Italian bonitations

Navarre · 08-09-2009, 15:04

There is a main difference form italian and czech-slovakian character test : in the italian test the dog is never leaved ALONE.

I think this is a big difference that justify considering it a different test that should have different code as results.

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navarre

There is a main difference form italian and czech-slovakian character test : in the italian test the dog is never leaved ALONE.

I think this is a big difference that justify considering it a different test that should have different code as results.

...and the main difference between Czech and Slovak bonitations is aggeression in the charactertest, different ways of interpret the R1 code, the index and 1cm to little = P14.

This is 4 things, the Italian bonitation only have 1 difference compared to the Czech bonitation, so this should justify considering it a different test and different ways of jugdement, Czech and Slovak bonitations should have different codes as results

I will repeat my self again : one difference is not worser than another, it is still a difference.

Greetings Rolf

Monika · 08-09-2009, 17:50

Please, let Judge to say if dog is melancholic, choleric, sangvinic, flegmatic or something between this characteristic. Be alone I can lern shy dog without problem.
Important is, if the test is able to say something about volume of excitement and inhibition simply, about the adaptability and robustness aginst shot. And this italian test do it!
The bureaucracy not belong to breeding of dogs and wolfdog. org with admin WITHOUT NAME do it, simply.
I am sorry for my English.

Monika Soukupová

massimo · 10-09-2009, 01:47

Maybe some of you are interested to know what and how the bonitations in Italy really are.
As it was already said, the morphology is more or less the same as in other countries.
The difference is the Character test.
Some of you know that the character test is made, in Slovakia for example, first by doing a human group and the dog must walk within it.
Then the dog is tied to a pole an the figurant comes out once attacking him and then trying to have a normal contact with him in a calm way.
By these features, the judge is supposed to know, also considering how the dog behaved during the measurement, what kind of character code it deserves.
In italy we have the same group introduction, then the dog is tied up to a long leash and the onwer is holding the other side.
The figurant comes out of the revier with a menacing approach and the dog must react to the person protecting his owner and never pulling back.

We also have a moment in which somebody shoots to empty shots in the air and the dog must remain as it was before, no fear or anger.

I want to share the videos with you, maybe you have some further comments.

In this video Barishka is teaching Mio some manners...she is used to much stronger males...sorry!!

martiou07 · 10-09-2009, 09:12

hello, thank you for these vidéos.

how made you in Italy for correctly judging the characters in the presence of the owner ???

I made pass the bonitation to my female by Monika Soukupova, the test of character passed in my presence then without my presence. This year Daiva Rimaityte made pass to my male, the test of character without my presence. Thus a Czech bonitation and Slovak, we have well could see the character.

correct me if i am wrong :

interest of this test is to see whether the dog is able to go up in pressure and to go down again in pressure when it there does not have threat in front of the same person and without the owner?

I really do not see how to judge the character correctly; a dog then it is with its owner?? the dog defers its confidence on its owner, and the reaction can be completely different without its owner.

Afflicted, but I am not agreement with the test of character of the Italian bonitation, for me the results are not right whole .....

impossible to see whether the dog of itself goes down again in pressure, therefore to see the real stability of the dog , no ???

why do Italy make different test, which reproach towards the tests of Czech and Slovak ?????

sorry for my english

Martial

Hanka · 10-09-2009, 09:28

Hello Martial, I think the same. It is important to see dog reaction without owner. Some wolfdogs are selfconfident with owner behind back and the same dog is shy without owner. The reaction can be absolutly different.

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

attack:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904533370/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904574640/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904510540/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39036911

khmm i not saw normal psychical test ONLY training to defence with figurant and veeery gut figurant, he make dog agresive to atack, but this is training not normal behavior test, who make dog when in real he atack other man when he is alone without owner.
Nice training but not moore

massimo · 10-09-2009, 10:40

i posted the videos not because I think they are wrong or right, but just to show you what we are speaking about as TOO MANY of you speak about something they really know nothing of except "hearing" from others or guessing.
You've seen the video of the Slovak bonitation and here is the video of the Italian bonitation.

I am trying to be as open and subjective as possible.

According to the judge this test is sufficient to be able to evaluate the character of a dog.
This is the Character test made in Italy, whether you like it or not.

Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy.

My opinion is that the real character of a wolfdog cannot really be seen neither with this test or the Czech or Slovak test.
But we need an approximate information about the dog and the judge, when it's a GOOD judge, can see it even from a weak attack like the Slovak test or a strong attack next to the owner like the Italian one.

I respect your opinions, I hope you respect mine.

Massimo

Hanka · 10-09-2009, 10:47

Wow Massimo, write me more about it:
"Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy."
It is interest for me. Why? Is it any law? is it for short test of character too????

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 10:48

Massimo, i respect

only for my this is normal traning but not normal real situation when cann saw normal dogs character.
I know dogs, who are real agresive and cann make this italian atack when is with owner, but alone in CZ/SK test this dogs is veery small and not bark not atack only make down, not are owner, dog not is strong.
for this my like and I tested character like slovak - dog, cann be without training from house, but You cann saw normal realy hes character.
this is my opinion

massimo · 10-09-2009, 10:49

Navarre · 10-09-2009, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy.

Sorry Max, this in NOT true. Really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

But we need an approximate information about the dog and the judge, when it's a GOOD judge, can see it even from a weak attack like the Slovak test or a strong attack next to the owner like the Italian one.

I agree, but we should give same possibility to every dog...as for the "stud list" we need rules that are the same for all.
If you make a different test, don't call it "bonitace" and give different results, what 's the problem ?

Hanka · 10-09-2009, 10:57

"Navarre": Of course, the figurant must have sense for dogs. If he see the dog is not selfconfident, he will not press him out and he must not to do shock of dog for all life

.
But these test sof character are here normal for all working breeds and I think our breed have tis test much "softest" than other working breed here. How we can know if it is dog with labil (stabil) character without seeing dog in different conditions? Often we can see dog only on bonitation, so we want know maximum about him. This dog will be "in much next generations" and we have future of breed in our hand.
This breed was made for work, so we must keep good character of breed. The beauty only is for nothing.

Navarre · 10-09-2009, 10:45

This is the main difference from czech/slovak and italian, other are minimal.

I think it is a big difference as I said before.

@wolfin : about training...you can train even a dog leaved alone without owner!
W can discuss years about what test is better (for me leaving dog alone under attack is wrong and very useless, no other breed do this) but I really don't think this is the point.

08-09-2009, 15:04	#1
Navarre VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Roma Posts: 5,998	There is a main difference form italian and czech-slovakian character test : in the italian test the dog is never leaved ALONE. I think this is a big difference that justify considering it a different test that should have different code as results. __________________ Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau

08-09-2009, 17:50	#3
Monika Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 346	Please, let Judge to say if dog is melancholic, choleric, sangvinic, flegmatic or something between this characteristic. Be alone I can lern shy dog without problem. Important is, if the test is able to say something about volume of excitement and inhibition simply, about the adaptability and robustness aginst shot. And this italian test do it! The bureaucracy not belong to breeding of dogs and wolfdog. org with admin WITHOUT NAME do it, simply. I am sorry for my English. Monika Soukupová Last edited by Monika; 08-09-2009 at 17:54.

10-09-2009, 01:47	#4
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	Maybe some of you are interested to know what and how the bonitations in Italy really are. As it was already said, the morphology is more or less the same as in other countries. The difference is the Character test. Some of you know that the character test is made, in Slovakia for example, first by doing a human group and the dog must walk within it. Then the dog is tied to a pole an the figurant comes out once attacking him and then trying to have a normal contact with him in a calm way. By these features, the judge is supposed to know, also considering how the dog behaved during the measurement, what kind of character code it deserves. In italy we have the same group introduction, then the dog is tied up to a long leash and the onwer is holding the other side. The figurant comes out of the revier with a menacing approach and the dog must react to the person protecting his owner and never pulling back. We also have a moment in which somebody shoots to empty shots in the air and the dog must remain as it was before, no fear or anger. I want to share the videos with you, maybe you have some further comments. In this video Barishka is teaching Mio some manners...she is used to much stronger males...sorry!! http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39038527 Bonitations: Group: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903841 http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39045516 http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39044903 http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904460 Gunshot: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904612042/ attack: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904533370/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904574640/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904510540/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39036911 __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

10-09-2009, 09:12	#5
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	hello, thank you for these vidéos. how made you in Italy for correctly judging the characters in the presence of the owner ??? I made pass the bonitation to my female by Monika Soukupova, the test of character passed in my presence then without my presence. This year Daiva Rimaityte made pass to my male, the test of character without my presence. Thus a Czech bonitation and Slovak, we have well could see the character. correct me if i am wrong : interest of this test is to see whether the dog is able to go up in pressure and to go down again in pressure when it there does not have threat in front of the same person and without the owner? I really do not see how to judge the character correctly; a dog then it is with its owner?? the dog defers its confidence on its owner, and the reaction can be completely different without its owner. Afflicted, but I am not agreement with the test of character of the Italian bonitation, for me the results are not right whole ..... impossible to see whether the dog of itself goes down again in pressure, therefore to see the real stability of the dog , no ??? why do Italy make different test, which reproach towards the tests of Czech and Slovak ????? sorry for my english Martial __________________ Last edited by martiou07; 10-09-2009 at 09:47.

10-09-2009, 10:40	#8
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	i posted the videos not because I think they are wrong or right, but just to show you what we are speaking about as TOO MANY of you speak about something they really know nothing of except "hearing" from others or guessing. You've seen the video of the Slovak bonitation and here is the video of the Italian bonitation. I am trying to be as open and subjective as possible. According to the judge this test is sufficient to be able to evaluate the character of a dog. This is the Character test made in Italy, whether you like it or not. Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy. My opinion is that the real character of a wolfdog cannot really be seen neither with this test or the Czech or Slovak test. But we need an approximate information about the dog and the judge, when it's a GOOD judge, can see it even from a weak attack like the Slovak test or a strong attack next to the owner like the Italian one. I respect your opinions, I hope you respect mine. Massimo __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

10-09-2009, 09:28	#6
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hello Martial, I think the same. It is important to see dog reaction without owner. Some wolfdogs are selfconfident with owner behind back and the same dog is shy without owner. The reaction can be absolutly different.

10-09-2009, 10:47	#9
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Wow Massimo, write me more about it: "Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy." It is interest for me. Why? Is it any law? is it for short test of character too????

10-09-2009, 10:48	#10
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	Massimo, i respect only for my this is normal traning but not normal real situation when cann saw normal dogs character. I know dogs, who are real agresive and cann make this italian atack when is with owner, but alone in CZ/SK test this dogs is veery small and not bark not atack only make down, not are owner, dog not is strong. for this my like and I tested character like slovak - dog, cann be without training from house, but You cann saw normal realy hes character. this is my opinion __________________

10-09-2009, 10:49	#11
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	Sorry i just noticed the links where not perfect. Please find below the right links Scusate i link ai video erano sbagliati! Barushka teaches Amore Mio http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903852799/ Group http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903841733/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904551672/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904490318/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904460162/ Shoot http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904612042/ Attack http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904574640/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904533370/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904510540/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903691113/ massimo __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

10-09-2009, 10:57	#13
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	"Navarre": Of course, the figurant must have sense for dogs. If he see the dog is not selfconfident, he will not press him out and he must not to do shock of dog for all life . But these test sof character are here normal for all working breeds and I think our breed have tis test much "softest" than other working breed here. How we can know if it is dog with labil (stabil) character without seeing dog in different conditions? Often we can see dog only on bonitation, so we want know maximum about him. This dog will be "in much next generations" and we have future of breed in our hand. This breed was made for work, so we must keep good character of breed. The beauty only is for nothing.

10-09-2009, 10:45	#14
Navarre VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Roma Posts: 5,998	This is the main difference from czech/slovak and italian, other are minimal. I think it is a big difference as I said before. @wolfin : about training...you can train even a dog leaved alone without owner! W can discuss years about what test is better (for me leaving dog alone under attack is wrong and very useless, no other breed do this) but I really don't think this is the point. __________________ Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau

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