Responsible breeding - health

[pariduzz]

I am really in accord with the administrator and with margo on everything that concerns the mutaras,ibrid,etc...

However returning to the matter hip dispalsia I would want to submit to you breeders an important reflection of juridical character.

After a consequential litter from a dog c, (in the c there is presence of light displasia according to the classification f.c.i.)in head to the breeder it subsists or less an obligation of information on the possible consequences on the pups?

And' true that can be born a pup with the displasia from healthy parents and in this case there are no responsibility from the breeder, but if a pup is born with the displasia from a litter with a displasic parent (beginning from the c) there are responsibility? Must will be us a reimbursement?
And if the breeder has kept silent the presence of hip displasia does he proceed to reimbursement?

I have listen different lawyers, and I have ask an opinion to the official reader centers, for now it would seem that (beginning from the displasia o grades c), for the Italian right, in absence of information from the breeder the buyer that discovers to have a displasic dog have the right to partially get back the paid price for the pup.

[massimo]

Giuseppe, I believe it depends on what agreements you have with the breeder.
He cannot guarantee displasia in ANY way. HD C is "light" displasia.
I am lucky...my first dog is super healthy and I made a verbal agreement (worth more than any written contract!) with both the other breeders whom I trust 100%.
I am sure Paula will inform the new owners about risks and health conditions of parents.
I don't know her at all but from what she writes on the forum I have no doubts about her reliability.
Massimo

[Margo]

Originally Posted by pariduzz

And' true that can be born a pup with the displasia from healthy parents and in this case there are no responsibility from the breeder, but if a pup is born with the displasia from a litter with a displasic parent (beginning from the c) there are responsibility? Must will be us a reimbursement?
And if the breeder has kept silent the presence of hip displasia does he proceed to reimbursement?

It depends on the country... we discussed it also in Poland because officialy you do not need to make any x-rays and it is common some breeders check the dogs but hide all with worser results. Simply said - if someone in Poland is breeding with dogs without HD-results or you have any of them in the pedigree you can be almost sure the dogs are displatics...

So for the law dogs are like thigs. If you breed with heathly dog OR/AND the owner is informed about the results of the parents, the breeder is not responsible for the results of the puppy. If the dogs are not tested or the results are hidden it is like selling "possible defective product". And the new owner can ask some money back.

But as I told - it can depend on the country... Anyway also the new owner is responsible for the hips of the puppy... And I can really imagine a case where the BREEDER will sue the new owner when the parents were healthy and the puppy is not... Because depending on the sourse sometimes it is listed that 60% of the dispasia depends of the feeding and the conditions in which the puppy is living after leaving the kennel....

[Rona]

Originally Posted by pariduzz

for now it would seem that (beginning from the displasia o grades c), for the Italian right, in absence of information from the breeder the buyer that discovers to have a displasic dog have the right to partially get back the paid price for the pup.

Well, the issue is very interesting, but to me seems much more complicated. I have some doubts and questions (without easy answers):
What if the breeder matches two CSVs with A or B results (or A/B) and the pup gets C or worse just because the lines of both parents were "contaminated" with poor HD genes? (e.g. like in the case mentioned earlier). Should the breeder be claimed responsible if a pup got a bad HD result? If yes - to how many generations back were it to be traced? Besides, how could the owner prove it was the breeder's fault and not his own, or just bad luck?

Might not in court the breeder act ignorant of the ancestors' HD results? Wolfdog.org is not an official site and the breeders have no obligation to check the dogs HD results here. Are there in your countries any formal registers, consultation of which should/could be made obligatory before the match is approved by the authorities?

Is in any country's legal system knowlege on genetics required from the breeder? If not, don't you guys think it should be codified by FCI that everybody who wants to register a kennel should take a course and/or pass exam in basic genetics? I would also add an exam in elementary ethics and commercial law. Not to secure ethical behaviour of the breeders (I'm not naive), but so that they could not claim later that they didn't know what was ethical/legal and what wasn't!

Every potential buyer has a great chance here, on this site, to find information about the breed, particular dogs, etc. But still, some basic knowledge about dogs and breeding is needed to be able to understand what he/she reads. Some busy people do not have spare time/energy to invest into such research (or dont even realize how important it is) and get talked into buying 'high-risk' pups. Who is to be blamed if a person gets a pup prone to develop HD (or other illness which could be anticipated if the breeder was honest and knowledgeable) and his only fault was that he trusted a nice person who introduced himself as a 'breed expert'?

And last, but not least... Even the most honest, ethical and knowledgeable breeder can make a mistake. Breeders in a way play God, and every match and litter carries risk. Despit all the good will, responsibility, caution, etc. the faulty gene combination may occur all of a sudden or other factors can appear. I wonder how many breeders in your countries are insured against such cases and if insurance systems for breeders exist at all.

[SERENA]

"Everybody in Italy knows Dark"

Sorry Margo but nobody in Italy know Dark!
Because nobody (or nearly nobody) know Rinauro!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by pariduzz

After a consequential litter from a dog c, (in the c there is presence of light displasia according to the classification f.c.i.)in head to the breeder it subsists or less an obligation of information on the possible consequences on the pups?

Not only in a litter which you have a C parent, but in all litters the breeder must warn the owners about the possibility of HD and ED, and about the importance of made those exams, even if the dog will not be used on breeding.
As breeder we can never forget that HD and ED are poligenic, and we must to know if our dogs are passing or not such problem to their puppies.
Its for nothing in selection terms, you have an A dog that only made displasic dogs upper than C, and put out of breeding a C dog which had made as worst results a C puppy.

And' true that can be born a pup with the displasia from healthy parents and in this case there are no responsibility from the breeder, but if a pup is born with the displasia from a litter with a displasic parent (beginning from the c) there are responsibility? Must will be us a reimbursement?
And if the breeder has kept silent the presence of hip displasia does he proceed to reimbursement?

We need see what the veterinary studies say about displasy, a C dog can be mated with nice females which have nice hips as results and line, its the common sense, the same thing works for the ED 1 results.
HD C dogs as ED 1 dogs can have normal life when this result is the truth one.

By veterinary etic, all mediun/big sized animals must made the HD and ED results before mate, C and 1 dogs must be mated with better hip dogs.

So, only by this we can see that the breeder will be completly responsible for the problem IF he had mate dogs with no results or dogs not allowed to be used ( D and E/ 2 and 3), as if he mate two dogs with the same bad results ( C x C / 1 x 1).

Suppose that in a very special case a non-allowed dog must be used on breeding, the future owners must be warned about it, and , in my view, those pups must be donated with a very restrict contract.

But if you made everything all right, according to the etic, with a huge genetic research in the lines used, and even in this way born a puppy with problems, who is responsible for it?
Well.. its the poligenic problem, and the main question is that no one was responsible for it, nor the breeder and much less the owners, so, there enter the common sense again and the serious work.

The first thing you cannot forget, is that this owners will have a lot of expenses with the displasic dog, he will need to gave medicaments and , in the worst cases, make a cirurgie, its a suffer for anyone who loves their dog.
You, as breeder must be sure that this dog will not be used at breeding.

Normally here, the breeders enter in accord with the owners, giving him the possibility of choise another pup, or receive back the exactly same ammount of money he paid in the dog. But for this, the owner must proove to the breeder that the displasic dog was neuthered, so, it solve both problems.