wolf percentage

[Rona]

Originally Posted by tikaani

to how many generations itll take for thwere to be no more wolf blood as over here your not aloud any wolf blood in a dog, but if cwd has got to the point were there wasnt any wolf blood in the generation then you would be aloud one tecnacly, not interested in looks or anything like that, purly hyperthetical, so do u know? thanks

Yes, we do. Idefinite number of generations. For two reasons:
1. There will always be wolf genes if CSVs are crossed only with CSVs. Genes do not evaporate with time... it is not alcohol

Their statistical percentage may vary in particular dogs depending on mathematical calucations but that doesn't mean anything. There is more to genetics than figures... a higher wolf blood percentage CSV may be very much like an ordinary dog, and a low wolf blood percentage - more independent, shier, etc. depending WHICH genes were activated in a specific match, i.e. gene combination.

But you need to remember that in the Pohranicny Straze Military Kennel methodical work was carried out towards selection of dogs that would be as doggish, trainable and work-loving as GSDs, and as healthy and strong as wolves. Although nobody cared for their appearanace, there were no random matchings! The first hybrids were trained for work and later tested. Those that did not pass the working tests were eliminated from breeding. The animals of the strongest 'wolfish' nature (most independent and shy) were simply NOT used for further breeding, because they were useless for service, however some of their genes remained in the population and their remote "echos" now contribute to the differences among particular CSVs

That's why people who know the breed put so great emphasis on the need to train CSVs and give them opportunity to work - this is the most basic selected element of their nature and at the same time the most valuable trait of their character. It's just a great pity that some people do not understand this and treat them as show dogs only. I agree with Hanka that it's a geat waste of their potential.

2. There are plenty of wolf genes in every dog of any breed. If this was not the case wolves and dogs could not be mixed with each other. If wolves' genes were to be eliminated from dogs, all dogs would have to be exterminated

[tikaani]

Originally Posted by Rona

Yes, we do. Idefinite number of generations. For two reasons:
1. There will always be wolf genes if CSVs are crossed only with CSVs. Genes do not evaporate with time... it is not alcohol

Their statistical percentage may vary in particular dogs depending on mathematical calucations but that doesn't mean anything. There is more to genetics than figures... a higher wolf blood percentage CSV may be very much like an ordinary dog, and a low wolf blood percentage - more independent, shier, etc. depending WHICH genes were activated in a specific match, i.e. gene combination.

But you need to remember that in the Pohranicny Straze Military Kennel methodical work was carried out towards selection of dogs that would be as doggish, trainable and work-loving as GSDs, and as healthy and strong as wolves. Although nobody cared for their appearanace, there were no random matchings! The first hybrids were trained for work and later tested. Those that did not pass the working tests were eliminated from breeding. The animals of the strongest 'wolfish' nature (most independent and shy) were simply NOT used for further breeding, because they were useless for service, however some of their genes remained in the population and their remote "echos" now contribute to the differences among particular CSVs

That's why people who know the breed put so great emphasis on the need to train CSVs and give them opportunity to work - this is the most basic selected element of their nature and at the same time the most valuable trait of their character. It's just a great pity that some people do not understand this and treat them as show dogs only. I agree with Hanka that it's a geat waste of their potential.

2. There are plenty of wolf genes in every dog of any breed. If this was not the case wolves and dogs could not be mixed with each other. If wolves' genes were to be eliminated from dogs, all dogs would have to be exterminated

hi i understand about the wolf blood never leaving the blood line but if defra looked at it like that we wouldnt be aloud any dogs over here, what im lookin for is a hyperthetical responce kinda. like if the bood percentage is 50/50 the next generation is 25 etc, this is how defra do it not my idea. but tecnicaly after a certain amount litters the percentage would be 0, would it not? and if that is so, tecnicaly we would be aloud them over here

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by tikaani

hi i understand about the wolf blood never leaving the blood line but if defra looked at it like that we wouldnt be aloud any dogs over here, what im lookin for is a hyperthetical responce kinda. like if the bood percentage is 50/50 the next generation is 25 etc, this is how defra do it not my idea. but tecnicaly after a certain amount litters the percentage would be 0, would it not? and if that is so, tecnicaly we would be aloud them over here

But, the thing is, technically you are ALLOWED to have them there!
Perhaps breeding is a different issue, I do not know about that, because I think my husband was more asking about the problem of actually bringing CSW into UK and having it there. Not sure if he asked about breeding, too.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by tikaani

hi i understand about the wolf blood never leaving the blood line but if defra looked at it like that we wouldnt be aloud any dogs over here, what im lookin for is a hyperthetical responce kinda. like if the bood percentage is 50/50 the next generation is 25 etc, this is how defra do it not my idea. but tecnicaly after a certain amount litters the percentage would be 0, would it not? and if that is so, tecnicaly we would be aloud them over here

To obtain such hypothetical dissapearance of wolf genes you'd need to breed CSV with ordinary dogs.... So carry on: 50/50, 25/75, 12,5/87,%, 6,25/93,25 ... etc. Pure maths, isn't it?

Just to find out in the end that any dog's DNA differs from wolf's DNA by 1% or something like this.

But in this case we don't talk of CSV breeding any more, because a CSV pup must be born from CSV parents.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Rona

To obtain such hypothetical dissapearance of wolf genes you'd need to breed CSV with ordinary dogs.... So carry on: 50/50, 25/75, 12,5/87,%, 6,25/93,25 ... etc. Pure maths, isn't it?

Sorry, I made a mistake. The highest wolf genes amount in CSV is around 30%, so you need to start from 30/70

[Hanka]

I think, wolfdogs have not over 30%.

[Angelika]

simple question - simple answer:
a csw with 32 % who is mated with a csw having 28 % do have pups 32 % + 28 % = 60 % : 2 = 30 %.
If this "child" of 30 % will be mated with another csw of 34 % = 64 % : 2 = 32 %.

So again you will never reach zero.

cheers
Angelika

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Angelika

simple question - simple answer:
a csw with 32 % who is mated with a csw having 28 % do have pups 32 % + 28 % = 60 % : 2 = 30 %.
If this "child" of 30 % will be mated with another csw of 34 % = 64 % : 2 = 32 %.

I think two issues are being mixed here:
1. the genetics
2. the distance from the last "fresh" wolf blood insertion, which has nothing to do with genetic calculations or percentages.

I don't belive people in DEFRA are that ignorant as to think that after 100 generations of matching CSV with CSV the GSD's genes would be earased from them, so why should the wolf's be? Maybe they think that if for several generations the dogs "behaved themselves" it would mean the 'wilderness' in them was tamed, but this argument is even more absurd in the light of the possibility of breeding "dangerous" breeds and the fact that even the Yorshire terrier may be a wild beast if badly socialised and treated.

I think DEFRA people don't want to legitimize the breed for totally different reasons, which I think I understand now better than before.

Still, it has nothing to do with allowing CSVs to travel to or to live in the UK to which there are no barriers other than for other breeds/dogs.