"Suspicious" dogs list

michaelundinaeichhorn · 27-10-2008, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

A DNA database for hereditary diseases and a worning list of inbreeding diseases, is not bad ideas, but it seams like it is only you and me Elf that are interested in this.

Hopefully in the future more breeders and oners will join us

Did it ever occur to you that more experienced breeders/owners realize what you are asking for?
A DNA database has to be international and can´t be build up till tomorrow and I would surely not write any suspicions about any dogs into an open forum without any proof.
There have been a lot of suspicions and rumors in the past, most of them were wrong. Who has eyes to see and spends time to travel don´t need lists of suspicions.

Regards Ina

elf · 27-10-2008, 21:28

Ina, that's why I wrote documented.
About this dog-example, Margo wrote on the french forum: "Orlik z Rosíkova is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems by CzW (the breeders in origin countries a very carefull and try not to make inbreeds and in no way strong inbreeds on this dog)".
The current way these kind on informations are only available for few people, more efficient cooperation is needed. Especially for country like mine where there is no breeding commission. We currently have a strong inbreed on this dog and with easier access to information this maybe would have been avoided.

Mikael · 27-10-2008, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Did it ever occur to you that more experienced breeders/owners realize what you are asking for?
A DNA database has to be international and can´t be build up till tomorrow and I would surely not write any suspicions about any dogs into an open forum without any proof.
There have been a lot of suspicions and rumors in the past, most of them were wrong. Who has eyes to see and spends time to travel don´t need lists of suspicions.

Regards Ina

No I do not se way it has to be international, if a breeder takes DNA tests on heas dogs, he can put the results in this database together whit the HD, ED and PRA. but I agree it would be good if a CsV club was responsible fore this database.

This way it would be easier to choose an appropriate mating partner and fore the buyers to choose a healty puppy.

In the begining it will be very few dogs in this database, but whit time I think buyers will request DNA results.
And I think in the future all breeders will have to privide this data.

Yes it will take years to build up this database, but way not start now ???

Best regards / Mikael

Juniorwolf · 28-10-2008, 01:23

I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ?

How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ?
To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ?
And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ?
Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know).

As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think

Rolf

michaelundinaeichhorn · 28-10-2008, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ?

How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ?
To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ?
And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ?
Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know).

As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think

Rolf

Exactly. And to create DNA-Tests for hereditary diseases you need DNA from as much dogs, ill ones and healthy ones, as possible. At the moment there is no DNA-test for any disease in CSW. It is not even 100% sure that the dwarf test will show the same genes as in SWH and GSH.
We till now bred with Slowakian studs, Italien studs, Hungarian studs, Czech studs and German studs. That is the reason why we need an international comparable test. And what would you like to show here on wolfdog.org? The lab registration number of the test? What sense does it make if everybody makes it´s own, not comparable test? There has to be rules how to take the blood samples, which laboratories will take it, who will store and analyse the results and so on. Otherwise the people that cheated before will cheat with the DNA as well.
DNA-tests surely will come and there will be an international agreement about ist one day, but not tomorrow.

Coming back to the suspicions. Do you really think that Margo (sorry Margo, I just take you for an example

) said this and there is a rumor is a proof? Imagine someone ill minded would say your dog has some heriditary problems and others follow him and your dog comes on this privately kept list. This has been done before many times. There will be no help from DNA test for open hair.

Ina

Rona · 28-10-2008, 09:05

Ina, I agree with you 100%.

If somebody notices some imperfection or fault in his dog and wants to share/warn/inform breeders about it - it's fine. This would be fair and very honest.

Still, the breeder may see the fault, but have no idea which ancestor is responsible for it.

However, to make an official database responsibly, the information should be complete or almost complete, which of course is impossible. Remember that people own/breed dogs for many reasons. Some love the breed and truly care for its developlemnt, but there are also individuals whose dogs are expected to make up for their owners' frustrations or lack or successes, not to mention those who breed merely for money.

Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect?

elf · 28-10-2008, 09:24

You will wait more than 10 years to have DNA DB with few diseases, money is money.

A word about jumping behind rumours, look back on P. Winter accusation/rumours thread, 95% of the forum run after it, you can read on the thread I was not and was not saying my hear say as so many did.

This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless. I don't think open debat can be as wrong as you say: affirmations/suspicions can be analysed by many different people (distributed intelligence you said?) and proves/arguments accumulates in one way or in the other way.

The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs, I thought it was a French particularity, but it seems not.

Margo · 28-10-2008, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless.

You right - in the most cases such "private" list are much worser that the official disscusions (or even gentle "fights"). It is always s better to have the chance to disscus something in public because you can not argue with the gossips spread behind your back.

On the other hand I understand the breeders. If you are honest you loose...

Look some topics below...

I really had no problems to publish that one of dogs from my kennel is only 64 cm... The result? Because of being fair and honest I had to read pompous words written by some breedders "the dog is for nothing". Words written by breeders which have dogs with not only one fault but many serious; which have no one but more too small dogs, breed with them but they hide the reality by not making the bonitations (or writting in the bonitation code bigger size than the dogs really are) and not showing the dogs in public places where someone can see them...

The same is with HD-results. In Czech Republic the club choosed the good way and publish all HD-results. They are fair and hide nothing. But what is the result - in some cases the Czech breeders are worser evaluated than some breeders from other countries which send only good HD-result and spread the information "my puppies are much better than the Czech because in CZ some have HD and all my dogs are only HD-A or HD-B"...
I guarantee you than many puppy buyers will choose let say French kennel with 50 dogs bred where you have only 5 dogs with HD-results all of them HD-A (and maybe 10 other dogs which were tested but the results are hidden because the dogs were HD-C, HD-D and HD-E) and not the Czech kennel where the breeder has 20 puppies - 15 tested with HD-A and HD-B and let's say 3 dogs HD-C. Because in the first case they will see only HD-A results, and by the Czech kennel they will see HD-A, HD-B and HD-C...

Hiding results really works and it is also the reason why so many breeders do not want to publish all information...

So we can make some "statistics" only when all clubs will work together - we can make statistisc of HD but ONLY when we will get all official HD-results... We can not base on the sincerity of the breeders...

Sad but true...

Rona · 28-10-2008, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect?

I meant elf, of course, not Rolf

Quote:

The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs...

Exactly!! Naturally, not all people, but definitely too many.

It's sometimes seems to me that more people are "unhealthily" proud of their dogs than of their spouses, kids or professional achievements

28-10-2008, 09:05	#6
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	Ina, I agree with you 100%. If somebody notices some imperfection or fault in his dog and wants to share/warn/inform breeders about it - it's fine. This would be fair and very honest. Still, the breeder may see the fault, but have no idea which ancestor is responsible for it. However, to make an official database responsibly, the information should be complete or almost complete, which of course is impossible. Remember that people own/breed dogs for many reasons. Some love the breed and truly care for its developlemnt, but there are also individuals whose dogs are expected to make up for their owners' frustrations or lack or successes, not to mention those who breed merely for money. Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect? __________________

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27-10-2008, 21:28	#2
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Ina, that's why I wrote documented. About this dog-example, Margo wrote on the french forum: "Orlik z Rosíkova is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems by CzW (the breeders in origin countries a very carefull and try not to make inbreeds and in no way strong inbreeds on this dog)". The current way these kind on informations are only available for few people, more efficient cooperation is needed. Especially for country like mine where there is no breeding commission. We currently have a strong inbreed on this dog and with easier access to information this maybe would have been avoided.

28-10-2008, 01:23	#4
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ? How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ? To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ? And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ? Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know). As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think Rolf

28-10-2008, 09:24	#7
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	You will wait more than 10 years to have DNA DB with few diseases, money is money. A word about jumping behind rumours, look back on P. Winter accusation/rumours thread, 95% of the forum run after it, you can read on the thread I was not and was not saying my hear say as so many did. This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless. I don't think open debat can be as wrong as you say: affirmations/suspicions can be analysed by many different people (distributed intelligence you said?) and proves/arguments accumulates in one way or in the other way. The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs, I thought it was a French particularity, but it seems not.