Italian bonitations

[Mikael]

Zitat von Jimma

Hi Mikael!

I understand if it is not that easy to understand but it is very important that you DO understand the diffrencies espacially since you think about being a breeder. Don not tell everybody the MH is a TEST because it is not. There are no special GSD test in the MH. The description situation is the same for every breed its how the spider looks like that counts and that is different from every breed. CsV should not have the same spider as GSD because then you can aswell buy a GSD. The MH dont VALUATE the dogs reaction..No reaction is better then another depending on how the breeds spider looks like. The describer is no judge...He or she only fill in the formula HOW the dog reacts. MH is no meritation its only to see how the dog fits in the spider of the breed more like breedingevaluation. Is the breed going in the right direction or not? SKK wants the MH for our breed to sort out weak individuals from breeding wich they can IF our dogs dont manage the shooting after being stressed out of the description situations. Because its a breed with not that good reputation in Sweden. The same goes for the saarloos for wich we also have to work out such spider, fitting that breed. So please Mikael DONT mix this things up for people.

I´m not trying to mix anything up but clearly people se it as a test, as they put up there own video as "MH TEST", and not as just MH

did I put up the wrong video ? if not, I can only se the word TEST as wrong, sorry for that, it is Mental-beskrivning in Swedish and translated to English it is Mental-description if I´m not wrong...

I did know Mental Health Test was not the exact word, that is way I did put it in paranthes

My point was to show that the testing in the Bonitation of the mentality was not realy a big test, and say very little about the dogs mentality.

So even if we only call it MH... I think the reasen is still the same as on a Bonitation test, to try to breed better dogs and the right ones whit each other.

I se no point at all to argue if is is called a test or description

Best regards / Mikael

[Jimma]

Zitat von Mikael

My point was to show that the testing in the Bonitation of the mentality was not realy a big test, and say very little about the dogs mentality.

Upon that!! I can only agree!

// Jimma

[Juniorwolf]

I almost forgot
...I got answer from both Czech and Slovak club and apparently both countries only accept bonitations for their own breeding dogs which are made in their own country(Czech club only accept Czech bonitations for Czech breeding dogs and Slovak club only accept Slovak bonitations for Slovak breeding dogs, they don`t even accept eachothers), but Both clubs do officially ACCEPT any breeding dog, who have permission to breed in the country where it lives, so the conclution must be that it is ONLY wolfdog.org who do not accept Italian bonitations

This should be the end of this discussion together with the video-clip that Massimo posted earlier, which CLEARLY shows that there is a difference in Czech and Slovak character test and the difference is absolutly the same as in the Italian character test.

I just think it is funny, that non of the before so eager debaters, who was speaking against the Italian bonitations, have any comments to the FACT that wolfdog.org apparently is working against both the Czech and the Slovak clubs, by not accepting the Italian bonitations ...the same tendency can be seen in the thread about the stud dog list, where it is ONLY wolfdog.org who claim that dogs with ED is not to be used in the breeding and non of the clubs of origin have any restrictions about this or even require ED results.

I wait for a correction of the faults made by wolfdog.org about bonitation as well as about ED. ...or at least a reasonable explanation why wolfdog.org do not accept the guidelines of the clubs of origin.

Greetings Rolf

[admin]

Zitat von rolf

...I got answer from both Czech and Slovak club and apparently both countries only accept bonitations for their own breeding dogs which are made in their own country(Czech club only accept Czech bonitations for Czech breeding dogs and Slovak club only accept Slovak bonitations for Slovak breeding dogs, they don`t even accept eachothers), but Both clubs do officially ACCEPT any breeding dog, who have permission to breed in the country where it lives, so the conclution must be that it is ONLY wolfdog.org who do not accept Italian bonitations

Now I fully understand why Margo gave up the Wolfdog.org administration... For sure she had enough to explain again and again the most OBVIOUS things to people who do not WANT to understand it....

The "hidden true" which you just "discovered" is nothing else than the most BASIC FCI rule which says about reciprocal recognition of breeding rights...

Simply said ALL clubs (not only Czech and Slovakian but clubs IN ANY country) must and do accept breeding dogs from other countries. Even if there are NO RULES and all you need for breeding is just a pedigree...

But it has NOTHING to do with recognision of the bonitations. In this case you have the INTERNAL club rules who accept only COMPARABLE bonitations - made on the same "level" as the Czech and Slovak bonitations.

[Rona]

In Poland dogs do not need bonitations to get the breeding rights, nor HD, ED, PRA, nor working exams, etc. but just three excellent (male) and at least very good (female) show results. So any extras the owners do with their dogs is just their good will connected with their care about the breed development.

However - not having the bonitation as the breeding requirement - the owners can bonitate their dogs as many times as they wish, which leads to humorous situations and uncovers the absurds of bonitations, which I have pointed out here several times.

Examples: one owner found bonitating his dog so enjoyable, that he repeats it every year , another found that the dog lost 2 cm in height in one year.

Besides, if one dog gets P3 just because it loses just 0.03 to the required format to get P1 and another gets P3 despite clearly visible wrong format, (broad chest, short legs, etc.), long ears, dark eye - how can anybody treat bonitations seriously, wherever they are carried out? So the whole topic for me is just "much ado about nothing"

BUT: since wolfdog.org site is a private project, the owners/admins may set and apply any rules they wish and the users may either accept them or.... leave. Of course everybody may propose changes or improvements, but it's up the the owners if they accept them or not. I wonder why some people find it so difficult, almost impossible to understand?

PS When in 1989 private ownership was first introduced in our part of the world workers in one factory went on strike under the slogan "We want the company owner to be changed!" Doesn't it sound familiar?

[massimo]

Rolf, it has already been said several times that Czech and Slovak clubs don't need to recognize a thing from outside countries.
You did actually say something rather obvious: if a Czech dog must get pedigree, the mother MUST have bonitation done in Czech republic and the father, if Czech, too. If the father is not Czech, he must have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So they don't care how or if the dogs have been bonitated.

Also in Italy there are NO requirements for getting Pedigree...anything you do (bonitation, exams, xrays) is ONLY because of good will.

Zitat von Rona

Besides, if one dog gets P3 just because it loses just 0.03 to the required format to get P1 and another gets P3 despite clearly visible wrong format, (broad chest, short legs, etc.), long ears, dark eye - how can anybody treat bonitations seriously, wherever they are carried out? So the whole topic for me is just "much ado about nothing"

BUT: since wolfdog.org site is a private project, the owners/admins may set and apply any rules they wish and the users may either accept them or.... leave. Of course everybody may propose changes or improvements, but it's up the the owners if they accept them or not. I wonder why some people find it so difficult, almost impossible to understand?

haha...you make me crack up! absolutely true.
massimo

[Juniorwolf]

Zitat von massimo

Rolf, it has already been said several times that Czech and Slovak clubs don't need to recognize a thing from outside countries.
You did actually say something rather obvious: if a Czech dog must get pedigree, the mother MUST have bonitation done in Czech republic and the father, if Czech, too. If the father is not Czech, he must have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So they don't care how or if the dogs have been bonitated.

Well I am sorry, but it was not obvious(or logical) to me, as in many other breeds it is possible(and normal) to get your dog bonitated in other countries, which is accepted and recognized by the breedclub in the country where the dog lives.

Greetings Rolf

[Hanka]

Rolf, please where was video from czech bonitation? I had not see it......?
Rona, I think, it is not funny to go 2x or more to bonitation with one dog. I don´t understand why somebody do it. Maybe he wait best result for publicing?

[Rona]

Zitat von Hanka

Rona, I think, it is not funny to go 2x or more to bonitation with one dog.

Polish owners are not bound to obey Czech or Slovakian regulations, so why not? Czech owners do not need to obey Polish ones (shows), either...

Zitat von Hanka

I don´t understand why somebody do it. Maybe he wait best result for publicing?

Neither do I But since the dog gets the same P1 code every time, it's definitely not the case you mention Maybe the owner just enjoys it?

[Juniorwolf]

Zitat von Hanka

Rolf, please where was video from czech bonitation? I had not see it......?

I did not mention any video from Czech bonitation, but from Slovak bonitation.

Greetings Rolf

[Juniorwolf]

Zitat von Admin

But it has NOTHING to do with recognision of the bonitations. In this case you have the INTERNAL club rules who accept only COMPARABLE bonitations - made on the same "level" as the Czech and Slovak bonitations.

Did you see the video of Slovak bonitation uploaded by Massimo ?
...if you did, how can you accept Slovak bonitations and not Italian bonitations ?
By internal club rules, do you mean that wolfdog.org is a club ?
Because speaking about comparable bonitations must be a joke, when it is very clear that Czech and Slovak bonitations is quit different from eachother, especially when comparing the charactertest, the R1 code and the significant of the index.

Greetings Rolf