lose all the future information, I think.

Really don't worry. The mixes are bred ONLY by puppy producers and other dishonest breeders which did not send us the information about their puppies. So really there is no difference.
All information we received about these mixes comes from private people and official registries. So we will have the exact information about all lines and kennels "infected" by the Mutara blood also in the future.

Envoyé par sciamalaia

when they will be use in breeding they will have no problem to sell the puppies.

I have one questions: are the people which buy such puppies warned that the puppies are not purebreed Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs but just mutts? Are they informed that these dogs are banned by the official clubs in Czech Republic and Slovakia - and banned will be not only their puppies but ALL their offsprings? That they will be not accepted to participate any club events? Even in 20 years?
Are they informed that no even one GOOD breeder will use their dogs and their offsprings EVER?

Of they are just cheated? Sure that they get a PURE BREED dog?

Envoyé par sciamalaia

The mutara's line is a line that you can avoid (but just if you have informations) but it is not more a line that you can destroy..

I know. I know they are breeders which breed intentionally ill dogs, untypical dogs, dogs with strong dysplasia and other serious faults. So I'm sure there will be always breeders which breed not pure breed dogs. There will be always Breeders and Puppy Producers.

But nobody want to destroy the dogs. Just ask the Mutara-offospring owners to re-register them to the proper breed: they should be registered by your kennel club as Saarloos Wolfdogs. They simply do not have any thing common with our breed.
Mutaras are Saaloos alike crossing with blod of Malamute, Shepherd and some unknown dogs. And they offsprings can be compared to Saarloos-CzW-something crosses.

[sciamalaia]

are the people which buy such puppies warned that the puppies are not purebreed Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs but just mutts? Are they informed that these dogs are banned by the official clubs in Czech Republic and Slovakia - and banned will be not only their puppies but ALL their offsprings? That they will be not accepted to participate any club events? Even in 20 years?
Are they informed that no even one GOOD breeder will use their dogs and their offsprings EVER?

So we will have the exact information about all lines and kennels "infected" by the Mutara blood also in the future.

I hope they will be warned, I can just hope that, but i'm not optimist.. Of course when someone asks me I try to explain what I know about their history, but normally who hears don't care about it.
They are mutts, that's true... but they do have a pedigree, they can take part to a lot of events here, how many Italians go abroad to take part to a club activity? not so many.. How many search for a foreign stud? not so many..

Indeed I have not enough competences to give my contribute to this topic so I leave it to the expert as it should be. My line is to have as much informations as I can about who has those dogs, where they are and what is their names. I hope everyone will find those information here also in the future.

[Pavel]

Envoyé par sciamalaia

My opinion is that it is a war not so easy to fight, i've seen a Q-Mutara many times, people (common people, they are the market, they don't study four lines of pedigree's generation) likes him and he is not even the best of the litter.. when they will be use in breeding they will have no problem to sell the puppies.

But this peopel dont understand, whats mean the word "breeding". We dot produce the puppies for sale only !!! Mutara is just from begin a illegal action, without club approvement, without any project, targets or any descriptions, why was produced. Any texts about Mutara from side people, which was active in this illegal action, was create first after I publish, that this hybrids exists. Simply say, Mutara cant bring to CsW race anything. Mother is white canadian wolf and father is a GSD (?) without pedigree, thats mea unknown origin and of course with unknown faults and illness. From character side is nothing too. Father is a excellent trace dog (one of the best in CZ), but tracing is the really last character sign, which is necessary to improve by today CsW generations.

[Gypsy Wolf]

So who, exactly, registers these Mutara dogs? If there is no where to register them, then it isn't so good to produce them - people who buy dogs want papers, so if there are no official papers, there is no money.

[Mikael]

Envoyé par Lunas Mom

So who, exactly, registers these Mutara dogs? If there is no where to register them, then it isn't so good to produce them - people who buy dogs want papers, so if there are no official papers, there is no money.

Read the quote in post #3 again

ENCI = Ente Nazionale della Cinofilia Italiana = Italian Kennel Club.

I´m not from Italy so please correct me if I´m wrong

Best regards / Mikael

REASON: There is no advertising and soon the future puppy buyers will be warned not to buy any puppies from this lines and kennels because the litter S-Passo del Lupo, Dark and Mutaras were officialy BANNED by the Slovak Club and recognized as NON-BREEDS!!!!

Because it is not possible to count with the national kennel clubs and for example ENCI seems nothing wrong in registering mutts as purebreed dogs it was needed to make additional steps and protect the CzW genepool.