Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[elf]

One french breeder had the surprise to see red (Saarloos color alike) puppies in the litter Thalia Crying Wolf x Sibir Crying Wolf.

Ever happened to any other breeders ? (Send me an email if you prefer [email protected] )

[yukidomari]

Do you have any photos? Do you mean reddish like Belke Outlaws Heaven?

[martiou07]

Envoyé par yukidomari

Do you have any photos? Do you mean reddish like Belke Outlaws Heaven?

no, red color typic Saarloos :



Other problem, it's not secret, we have also other dog in France, typic mix, same origin this mariage.

What do you think ???

All people, we like CSW, what let us can be done???

[massimo]

Slowly....slowly... strange results from normal mating start appearing.
Till they are super wolfish everybody is happy (although they are just as unlikely to be real)..but when they come out with a beautiful Saarlos red, people start worrying.

For those who didn't understand what I meant in THIS POST....maybe now you understand!

Solution? EASY!! DNA TEST....without consent of breeder...unofficial.
I don't trust "certain" breeders anymore.
I dont know Lorry and cannot say anything good or bad about her.
Just know that Vorss is owned by her and Vorss sons look strange too...

Martiou, funny thing is that with these "strange" breeding results in france, purchase is INCREASING , not decreasing, which means that the brain of the buyers are getting smaller and smaller...

[martiou07]

Hello Massimo,

there are DNA test, Thalia and Sibir are good parents ....

What do you think ?????

the big problem now is that touches a very known breeding…. On the English forum we have participants of all nationalities, I would like to have your opinions ..... The French livestock has a very bad reputation, normal, much of very atypical dog… these dogs are for the majority of the descendants of breeding of Sibir and Thalia…. there is what to raise questions ..... no ?

[saschia]

Very surprising color. Well, the two dogs are closely related, Sibir being Thalia's uncle on both sides, but still even in close inbreeding I would not expect that color on CSW.

[Dayen]

Those are very heavy accusations. Be carefull about what you are saying and also, please read something about genetics before you spread such gossip about any CSW.

If we are really talking about brown pigmentation (red puppy, brown nose):

* To have such a puppy born in a litter with parents with black pigmentation, both parents must have gene for a brown color/pigment. If such gene is possible for Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, we would have brown puppies quite often over the years!

* So, from a CSW statistic, you can NOT have puppy with brown pigmentation from a litter in which at least one parent is pure CSW!



PS: Don't you have a larger photo?

[Mikael]

If we are really talking about brown pigmentation (red puppy, brown nose):

* To have such a puppy born in a litter with parents with black pigmentation, both parents must have gene for a brown color/pigment. If such gene is possible for Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, we would have brown puppies quite often over the years!

* So, from a CSW statistic, you can NOT have puppy with brown pigmentation from a litter in which at least one parent is pure CSW!

Yes, I think this is the point of the question

Best regards / M

[Mikael]

Envoyé par massimo

For those who didn't understand what I meant in THIS POST....maybe now you understand!

Or if they want to understand, maybee this one is better >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...ighlight=mixes

Best regards / M

[mijke]

Who of all wolfdog forum readers did ever see this red (saarloos alike red color with brown nose) before in a CsW litter?

I am only intersted in what you did see (not in names or blaming breeders) )
Because mutations can always appear in every breed!

[Nebulosa]

I would not be surprised if start to appear diluted colors in CzW as weird characteristics due mutations, principally when it comes from a consanguineous mate, but show a different feature in a tipical dog, with tipical proportions is very different than show this in dogs we can see are not tipical.
Im nor even entering here in the merit of "someone cheated or not" but the fact that even by this simple photo we are able to see that these dogs are not CzW independant of their color, it's water clear by their heads.

[elf]

Envoyé par Dayen

Those are very heavy accusations.

Well, I did not write accusations but deductions, the facts are:

- Thalia x Sibir gave some red puppies (Saarloos alike)
- DNA tests tells Thalia x Sibir are the parents
- From what I know both parents have to be carriers, so finally hundred of dogs may be involved worldwide

[saschia]

The question of parentage seems to be very important now - it is possible to find out if Galiba really is father of Sibir, but even more important - and harder to find out - is whether parnts of Thalia are the ones that are declared. Thalia and Galiba should have the same father. And there are a lot of offspring of Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora. It is hard, but genetic tests should be able to at least show, if it is possible for two dogs to be half-siblings.

Either way, birth of such red pups from supposedly purebred mating is a grave matter and brings issues such as parentage testing to new levels of importance.

[Dayen]

Purely in theoretic part, since we never seen brown CSW before.
Carriers of brown color are quite easy to find by DNA test. Maybe it could help to consider this:

Brown dog (bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are born black pigmented and all are carriers of brown gene (Bb).

Black pigmented dog with brown gene (Bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are black pigmented, some puppies are carriers of brown gene (Bb), some not (BB).

Bb + Bb = 25% BB, 50% Bb, 25% bb

[saschia]

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

[Dayen]

Saschia, I don't know. This whole situation is weird.
I've never seen brown European Wolf, CSW or German Shepherd. That indicates CSWs are BB.

Maybe there is some exception for brown/red sable as for example I know the exception for two black&tans to sometimes have puppy with different colour. So I could be wrong.
But system really works so simple for solid brown colour/pigmentation, as far as I've seen with my other breed.
Maybe I'm doing too big jump from solid to sable colour, but I'm sure about solid color and pigmentation should go with it.

[jefta]

Envoyé par saschia

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

This is so easy and universal for all dogs Test is avalible. I cant link here but for example in DDC VETERINARY test for one locus (we are intrested in one locus- "B") cost 58 $

[yukidomari]

Martiou, is the photo you posted a photo of the actual dogs in question, or just two red Saarloos to show the color?

[saschia]

jefta, I looked at the web and the coat color test is only for few breeds and I would not know which locus to test for.

B Locus (DNA markers tested – S41C, P345Pel, Q331X)
Associated with the presence of chocolate (also commonly referred to as liver or brown). The bb genotype usually results in a chocolate coat phenotype and liver noses among yellow dogs.

How would this gene work in agouti-colored dogs (like wolfdogs)? The liver-colored nose is not enough to say that this is the gene of interest. You may ascertain it by crossing a liver-nosed wolfdog with liver-nosed labrador and look at the noses of the puppies (but that would be cruelty in my opinion, so please do not try it ;o))

OK, I was mistaken about the funding, apparently.

[jefta]

Agouti is determinated by different locus "Aw"

csv are AwAwBB, this dogs are AwAwbb