Offspring´s

[fenris]

To follow up my prior comment; please have a look at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7779686.stm

[Hanka]

Yes, here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/o218.html

But blood of Rep is not so "interest"= good for rescuing . More interest is Atos z Belesova.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/o218.html

But blood of Rep is not so "interest"= good for rescuing . More interest is Atos z Belesova.

Do the clubs have any sperm bank on this rare lines, or on other old good dogs ???

How long can one keep frousen sperms ???

How would it work to make a small spermbank today on this rare dogs ???

Is it possible ???

Regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Dear Mikael,

sorry to say, but you seem a bit overexcited about the whole thing.
A so called rare line doesn't mean that it's a "good" line.
And if you look at the pedigree of Falco zo Sennej you see that's not a rare line at all. Sorry Sona and love to Australia....
His father is Cezar od Pavlisina, if this dog's name rings a bell and his mother Klea Ruskov dvor.
Her sister Krasna has many, many descendands. Look at the number of her son's Arek offspring and grandchildren for instance.
For Jola more or less the same.
Her mother is Kada, daughter of Orlik and Hesy.
Look at the number of their descendands.
The only so called rare line nowadays would be Jola's father Synek.
Do you know anything about the health status of the mentioned dogs?
Ok, Falco got blind at the age of 5 or 6 years and his niece Argenta Zelena Voda around the same age.
She´s suffering of a glaucoma which is probably hereditary.
I'm not patronizing you, but before making breeding plans, praising dogs you don't know and blaming certain lines you don't know either, I would strongly recommend coming to Slovakia, Czech Republic, Germany and Poland seeing some older dogs and talking to experienced wolfdog people.
The above mentioned example is only one out of many.
Wolfdog.org and the collected data are brilliant, but only one point out of many.
Have a look at the dates of the different summercamps and come over.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying problems with high inbreeding or even health problems in the breed but your point of view is far too simple.

Regards,
Michael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

.... I would strongly recommend coming to Slovakia, Czech Republic, Germany and Poland seeing some older dogs and talking to experienced wolfdog people.

I fully agree with you, Michael. As it is said in Gaga's signature: Breeding is neither a function, nor a profession or a hobby but a title and honour. It should be deserved and held with dignity.

I would add that breeding (unlike making litters ) is a kind of art, where huge knowlege, hard work, good eye, skills, experience and imagination should be correlated with talent, (or at least a knack) and... modesty (?)

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Dear Mikael,

sorry to say, but you seem a bit overexcited about the whole thing.
A so called rare line doesn't mean that it's a "good" line.
And if you look at the pedigree of Falco zo Sennej you see that's not a rare line at all. Sorry Sona and love to Australia....
His father is Cezar od Pavlisina, if this dog's name rings a bell and his mother Klea Ruskov dvor.
Her sister Krasna has many, many descendands. Look at the number of her son's Arek offspring and grandchildren for instance.
For Jola more or less the same.
Her mother is Kada, daughter of Orlik and Hesy.
Look at the number of their descendands.
The only so called rare line nowadays would be Jola's father Synek.
Do you know anything about the health status of the mentioned dogs?
Ok, Falco got blind at the age of 5 or 6 years and his niece Argenta Zelena Voda around the same age.
She´s suffering of a glaucoma which is probably hereditary.
I'm not patronizing you, but before making breeding plans, praising dogs you don't know and blaming certain lines you don't know either, I would strongly recommend coming to Slovakia, Czech Republic, Germany and Poland seeing some older dogs and talking to experienced wolfdog people.
The above mentioned example is only one out of many.
Wolfdog.org and the collected data are brilliant, but only one point out of many.
Have a look at the dates of the different summercamps and come over.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying problems with high inbreeding or even health problems in the breed but your point of view is far too simple.

Regards,
Michael

I think you misunderstand me a bit here...

I did not say I would breed on them, only that I was interested and wonted more info...

Showresults is not needed, but good health is...

Best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

If we see in the correct point CzW breed have fell lines and if you see most part italians, Passo del Lupo, Crying wolf, Villa D'oria and maybe Kysucká hviezda, all other so called lines are nothing more than interessing mates, like Tambury.

Originally Posted by Michaelundinaeichhorn

Ok, Falco got blind at the age of 5 or 6 years and his niece Argenta Zelena Voda around the same age.

This is the tipical information really important that everyones try hidden.
So, we have Glaucoma problem in the breed, if Falco and Argenta had this problem means it comes from Klea, from Klea litter only Krasna (and Klea) was used as stud, do you know if another brother or sister of Krasna had glaucoma problems?
Knowing this problem we already know that wouldn't be secure for the puppies make any litter with the blood % upper in K Ruskov Dvor CS litter.

Originally Posted by Loco

But this breeder has 3 dogs out this litters, do you not think he has a reason why he did not breed on with this dogs out of those litters?

Scorpion is Chryptorchid.
Sara is Displasic
Lack one?

Originally Posted by Loco

Or is just only the line that must be kept alive, and really the rest is not inportend?

And can we take out lines in CzW?
All CzW are parents, one more closed than other, another more far away than others, but all they are parents, the breed born of only 5 bloodlines and that is the problem.
For people have a little idea about the problem, FCI today only recognize breeds wich have more than 8 different bloodlines.
Some dogs and litters will show problems, some because bad selection like a huge inbreeding, some because accident, the ill appear in the litter, unexpected. But these problems shows only problems wich hole breed have and can appear, and the worst, will appear with the time when the line get more and more close.
What save the breed t'ill now was the good conscience of the origin countries and of some breeders wich don't make (or the clubs don't allow ) clone litters, different parents in every litter help to increase the genetic pool of the breed.
Some litters, some even of pretty famous dogs have brothers or sisters with health problems, chryptorquidism, displasy, hearth problems, epilepsy and maybe some others that we cannot nor imagine, commonly we only know the healty dogs and use it, if you see by line, and start use only healty line wich make only healty puppies in few times even this line will start to show problems because the consanguinty.

So, in this case the only thing that can we do is don't use the affected dogs, and in the case use carefully a healty brother, selecting with care for avoid close in the problematic blood.

Even if we open the line of the CzW with a new blood we will need much more than only one line and a lot of years for make really different lines for let the breeders make a more strong selection, taking out hole litter of reproduction if needed, taking out C dogs or any other "bloodline" wich we find problem.
Now, we can't do that.

Originally Posted by Hanka

But blood of Rep is not so "interest"= good for rescuing . More interest is Atos z Belesova.

Anyway you will rescue the blood of Rep together... Atos Belesova is his son.

[loco]

Thanks .

[Mikael]

I agree whit you Nebulosa !!!

If possible we must save this line, we can not lose one,
when we infact need more blood lines...

But is it to late ???

And way do not the clubs do anything ???

What do the owners of this dogs think ???

Regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by fenris

To follow up my prior comment; please have a look at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7779686.stm

Thanks, very very up to date

Good that somebody do react to this inbreeding problems !!!

Best regards / Mikael

[fenris]

Inbreeding isnt necessarily the problem, but lack of proper offspring selection. Breeding dogs for "beauty-contests" will lead to genetic problem despite the inbreeding practice done. Breeding for good working dogs require a multitude of qualities. Add to that "vitality", "multiple health-factors", mental characteristics &.c.... Breeding is far more sofisticated than adding up pedigrees and inbreeding coefficients. I know some breeders of domestic animals can be very successful practicing inbreeding. Mother-nature can handle heavy inbreeding in wolf populations thanks to severe natural selection. A problem with CWD is an over-estimation of some show-dogs as "studs" and an under-estimation of some good working-line dogs. How are the offspring tested for satisfactory breed results? The bonitations and working tests should be required for studs and brood bitches of this workingdog breed. What if : workingdog tests must be done BEFORE entering the show-ring??