Italian bonitations

[Margo]

Originally Posted by rolf

saw most of this bonitation and there was a character test with some figurant, so this Italian bonitation should be valid !
...or am I missing something ?

The owner was with the dog for the whole time?

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

The owner was with the dog for the whole time?

Yes ! ...I did not think of this ?
But is this really so importent, when(I have read and seen) that such famous and experienced jugdes as for example Sona Bognárová, Jindøich Jedlièka and Monika Soukupová have accepted this during a bonitation ? when for example Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

Personally I don`t think one is worse than the other, I think all(also Cz and Sk) bonitations have to have to be exactly the same before some can point fingers at others with small faults ! ...but ofcourse I am not an expert, very experinced in CSW or member of any breedingcommittee, so maybe I am wrong ?

Greetings Rolf

[Nebulosa]

If the dog if with the owner, he is with his pack, its make a huge difference, the dog first see your reaction for take his own reaction agains the helpler, if you're calm why would he be scary? You won't be able to see real character of the dog in this way even a shy dog will have more courageous reaction than normal. It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory.
Surelly a really problematic dog will show his problems even if the owner is at side, but you won't be able to evaluate the real character of the normal dogs

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

If the dog if with the owner, he is with his pack, its make a huge difference, the dog first see your reaction for take his own reaction agains the helpler, if you're calm why would he be scary? You won't be able to see real character of the dog in this way even a shy dog will have more courageous reaction than normal. It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory.
Surelly a really problematic dog will show his problems even if the owner is at side, but you won't be able to evaluate the real character of the normal dogs

But even a shy/nervous dog you can with lot of training make the dog pass the bonitation(and it will still be shy/nervous in normal life), also "normal" dogs who are trained for defence will react very different than not trained dogs, so thise dogs also don`t show their real character, but only how they have learned to react in this situation by training ! when dogs make bonitation in the same place as where they are normaly trained, It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory(just to use your own words).
After all the character test is not very reliable anyway, how can you compare a well trained dog(IPO or similar) with a family dog who have no training, by the same test and within the 5 minutes it takes.
There is so many factors(upbringing, training, long travel, female in heat, new or known territory, etc....) who play a big role in how different dogs will react in thise 5 minutes the character test takes, that is why I question reliability of the character test.
when that is said, do you still think that this one difference in the bonitation makes such a big difference, considred all the other factors that even an experinced jugde impossible can have a full overwiew about, that it is worser than the Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

Still I must say, one is not worser than the other(in my worthless opinion).

Greetings Rolf

[Margo]

Originally Posted by rolf

Yes ! ...I did not think of this ?

Originally Posted by rolf

Personally I don`t think one is worse than the other,

Nebulosa wrote it already... Italian bonitation check if the dog will protect the owner or if the dog will not run away if someone attack the owner (the dog is on the leash so I sure all dogs will pass it because even shy dog can not run away). But it is NOT a CHARACTER test...

Such test says nothing and is for nothing...

Originally Posted by rolf

But is this really so importent, when(I have read and seen) that such famous and experienced jugdes as for example Sona Bognárová, Jindøich Jedlièka and Monika Soukupová have accepted this during a bonitation ?

Ask Sona if somebody said her BEFORE the bonitation that it will be such kind of bonitation? Of course not... So she decided to make her best and (as it is also by the Slovakian bonitation) she already tested the character during the measurements - it is the reason for worser character codes and also why some breeders get crazy. It is also the reason why Mr. Casseli decided to break the bonitation of Miky (he knew that even after changing the character test the dog will get P14)....

Now the Italian club invite only judges which agree to "cooperate".
Now the question for you - could we tell "good judge" about a judge who accept to bonitate as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog animals which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

Originally Posted by rolf

when for example Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

In the second case (height) you are not right because it is not the difference between Czech and Slovakian judges....

Anyway there are some differences - I would not say the differences are between Czech and Slovakian bonitation but mostly between the knowledge of some people who make the bonitations.
Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it...

But as Saschia write - both clubs work on it and I hope not only the (small) differences will be removed but also that there will be some tests which judges / breeding comittee members will pass BEFORE they can make measurements and evaluate the dogs during the bonitations...

[loco]

I think it will be very disapointed when a dog (even standing alone) will be scared off this figurant .
On this picture he has no stick and certain no menace to the dog .

Groette Martine.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by loco

I think it will be very disapointed when a dog (even standing alone) will be scared off this figurant .
On this picture he has no stick and certain no menace to the dog .

Groette Martine.

Well first of all a photo don`t say all, it was just to show that their was a character test, and if you use a stick or not, the dog should react if someone is making an attack towards it(some dogs have bigger comfortzones than others and this is what is tested in the character test in all bonitations).
If a dog is extremly shy/nervous(as claimed earlier) it will for sure not stand all relaxed in this situation on the photo ! ...it would try to get away(even that it can not because of the leash).
Sorry but I am very tired now and will go to sleep, tomorrow I will look closer to all replies and make some more comments

Thanks for the friendly tone thise questions have been replied in, I hope it will continue ...as I wrote earlier, I am no expert or have big experience with CSW, so I am still learning a lot(and hopefully will learn more all life).

Greetings Rolf

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Nebulosa wrote it already... Italian bonitation check if the dog will protect the owner or if the dog will not run away if someone attack the owner (the dog is on the leash so I sure all dogs will pass it because even shy dog can not run away). But it is NOT a CHARACTER test...

Such test says nothing and is for nothing...

Well I don`t give much for the character test anyway(as I explained in another post), so I don`t think this change in the way of how the character test is performed will make a big difference. Another thing is that I am pretty sure that a very shy dog will NOT pass the test even if it is on the leash, it would still TRY to get away(leash or no leash).

Originally Posted by Margo

Ask Sona if somebody said her BEFORE the bonitation that it will be such kind of bonitation? Of course not... So she decided to make her best and (as it is also by the Slovakian bonitation) she already tested the character during the measurements - it is the reason for worser character codes and also why some breeders get crazy. It is also the reason why Mr. Casseli decided to break the bonitation of Miky (he knew that even after changing the character test the dog will get P14)....

All people(also Sona) have the possibility to say no to jugde if it is against her conviction to perform a bonitation, dogshow or whatever in a way that she/he do not agree with(nobody put a gun to her head ...as far as I know ?), about what Mr.Casseli did or why he did it, I don`t know ? because I was not there and I have never spoken with him about it.

Originally Posted by Margo

Now the Italian club invite only judges which agree to "cooperate".
Now the question for you - could we tell "good judge" about a judge who accept to bonitate as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog animals which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

I really don`t think it is up to any jugde to decide if a dog is pure breed or not, this must be problem of the kennelclub who have registered the dog as purebreed, the job of a jugde is to evaluate the exterior at dogshows and also at bonitations where the jugde also have to evaluate the character.

Originally Posted by Margo

In the second case (height) you are not right because it is not the difference between Czech and Slovakian judges....

Ok maybe it is not the jugdes(I am not all sure who do what in a bonitation), but then it is the breedingcommittee`s who have different opinions about height.

Originally Posted by Margo

Anyway there are some differences - I would not say the differences are between Czech and Slovakian bonitation but mostly between the knowledge of some people who make the bonitations.
Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it...

How can one say that one difference is worser than another difference ?
Where goes the limit ? are there any official guidelines for this exact problem ?

Originally Posted by Margo

But as Saschia write - both clubs work on it and I hope not only the (small) differences will be removed but also that there will be some tests which judges / breeding comittee members will pass BEFORE they can make measurements and evaluate the dogs during the bonitations...

If the difference is big or small is very objective, especially if there is no official guidelines for this excat problem.
I am very happy and pleased to hear that SK and Cz clubs are working on it and I really hope that they will come to an agreement on all issues soon and I would be VERY happy if they would take the Character test up for evaluation, so in the future they would have a more wide character test who also takes into consideration the problem about family dogs and trained dogs(IPO or similar).

Sorry for the red color, but I don`t know how to break up the quote in several pieces ? ...so all writing in red is by me !

Greetings Rolf

[woland77]

Italian Bonitation and, character test it is a very serious matter, my English is not as many serious, i wait Massimo for an appropriate translation.. I have personally compared the Italian test, Czech and Slovak, and I have a lot of things to say, talk to you soon..

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by woland

Italian Bonitation and, character test it is a very serious matter, my English is not as many serious, i wait Massimo for an appropriate translation.. I have personally compared the Italian test, Czech and Slovak, and I have a lot of things to say, talk to you soon..

You are very welcome
I think non of the Character tests is very serious, they are too small and have a serious lack of ambition ...I think all 3 tests could be done much better ! My point is just that when non of them are perfect(or even close) then why make such a big fuss about one and not the others ?
A Danish saying(maybe it is international ?) goes like this : "people should sweep infront of their own door, before sweeping infront of others".
meaning : you should not complain about others who is not perfect, if you are not perfect your self

Greetings Rolf

[hanninadina]

It is really really true what you did write Rolf. I don´t understand why people around Margo made that big problem. You had seen german bonitation done by Sona Bogorova. I like her very much. She is a real kind person. But, I cannot understand that she puts real shy dogs with Oc on P1. It were two out of the C litter Zlata Platz. The dogs were real scared. And coming back to main problem. The character test was 3 minutes, 4 minutes. It is nothing!!!

I had to pass character with my briard boy in german club cfh. It needed about 45 minutes for each dog! And not 3 minutes. We had that dog problem from 2000 because pit bull bited a 6 year old boy to death in hamburg. And from that point on we had list for dogs who were not allowed to breed or to bring in into germany. And at that point list dogs had to pass character test. And the briard club test was legaly like from the state character test. But in comparison to character test what is been done in bonitation, it is nothing. So, we all know that the results from italian bonitation were put out of the database since Margo was sure that the Mutaras were brought in the breed. She declares that it is because the italian test is not to compare with czech or slovakian test. But what for? These test are too nothing in comparison to real character test.

And everytime repeating that Miky Passo del Lupo should have bad character, I can only laugh at. I saw him twice, last year and this year. On his own ground without(!) his owner and he was so sweet and kind to me although he did not know me. A foreigner in his own garden. And he came to me and was like a sweety wanted to be touched from me and was all around me in an absolute friendly way. In a way I never saw before from a csw adult male dog! I hope every csw male would be like him and people would not have problems.

Sorry Margo, I like you very very much and I did enjoy very much you wolfdog camp at the end of august. But you are not kind of objectiv I would appreciate. The italian csw are much more dogs and dogs for people and city than every others. And please I know dogs from your litters which get crazy passing 30 m away with others dogs. Are they normal, afraid of what for? These are all behaviours of single dogs. Nothing to say all dogs out of this kennel are so. So please keep cool.

Sure it is your web site. But please 500 puppies in the year in comparison to 60 in germany, 70 in slovakia and 100 in czech allows much more better selection.

Christian

As Rolf wrote, sweap in front of your doors first please before accusing other breeders. Try to be objectiv. Please, it is christmas time! All the best for you all.