where you keep a wolfdog during winter: outdoor or in house.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

And why shouldn´t they?
My two Mantrailers tend to enter the bed and sleep in my bedroom at night and still are able to search for people. Staying in the house as a family member has no influence on the nose or working ability. Important is a good working-relationship to their owner.

Ina

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Altai und Amsel bei der Arbeit.jpg
Amsel and Altai after work.

Also interesting as a lot of people say you can´t keep adult females together unless they are related. All three dogs on the picture are adult only two are related...

[yukidomari]

Сообщение от Tana

I am sorry but i like more those who save others life instead of sleeping like a lazy cat, any dog can do this of course, no need to be wolfdog can be a cute bichon, still the cat is the best, no matter what:

I think that the ability to work is more dependent on training and genetics through breeding, then does on whether a dog is treated like an integrated part of a family or simply lives outside ...

[Tana]

I'm asking again: why have you started this topic if you wanted to hear one answer? It's your dog and you may keep her where you want. Experienced owners expressed their opinions, but you don't believe them. Fine with me - I respect your right to make mistakes.[/quote]
****************
I was just curious to see how many think a wolfdog must be raised outside and how many think is better inside. So if i have my oppinion different than your, why you care so much and presume so many stupid things about me or my country?! Do you really think that such dog who slept all his life in the house, if some day is lost in the wilderness, is able to survive and adapt, instead of being a good prey for other animals, including wolves? My respect for this race means to keep the natural abilities of wolfdog intact if i can. So i am sorry but I can't believe a dog raised to sleep like a lazy cat in the owner's bed can still survive and be accepted in a wolf pack, like the one in the documentary, not even that is able to hunt for his own food. Also in my oppinion is prone to diseases more than one who live outside all his life, where the harsh climatic condition can help him to be more healthy and resistant in long terms. Is the evolution way, tested for centuries by nature herself-the stronger, survive; the weaker is food for the stronger. Harsh but true. Also I kept years ago a german shepherd in an apartment( my parents apartment, when i was a student), so i really know how is it. All the dogs smells and let a lot of hair behind, they can destroy cables and doors also they steal food if they can. Washing them often is not healthy for their hair, so you must live with them after they was outside in long walks each day. Ahaha this is a nightmare, the smell is in the blanket, the hair is in the air. The hair can provoke asthma. This is the reality. If you do not realise this, your guests maybe are too polite to say you the truth. Is like in a smoker house. Everything can be clean, even in photos , but when you visit him you realise somebody smoke there.But in photos is a perfect harmony . Of course I have photos with my little dog and my 180 l aquarium. Tana can be nice in the house for several hours if first we play with her, but i will be never sure what will be with the fate of my aquarium if she will be left "home alone" No more to say, each owner has his taste. I doubt when wolfdog was created was for sleeping in bed, watching tv etc. this is simply mocking the dignity of this race. No wonder that some german shepherds owner's, from working line, think also this is a "failed experiment" If some of the owners, who keep him in house think like that about their wolfdog, what to say about strangers In that documentary was -among others things(the life in a real wolf pack)-about how to create a bond with an proud wolf without destroying his natural way to be, a kind of high respect that i can understand and i really like. So I will try to keep the nature path if i can, because i think is healthier. Anyway, is really funny, i wonder how some could sleep well during night, with almost 45 kilos(an adult wolfdog) on them, is another kind of falsity i can't believe, because is far away from any kind of good sense. I think all are just funny photos for the family album. Or maybe you try once and after you go to doctor to check your bones Sorry again, we all like to sleep well during night, family and dogs, each one in his place : bed ,cage or under sun

[Rona]

Сообщение от mijke

My dogs love to work ánd to be family members

Just like ours, Mijke. Only we don't do water rescue only mantrailing, like Ina

Also interesting as a lot of people say you can´t keep adult females together unless they are related. All three dogs on the picture are adult only two are related...

Who says that?
I find it hard to believe how many myths people make about vlcaks There more silly myths they believ in, the less hard work they put in upbringing, training and relationship building. And then - when the dogs grow - they make even more myths about how wild and unpredictable creatures they are... ... just sad.

[Angelika]

Сообщение от Tana

I searched a dog for many years, to be close of White Fang, if you know the story ...

Aha ... simply a misguided romantic

If you really need a guard dog "to protect your small house near the Black Sea", why didn´t you take an Airedale from your breeder?

It would have been better because you´ll never understand the character of a CsW.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

You mix up a lot of different things here.

Сообщение от Tana

****************
Do you really think that such dog who slept all his life in the house, if some day is lost in the wilderness, is able to survive and adapt, instead of being a good prey for other animals, including wolves? My respect for this race means to keep the natural abilities of wolfdog intact if i can. So i am sorry but I can't believe a dog raised to sleep like a lazy cat in the owner's bed can still survive and be accepted in a wolf pack, like the one in the documentary, not even that is able to hunt for his own food.

CSW are dogs not hybrids, they were selected for dog behaviour, those with wolfbehaviour were killed in the past and still get sorted out to some amount by the bonitation. Dogs are our only animals that have the genetic imprinted need to bond to humans and that see humans as their main pack - this was a selection done over at least 15 000 years. No matter if you raise them indoors or outdoors there are very few dogs that are able to survive alone in the wild. The only way to survive in a wolf pack as an adult is to be one of the founders. We raised several European wolves, they took our adults as pack leaders till they got mature themselves, we had to take the dogs out then, even the dogs that don´t live in the house and lived within the pack with wolves they raised. They simply don´t have the wolves mentally and bodily strength. We also took two CSW-puppies and put them in the pack together with Wolf Cubs of the same age. With about 4-5 month of age we took them out, through the whole time they stayed dogs and till today they live as dogs.

Сообщение от Tana

my oppinion is prone to diseases more than one who live outside all his life, where the harsh climatic condition can help him to be more healthy and resistant in long terms. Is the evolution way, tested for centuries by nature herself-the stronger, survive; the weaker is food for the stronger. Harsh but true.

First they are not healthier but in the oposite get less old, due to the harsher conditions and as a vet with a long experience I will not discuss here. Less health comes from wrong selection, evolution doesn´t work for pets as the evolutionary process for pets is made by humans not by nature.

Сообщение от Tana

I kept years ago a german shepherd in an apartment( my parents apartment, when i was a student), so i really know how is it. All the dogs smells and let a lot of hair behind, they can destroy cables and doors also they steal food if they can. Washing them often is not healthy for their hair, so you must live with them after they was outside in long walks each day. Ahaha this is a nightmare, the smell is in the blanket, the hair is in the air. The hair can provoke asthma. This is the reality. If you do not realise this, your guests maybe are too polite to say you the truth. Is like in a smoker house. Everything can be clean, even in photos , but when you visit him you realise somebody smoke there.But in photos is a perfect harmony . Of course I have photos with my little dog and my 180 l aquarium. Tana can be nice in the house for several hours if first we play with her, but i will be never sure what will be with the fate of my aquarium if she will be left "home alone" No more to say, each owner has his taste. I doubt when wolfdog was created was for sleeping in bed, watching tv etc. this is simply mocking the dignity of this race. No wonder that some german shepherds owner's, from working line, think also this is a "failed experiment" If some of the owners, who keep him in house think like that about their wolfdog, what to say about strangers In that documentary was -among others things(the life in a real wolf pack)-about how to create a bond with an proud wolf without destroying his natural way to be, a kind of high respect that i can understand and i really like. So I will try to keep the nature path if i can, because i think is healthier. Anyway, is really funny, i wonder how some could sleep well during night, with almost 45 kilos(an adult wolfdog) on them, is another kind of falsity i can't believe, because is far away from any kind of good sense. I think all are just funny photos for the family album. Or maybe you try once and after you go to doctor to check your bones Sorry again, we all like to sleep well during night, family and dogs, each one in his place : bed ,cage or under sun

How you keep your dogs is you personal decision and this is the only way I agree, apart from this our dogs are not allowed in every room of the house so don´t worry about our guests and wolfdogs don´t smell as GSH do if you don´t keep them in dirty kennels. But my dogs are all working dogs in the true sense of the meaning, they search missed persons all day long several days in row if necessary or they play in movies.
Again if you think a wolfpack is the same as a dog pack you need to do a lot more research and I would recommend science studies instead of some documentaries in television.

Ina

[Tana]

Сообщение от Angelika

Aha ... simply a misguided romantic

If you really need a guard dog "to protect your small house near the Black Sea", why didn´t you take an Airedale from your breeder?

It would have been better because you´ll never understand the character of a CsW.

So Angelika, the smart answer ever i seen ) Hmm only because i keep a dog outside not inside my house, because i do not like to have hair and his poop everywhere and a hard to accept smell for a healthy family, i will never understand the wolfdog...hahaha. So maybe i must buy an airedale because his poop smell nice or different and his hair is blondie? Hahaha. So smelling or cleaning the dog poop and the hair, each day in a house with childrens, a house where we sleep, eat and relax ourselves after work, i will be wiser and i will have a very good relation with my dog. Hahaha. Eventually i can sleep on my floor and the dog in my bed so like that we will be in the same pack forever. Hahaha. And i do not need a guard dog, sure not, to protect my family like their ancestors did in the past when the first human tamed a wolf offering him the heat of a fire and food, for his protection in an partnership. Oh noo, i need only to be his servant, I will be happy to clean the mess and repair after him, all the time, to feed him only with raw meat and my children with bones. Hahaha .You are all very funny indeed. Never imagined you are so many , so far away from the good sense of living healthy and let wolfdogs be themselves. I will keep all my dogs outdoor even if are puppies, to make them resistant to diseases, in a good cage with a lot of grass inside, like i usually have. The best place for a wolfdog is a paddock or a pen where he can be with other dogs, not in the house. I will have like always a good relation with them, like i have from many years. For me they are companions, not my house puppets or childrens. Our house is not a dump. Have fun in yours.) Oh and yess, i am glad to be the last misguided romantic in the world, omg hahaha

[yukidomari]

I'm only sorry that your only experience with dogs was one that seemingly made your house 'a dump'......

[Angelika]

Сообщение от Tana

i am glad to be the last misguided romantic in the world

Congrats ... and you made my day too.

[Angelika]

Сообщение от yukidomari

I'm only sorry that your only experience with dogs was one that seemingly made your house 'a dump'......

The dog wasn´t guilty, Jing

[yukidomari]

Сообщение от Angelika

The dog wasn´t guilty, Jing

surely not guilty, since any regular owner with even a little training ability, at least potty trains a dog...

[Tana]

Сообщение от michaelundinaeichhorn

You mix up a lot of different things here.


CSW are dogs not hybrids, they were selected for dog behaviour, those with wolfbehaviour were killed in the past and still get sorted out to some amount by the bonitation. Dogs are our only animals that have the genetic imprinted need to bond to humans and that see humans as their main pack - this was a selection done over at least 15 000 years. No matter if you raise them indoors or outdoors there are very few dogs that are able to survive alone in the wild. The only way to survive in a wolf pack as an adult is to be one of the founders. We raised several European wolves, they took our adults as pack leaders till they got mature themselves, we had to take the dogs out then, even the dogs that don´t live in the house and lived within the pack with wolves they raised. They simply don´t have the wolves mentally and bodily strength. We also took two CSW-puppies and put them in the pack together with Wolf Cubs of the same age. With about 4-5 month of age we took them out, through the whole time they stayed dogs and till today they live as dogs.

First they are not healthier but in the oposite get less old, due to the harsher conditions and as a vet with a long experience I will not discuss here. Less health comes from wrong selection, evolution doesn´t work for pets as the evolutionary process for pets is made by humans not by nature.

How you keep your dogs is you personal decision and this is the only way I agree, apart from this our dogs are not allowed in every room of the house so don´t worry about our guests and wolfdogs don´t smell as GSH do if you don´t keep them in dirty kennels. But my dogs are all working dogs in the true sense of the meaning, they search missed persons all day long several days in row if necessary or they play in movies.
Again if you think a wolfpack is the same as a dog pack you need to do a lot more research and I would recommend science studies instead of some documentaries in television.

Ina

Ina (michaelundinaeichhorn ) sorry your name is too difficult to write, so i used copy-paste. So Ina with what you said i can agree, i have respect for your work and such work , made me proud to have myself a little wolfdog. But i still not agree to keep such a big dog in a small house like we have, where are also childrens. Is not german shepherd but is still hair in the air and dog smell , this is the truth and we do not agree with such things in our house, not even the childrens. I am sorry the reality is not like in some tv movies with dogs and childrens )You can keep a very good relation with your dogs even if they live outside, of course that a dog pack is not so harsh like an wolf pack, but inside this dog pack are many good rules for a puppy, like the respect for the oldest and the guardian behaviour. Also i am sure , just watching them, that they live more happy playing with each other in the dog way, than living inside where are a lot of restrictions. In your house maybe are few, in mine are many because is smaller and we are many. Is what i said. No man can replace another dog when is about playing or teaching another puppy how to behave in a dog pack. In my little girl's pack is a kind of solidarity wich is not like human friendship with a dog. If you have many dogs and you are vet you understand this.This kind of life in a dog pack is very good for my small wolfdog, nobody can replace the experience and the life lessons from the older dog.Why to say that an owner of wolfdog can't understand his dog just because he live outside? My house is not big, but my yard i think is large enough.I am sorry is not bigger but is inside a town, not in the country side.The bond can be, no matter where your wolfdog live. Is such a falsity to pretend you are in the same pack only because you sleep with your wolfdog in the bed. Hahaha. Of course they are family outside too. A real wolf or dog pack anyway is far away from human rules is what i said and what you wrote confirm this is the truth. Even if you own a dog pack, i think you do not need to sleep with a wolfdog in house to have a bond with him. Is enough to understand him.Is not that i know everything, of course i have many things to learn, i am eager to know new things, but only when you keep a good sense of reality. As i admire and i respect wolves, i think is better to keep my wolfdog near her ancestors path, is just my oppinion. You want to say that wolf traits in a wolfdog are a bad thing? Well i admire the wolf trait in a wolfdog.I wonder why many breeders want to keep that trait in him?!Finally, if that guy, in that documentary about wolves, was able to establish a bond with a free wolf, a kind of bond that shows respect for their way to be, an owner can do the same with his wolfdog no matter where he live. Also are many good working dogs, including german shepherds from working line, who live only in large pens or in paddocks. And why some think that this dog is not good like a guardian one and i should buy another one?If can be a rescue dog and i admire such dogs, why a wolfdog can't be a guardian dog ?!I have an open mind to learn other things, but you all must understand another oppinion very different from your mentality, that living with an wolfdog inside is simply not our way to be and never will be. Like me are others, just we have this way to understand the life, where the dog has his place and the human another one and we are not bad owners of dogs for that. Hahaha. If i tell to my aunt who is the owner of a rottweiller puppy that she must sleep with his dog in the house or in the bed, because some guys on a forum think like that and are used to do such thing with their own dog, she will die of laughting ) Ah and my aunt is more than 60 years old hahaha That can be such a good joke for 1 april to tell her that she is not a good owner and the animal protection will take his dog, only because she did not slept in bed with his rotty during winter hahaha. I must be a little tasmanian devil like she wolf Tana and try this)

[Tana]

Ina (michaelundinaeichhorn ) sorry your name is too difficult to write, so i used copy-paste. So Ina with what you said i can agree, i have respect for your work and such work , made me proud to have myself a little wolfdog. But i still not agree to keep such a big dog in a small house like we have, where are also childrens. Is not german shepherd but is still hair in the air and dog smell , this is the truth and we do not agree with such things in our house, not even the childrens. I am sorry the reality is not like in some tv movies with dogs and childrens )You can keep a very good relation with your dogs even if they live outside, of course that a dog pack is not so harsh like an wolf pack, but inside this dog pack are many good rules for a puppy, like the respect for the oldest and the guardian behaviour. Also i am sure , just watching them, that they live more happy playing with each other in the dog way, than living inside where are a lot of restrictions. In your house maybe are few, in mine are many because is smaller and we are many, each one with his own "bad habit" hahaha. Is what i said. No man can replace another dog when is about playing or teaching another puppy how to behave in a dog pack. In my little girl's pack is a kind of solidarity wich is not like human friendship with a dog. If you have many dogs and you are vet you understand this.This kind of life in a dog pack is very good for my small wolfdog, nobody can replace the experience and the life lessons from the older dog.Why to say that an owner of wolfdog can't understand his dogs just because he live outside? My house is not big, but my yard i think is large enough.I am sorry is not bigger but is inside a town, not in the country side.The bond can be, no matter where your wolfdog live. Is such a falsity to pretend you are in the same pack only because you sleep with your wolfdog in the bed. Hahaha. Of course they are family outside too. A real wolf or dog pack anyway is far away from human rules is what i said and what you wrote confirm this is the truth. Even if you own a dog pack, i think you do not need to sleep with a wolfdog in house to have a bond with him. Is enough to understand him.Is not that i know everything, of course i have many things to learn, i am eager to know new things, but only when you keep a good sense of reality. As i admire and i respect wolves, i think is better to keep my wolfdog near her ancestors path, is just my oppinion. You want to say that wolf traits in a wolfdog are a bad thing? Well i admire the wolf trait in a wolfdog.I wonder why many breeders want to keep that trait in him?!Finally, if that guy, in that documentary about wolves, was able to establish a bond with a free wolf, a kind of bond that shows respect for their way to be, an owner can do the same with his wolfdog no matter where he live. Also are many good working dogs, including german shepherds from working line, who live only in large pens or in paddocks. And why some think that this dog is not good like a guardian one and i should buy another one?If can be a rescue dog and i admire such dogs, why a wolfdog can't be a guardian dog ?!I have an open mind to learn other things, but you all must understand another oppinion very different from your mentality, that living with an wolfdog inside is simply not our way to be and never will be. Like me are others and this way to understand the life, where the dog has his place and the human another one, will not make all who thinks in another way, bad owners of dogs. If i tell to my aunt who is the owner of a rottweiller puppy that she must sleep with his dog in the house or in the bed, because some guys on a forum think like that and are used to do so with their own dog, she will die of laughting )So each one can keep the dog as he/she want but not try to tell others what to do. Ah and my aunt is more than 60 years old hahaha That is a such a good joke for 1 april to tell her that she is not a good owner and the animal protection will take his dog, because she did not slept in bed with his rotty during winter hahaha

[Tana]

Yukidomari and Angelika i really do not want to visit your houses). I am sure my wolfdog Tana at 5 months old, can find there a nice spot eventually and something to do undisturbed. But i am still a "misguided romantic" like many normal people here, millions i may say, who have dogs outside all the time, from many races, from many years and use them for guarding houses.They never imagined that are people who think they should keep the dog inside and instead they must protect the dog to sleep well hahaha So i still keep my family inside winter and dog outside and not viceversa. Have a pleasant night with your dogs )) Is late here so excuse me...

[yukidomari]

you are welcome not to visit

I have no problem if you want to keep your dog outside - but I find it hilarious that somehow it's associated with better temperament for training or working, or that a house with a dog inside constantly has shit in it...

I also don't understand the correlation between interactions with dogs and dogs learning from one another, with living outside..

and lastly, most normal people seek to have a domesticated dog to keep companionship and/or for working, not to somehow have a fantasy that keeping a domesticated dog outside returns it to some wild state.

[vila]

I now see that there must be a cultural difference to the way of thinking about this subject. In fact I would say that for me it almost seems I'm trapped in Twilight zone episode, where the person has all of their point of views different from yours. It's also like listening to someone from the past, at least like 50 years ago when animals had no place being in the house. Looks like the majority of Romanian people keep dogs outside, but most countries here in Europe and USA don't have a problem with that I guess. That of course doesn't mean all dogs sleep on beds! If there is one thing I hope Tana at least sees that the indoor arrangement doens't necessarily make a dog unuseful. Vila has strong guarding instincts and she still guards the house. The instinct has more to do with character and genetics. Also a socialized dog is also one who has dog friends. That is why we are almost never alone on our walks and trips, she learned a lot of good behavior from her many constant dog friends (at least 30) and they helped me a lot. Being with two dogs in one place is just 1 life experience for her in my point of view. Do you take them for walks or trips so they learn new things, new smells and tastes? I'm just asking because there seems to be no mentioning of actually doing something with your dogs. Or is that also a cultural difference? And I'm being serious, not trying to be sarcastic.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Tana I think you got some things wrong. You can have a good bond to a dog living outside if you spend a lot of time with it and also a lot of time with it alone without other dogs. Also a dog indoors can learn the same things from other dogs like living outside. If you don´t want dogs in your house that is your decision as long as your dog gets enough attention it doesn´t matter that much.
What people deny here is that dogs that are kept in the house are not as good as guardians or on other work - and by the way it is proofen that children that grow up with pets are healthier than the totally clean kept ones.

Of course wolfdogs (CSW ones and not Saarloos or Hybrids) can be good guards but also if you want protection going further than just to protect your area you will find that they will only protect you outside if they see you as a member of their pack why else should they bother. My dogs all are good guards but also they guard when we are not at home or when they get the feeling we need help, otherwise they will tolerate everybody without being especially told.
Also about the wolf -traits: To guard is absolutely no wolf trait, to follow any commands is not wolf trait, to bond to people is no wolf trait (to have some kind of relationship of tolerating somebody is something very different to bonding) if you want to get some kind of true relationsship to a wolf you have to handraise it and this relationship will be very different to the one you will have to a dog. So if I want any wolf traits in my wolfdogs I want the endurance, the physical fitness, the nose and the cleverness but for sure not the wolflike character as I know very well that wolves can never be good pets.

Ina

[Shadowlands]

oops - sorry...

[tupacs2legs]

[quote=Tana;448784]

Do you really think that such dog who slept all his life in the house, if some day is lost in the wilderness, is able to survive and adapt,

one of my siberian huskies,born in my house,lives in my house managed to survive one month on his own....

also my oldest csv makes himself as small as a poodle curled up next to me on my bed..

the theory a working dog should be kept outside stems from old gundog theories that the dog starved of attention will work better for you

....also,i dont want a pet wolf i want my csv's which bond very strongly to their humans....equally left to their own devices,outside,with no boundaries taught ,will act 'wild' through boredom and lack of socialisation