de Louba Tar kennel

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

I was very amazed when I was reading this topic.
A friend of mine has two dogs from this kennel and I can asure you that they were in good condition when he got them!
These two dogs have very good manners, looking great, are in good shape and are kindly to people they know.
When a breeder loves to have their dogs a bit thin is that forbidden?? Its up to the new owner to keep it that way or to change it, if dogs are to fat you have lots of trouble to get them on a diet.
In the reaction of mrs. Keizer I understood that you, Paul, left 7 dogs with her when you went to Spain! So if this person is not good to her dogs why did you left them with her in the first place? And how about your concerns to the dogs? Did you not have any concerns when you left your dogs with her? Strange ain't it, because when it its to your personal benefit, you do not mind to leave your own dogs with you.
In my personal opinion you have a personal vendetta against this breeder, so please keep it to yourself or to the person involved instead of doing some backstabbing on a public forum.
The pictures shown could be have taken at any kennel, because we never see a name sign or something only some kennels. You stated you have pictures of the kennels you build yourselve there, they were made in summer and you used them for your own promotion, so be a man and show them also to everybody here.
The breeder is much concerned with the dogs, much more than to her own concern, when people who can not cope with the dogs because of their strong temper, spirit and caracter she always takes them back instead of leaving them to theirselves! And this was also in the time you were there I'm sure!!
What I find very strange is that it took you 18 months to go away and also a long time to put all this at the forum. If you are that concerned with the dogs in my opinion I never should take that much time to expell this breeder, so that is also a bit strange ain't it??
Your excuse that you were afraid of the French autorities is also a bit week, these autorithies are still the same so the risk for the dogs still there is the same!

hi, my dogs were left with one of corries friends called Henery who lives in Reims, so that rules that one out,,, i have also explained why i stayed 18mth and also why it has taken so long to bring the photos out, its all in previuos posts, i have no personal vendetta, so you say dogs come back with stong temper, spirit or caracter, This is because no one had time to socialise the pups as there was to much work with the 100 plus other dogs ,, some of the photos are in pens i built.. i have nothing to hide, my wife and i also spent some of our own savings on material,,, all the photos were taken at de louba tar kennels they are now part of the evidence that the authorities have, you must thing i am stupid to make false photos then give them as evidense, if you think the dogs in the photos are A BIT THIN , a bit thin is an under statement now have another look before you write any more silly remaks, the dogs look like something that has been abandoned and running the streets for 3 mths living of scraps,, in uk you would be arrested for having animals this thin,, my friends who came to wittness these dogs cried when i showed them around the kennels, NO ANIMAL DESERVES TO LIVE LIKE THIS AND I CONDEM ANYONE WHO THINKS OTHERWISE, PAUL

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Furyous

PICS show in this forum ? ok dogs not best coat /look skinny ...

Are you veterinarian or student? I think not, so you're not able to valuate the health of these dogs nor by photos.
Anyone who know a little bit how shoud look like a healty dog see that these dogs are really under wheight!!! That is not only "she like skinny dogs" these dogs seems starving, photos cannot be the perfect way to judge details about dogs when we see the breed quality, thats almost because we not see the dogs move so we cannot have much idea about his angles as have some proficional photografers who are able to hiden little problems, after all photos are used for some breeders for judge theys litters quality in some ways, but this situation is completly different of that was show here and so, this excuse is not valid for save the skin of a bad breeder.

You can easy see by fotos all the rib's of the dogs, the coxal bone and the collumn what need more for say that these dogs really have problems and need quickly a good treatment?! If someone here touch these dogs will see the size of the problem, we can already see the bones by photos when have the coat hiden that ( too the summer coat), you probably will be able to study bones anatomy touching then! The dogs body condition won't seems worsers because raining or not, is possible value by the photo that Mirka do, and the dog was in show.

Originally Posted by Furyous

adult reaction is for me do with legal authorities what yu think but not write like propaganda

So you really think that someone will do that on public without have already all right with the law? without have real proof's? or who knows, as you supose first, only for 'vengance'?
Back to the reallity, if someone do that without all right and real proof's will be condemn for calumny and defamation.

[Joyce]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Are you veterinarian or student? I think not, so you're not able to valuate the health of these dogs nor by photos.
.

Strange....because that it exactly wat has happening in this topic all the time by everyone and especially Paul: valuate the health of these dogs by photos......

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Joyce

Strange....because that it exactly wat has happening in this topic all the time by everyone and especially Paul: valuate the health of these dogs by photos......

I think that you must read complet for understand the point

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Anyone who know a little bit how shoud look like a healty dog see that these dogs are really under wheight!!! That is not only "she like skinny dogs" these dogs seems starving, photos cannot be the perfect way to judge details about dogs when we see the breed quality, thats almost because we not see the dogs move so we cannot have much idea about his angles as have some proficional photografers who are able to hiden little problems, after all photos are used for some breeders for judge theys litters quality in some ways, but this situation is completly different of that was show here and so, this excuse is not valid for save the skin of a bad breeder.

I means that suposed because only lack someone arrive here saying that is completly normal CzW look like an anorexic Azawak's and that these dogs are healty and happy and that they're a little bit fat, that what we see not exist and that it was the fothos who makes they seems like that, that all that is a fothoshop work or product of our imagination.

[Joyce]

Originally Posted by pacino

so you say dogs come back with stong temper, spirit or caracter, This is because no one had time to socialise the pups as there was to much work with the 100 plus other dogs

What I was saying is that if people who took a dog of this breed, not normally think they have such a strong breed. So they can not cope with the breed themselves. They made the wrong choice by taking such a dog and were more better to have another dog like a golden retriever or something. If you choose for a czech you need to know enough of the dog to cope with it. People do not often know that. By that time the dogs always can go back to her. So this has nothing to do with socialise the pups. They most socialise when they are with their new owner, if they can cope with the dog no problems at all, as I can see with the two dogs my friend has from this breeder.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

So this has nothing to do with socialise the pups. They most socialise when they are with their new owner, if they can cope with the dog no problems at all, as I can see with the two dogs my friend has from this breeder.

No, the socialising MUST start at the breeder already. The most important socialising period window is opened only from about 5 to 12 weeks of age of the puppy. That´s too short time to ignore the pups psychical needs and just leave it to the new owner, especially if he/she is inexperienced.

Not to mention, that nobody should sell CSW to owner, who cannot cope. Sure, mistakes happen and we cannot always guess, what will happen in future, but mass producers and puppy mills are known to sell to anyone to make profit, ignoring the welfare of the pups. Saying that the pup can always go back, if things don´t work, is rather horrible. Sure, it is nice if it can, but it should be only in critical situations, not as a rule. Such master changes are terrible for such inteligent dog as CSW.

[Joyce]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

No, the socialising MUST start at the breeder already. The most important socialising period window is opened only from about 5 to 12 weeks of age of the puppy. That´s too short time to ignore the pups psychical needs and just leave it to the new owner, especially if he/she is inexperienced.

Not to mention, that nobody should sell CSW to owner, who cannot cope. Sure, mistakes happen and we cannot always guess, what will happen in future, but mass producers and puppy mills are known to sell to anyone to make profit, ignoring the welfare of the pups. Saying that the pup can always go back, if things don´t work, is rather horrible. Sure, it is nice if it can, but it should be only in critical situations, not as a rule. Such master changes are terrible for such inteligent dog as CSW.

You must be very educated or certain if you can see somebody who cannot cope a CWS and then do not sell a CWS to this person. Normally a pup will give not the main problem, but usually the dogs that are have their puber period.
I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

You must be very educated or certain if you can see somebody who cannot cope a CWS and then do not sell a CWS to this person. Normally a pup will give not the main problem, but usually the dogs that are have their puber period.

Please, read my post very carefully, before replying. I said:

Not to mention, that nobody should sell CSW to owner, who cannot cope. Sure, mistakes happen and we cannot always guess, what will happen in future, but mass producers and puppy mills are known to sell to anyone to make profit, ignoring the welfare of the pups.

I disagree that the new owners can easily cope with a puppy than with teenage dog. I´ve heard from other breeders about puppies given back at age of 2-3 months, because the new owner found them too wild, too aggressive , too temperament... The pups were normal, but the new owners were not able to cope, perhaps with a labrador, maybe. Yes, second stage is the teenage dog, but once the owner made it up to here through all the destroyed furniture, eaten shoes, socks and kitchen utensils, there´s chance he´ll stand by his dog.

Originally Posted by Joyce

I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

Are you kidding? So you say, that she keeps 119 dogs in kennels built for 49 for the love of the dogs? Sorry, but I don´t believe it, even if there was actually less than 119 skinny dogs. Even owning 49 dogs for me and breeding on them is not for me breeding for love, care, health and improvement of the breed, but for money. In this I agree totally with what Ina and Annomon said here.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

Please, read my post very carefully, before replying. I said:


I disagree that the new owners can easily cope with a puppy than with teenage dog. I´ve heard from other breeders about puppies given back at age of 2-3 months, because the new owner found them too wild, too aggressive , too temperament... The pups were normal, but the new owners were not able to cope, perhaps with a labrador, maybe. Yes, second stage is the teenage dog, but once the owner made it up to here through all the destroyed furniture, eaten shoes, socks and kitchen utensils, there´s chance he´ll stand by his dog.



Are you kidding? So you say, that she keeps 119 dogs in kennels built for 49 for the love of the dogs? Sorry, but I don´t believe it, even if there was actually less than 119 skinny dogs. Even owning 49 dogs for me and breeding on them is not for me breeding for love, care, health and improvement of the breed, but for money. In this I agree totally with what Ina and Annomon said here.

hi i have photos of every dog in every kennel or pen all taken on same day, also with me were my friends from Holland who also took photos of all dogs, with all dogs and counting two litters of puppies there was total of 119 dogs, i have photos as do my friends in Holland, if you look i will put photo on my wed site you can see young czech and saarloos in ONE pen 7 dogs, paul

[Joyce]

Mirkawolf, please read my message also carefully, because I did not say:
- that the new owners can easily cope with a puppy
I said that a pup will not give the main problem

As I also did not say:
- So you say, that she keeps 119 dogs in kennels built for 49 for the love of the dogs?
This is wat I have said:
I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

[Mirkawolf]

Joyce, I´ve read you very carefully and that´s why I said what I said. And even after your last post, I don´t mean to change a word on what I´ve said.
Sorry.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Joyce

This is wat I have said:
I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

Following what you have written, she is breeding to earn money to keep an enormous amount of dogs. No matter if there are 119 of them, she definetly has a lot more than the normal amount of a hobby breeder. And dogs cost quite a lot of money if you keep them properly. If this would be true I know several stories like hers from my work in an animal-shelter, they always end up with the police getting the dogs out of incredible circumstances and an animal-shelter full of dirty and ill dogs. And you are right those people don´t have that many dogs, only about three times what they can cope with.
Out of my personal experiences does what you write make things worse and Paul´s story more reliable.

And she needs money for herself too, so there is an easy way to find out if she produces puppies for a living. Maybe somebody here who seems to know her well can tell us what job she has to make up for her own needs, her profession shouldn´t be a personal secret.

Ina

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

What I was saying is that if people who took a dog of this breed, not normally think they have such a strong breed. So they can not cope with the breed themselves. They made the wrong choice by taking such a dog and were more better to have another dog like a golden retriever or something. If you choose for a czech you need to know enough of the dog to cope with it. People do not often know that. By that time the dogs always can go back to her. So this has nothing to do with socialise the pups. They most socialise when they are with their new owner, if they can cope with the dog no problems at all, as I can see with the two dogs my friend has from this breeder.

why do you keep making me embrasses you on line, if you think socialisation starts with new owner then it must be done different where you live,, it starts much sooner i can assure you, paul