in the U.S.

[wolfdogs16]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, we know it. "Thanks" to producers of wolfhybrids in US have new owners of CZ wolfdogs problems with registration thear pups with pedigree in US.

Im here as an ambassador, and I'm not a bad guy. Don't think for a moment I support bad breeders, bad owners, and unethical display of wolfdogs in the U.S. I use my high mid content (my avatar) as an good will wolfdog, in education, and support of the "breed". Ive been fighting this battle since 1984....

We don't call them "wolfhybrids"..only the uneducated here do... a hybrid cant reproduce.......and a hybrid is a cross between two species, the dog and the wolf are same species.... its a wolfdog.

Henceforth, maybe thats the conflict... the local Animal Control facilities , and Fish and Wildlife now refer to them as wolfdogs..... and you call your breed a wolfdog...... catch 22

[saschia]

Originally Posted by wolfdogs16

... and you call your breed a wolfdog...... catch 22

Well, that's because it is the name, name vlciak (in Slovak) or vlcak (in Czech) means a dog with wolf-like exterior. It is often (although incorrectly) used by general public also for german shepherds. Wolfdog is a direct and very correct translation.
Although wolves and dogs are the same species, there is a very important difference between wolf/dog and dog/dog "mixes", while there is almost none or very little difference between wolfdog/wolfdog, wolfdog/dog or dog/dog "mixes". Therefore referring to a wolf/dog "mix" as to wolfdog is not correct. And please take into account that the term "wolfdog" is older than our knowledge that wolf and dog is actually the same species. Therefore if abandoning the incorrect term wolf-dog hybrid, officials should find their own and new term. Maybe wolf-dog cross. But definitly not wolfdog.

[roo]

wolfdogs16,

I'm afraid I will have to disagree with one portion of your definition of "hybrid".

I may need to go back and crack open my 8th-grade biology textbook, but I'm pretty sure that the ability to reproduce (fertile/infertile) is not one of the defining characterisitics of the classic term "hybrid". I know that most people are familiar with one of the more common examples, horse + donkey = mule (sterile), but I beleive that this is just one example outcome and not necessarily the rule. Hybridization occurs all the time in nature, albeit plant, animal, natural, forced, or test-tube engineered. Most of the time the natural "cross-breeding" occurs as a result of population shift due to ecological changes.

I read your statement indicating that you use your efforts in education and support of the "breed", however I was confused as to which breed you were referring to. If you would elaborate, I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to get a better understanding of your particular situation.

Please feel free to contact me via private message, we can exchange email addresses, and I'd be more than happy to try and answer any of your questions about the Czechoslovakian Vlcak breed, its origin and 50+ year history, and my CSV experience in the United States. I would love to hear from you and am always eager and willing to share more about this very unique European breed!

Thanks,

Robert

[wolfdogs16]

Originally Posted by roo

wolfdogs16,

I'm afraid I will have to disagree with one portion of your definition of "hybrid".

I may need to go back and crack open my 8th-grade biology textbook, but I'm pretty sure that the ability to reproduce (fertile/infertile) is not one of the defining characterisitics of the classic term "hybrid". I know that most people are familiar with one of the more common examples, horse + donkey = mule (sterile), but I beleive that this is just one example outcome and not necessarily the rule. Hybridization occurs all the time in nature, albeit plant, animal, natural, forced, or test-tube engineered. Most of the time the natural "cross-breeding" occurs as a result of population shift due to ecological changes.

I read your statement indicating that you use your efforts in education and support of the "breed", however I was confused as to which breed you were referring to. If you would elaborate, I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to get a better understanding of your particular situation.

Please feel free to contact me via private message, we can exchange email addresses, and I'd be more than happy to try and answer any of your questions about the Czechoslovakian Vlcak breed, its origin and 50+ year history, and my CSV experience in the United States. I would love to hear from you and am always eager and willing to share more about this very unique European breed!

Thanks,

Robert

In prior definitions of the term "hybrid", fertile animals were part of the scenerio, but with the change in term to "hybrid = a mating of two difference species" infertile comes into play. This is all recent. have you seen the "liger"....(tiger/lion cross), even those species is the same, its infertile.... there are gray areas all over the term.. but its accepted that a hybrid is a cross between two species... and when the dog and wolf were determined to be the same species, USDA stated a cross between a wolf and dog is not a hybrid........... we ran with it. the term "hybrid" instills the "old fear" of the wolfdog cross.

well, "breed"..we both know the wolfdog in the U.S. is not a "breed".. but it just a term used to describe the animal sometimes..........no more no less. The "breed" is domestic by definition, but not in all states... we never expect the wolf dog cross to become a breed, there are too many variables in the blood lines, not only the wolves involved, but especially the dogs involved....

[roo]

Changing word definitions, issues with language translations, same species but differences in DNA, casual use of the word "breed", etc.

I think we can all understand the potential for confusion and miscommunication under these circumstances. I greatly respect your rescue work and the commitment that it must take for your organization concerned with the well-being of various American wolf and dog crosses.

As I believe it has been clearly shown here, our discussions on this forum are focused on the European Czechoslovakian Vlcak breed. A lot of information on the origin and history of this breed can be found on this page if you are interested: http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/44.html

It is my experience and belief that many of the issues pertaining to various legal definitions in the U.S. that you have referred to are not applicable to the Czechoslovakian Vlcak breed. As such, the discussion of your specific issues on an international forum dedicated to the Czechoslovakian Vlcak will probably only create more confusion with the aforementioned differences in definitions and international translation.

However, I sincerely wish you the best and hope that your efforts to improve the welfare of neglected or unwanted animals is successful. Good Luck!

-Robert

[wolfdogs16]

I take it you know the Texas Two Step.

I merely joined this forum to exchange information between fellow canine owners resembling the wolf, which I have a passion for and support on all fronts. I have always admired your breed and simply came here to exchange communication. For some reason, you have put up a road block. Maybe you did not read my other posts on other sections. I have defended your animals on more than one occasion with authorities and saved the owners from legal action.

I am here as a friend. Not to stir trouble. You are adding ingredients to the pot that I would not add, nor intend to add.

peace.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by wolfdogs16

In prior definitions of the term "hybrid", fertile animals were part of the scenerio, but with the change in term to "hybrid = a mating of two difference species" infertile comes into play.

This is mostly true, but as far as I know, crosses between wolves and jackals, although there is no doubt that those are two separate species, are fertile. Infertility is not a result of speciation, but mostly the reason. It is mostly due to different number of chromosomes, which cannot recombine properly and therefore not create functional gametes.

Originally Posted by wolfdogs16

... and when the dog and wolf were determined to be the same species, USDA stated a cross between a wolf and dog is not a hybrid...

Funny, why is then the rabbies vaccine not accepted for wolfs and wolf/dog mixes? As far as I know, this is the major problem in keeping wolf/dogs in some states...

[jaygorto]

my dog is the friendliest dog i have ever owned. very friendly towards all dogs and people. She does bark or snap back though if a dog gets in her face or snaps at her. I do a lot of off leash hiking and mt. biking w/ her also and besides chasing deer which is usually corrected she is great off leash.

[wolfdogs16]

Originally Posted by saschia

Well, that's because it is the name, name vlciak (in Slovak) or vlcak (in Czech) means a dog with wolf-like exterior. It is often (although incorrectly) used by general public also for german shepherds. Wolfdog is a direct and very correct translation.

Although wolves and dogs are the same species, there is a very important difference between wolf/dog and dog/dog "mixes", while there is almost none or very little difference between wolfdog/wolfdog, wolfdog/dog or dog/dog "mixes". Therefore referring to a wolf/dog "mix" as to wolfdog is not correct. .

1st paragraph. i understand.

2nd paragraph.. I dont understand...other than, there is a difference, both physical and behavior in a wolf-dog mix.... those differences, however..vary greatly in the amount of wolf in the dog... the physical difference will be pretty much depended on content, ie: 50% wolf 50% dog.. you will have half wolf physcical characteristics... but... the content of wolf spred to the pups from a gene standpoint can vary greatly. For instance, lets take the perfect match up: a wolf and dog. they mate. 3 pups are born... one of those pups might act almost totally like a dog... another may act like a wolf...and the third may act like an even tempered mix... thats because the genes inherited vary so much.

We see nothing wrong with the term "wolfdog" is a wolf and dog mixed... there is DNA difference between a pure wolf and a dog...

[saschia]

Originally Posted by wolfdogs16

2nd paragraph.. I dont understand...other than, there is a difference, both physical and behavior in a wolf-dog mix.... those differences, however..vary greatly in the amount of wolf in the dog... the physical difference will be pretty much depended on content, ie: 50% wolf 50% dog.. you will have half wolf physcical characteristics... but... the content of wolf spred to the pups from a gene standpoint can vary greatly. For instance, lets take the perfect match up: a wolf and dog. they mate. 3 pups are born... one of those pups might act almost totally like a dog... another may act like a wolf...and the third may act like an even tempered mix... thats because the genes inherited vary so much.

No it is not lie that. The first generation will be almost the same, because all puppies have one copy of each gene from its mother and one from its father. But, the difference between wolf/dog and dog/dog offspring is marcant, because the behavioral phenotype of wolves is more dominant than that o dogs. You will get animals that, if not introduced to something in very young age, will be afraid of that, unlike dogs and woldfogd (menaning the breed).
Only in F2 generation is there a possibility of 25% of pups (if the genetics of behavior are Mendelian, which they are not) behaving like a dog (while they can look completely like wolf).

But, if you work with wolf/dog mixes,than you should know that there is a big difference between behavior of such animals (and the higher the wolf content the bigger the difference usually) and dogs.