Misleading article about Hybrids and Wolfdogs

[Rona]

Originally Posted by tikaani

i wouldnt leave my kids with any sort of dog on there own, (...) better to be safe then sorry at the mo, and with all the cross breeding goin on here with inuits and sellin them left and right to any one, some of us have to be responcible

Very wise words. It's not only the issue of a dog hurting a kid, but also a kid hurting the dog .

My friends own a very "predictable" GSD. Once, on entering the room where their little girl was playing with the dog they saw a hairising scene: the girl was screaming and her arm was is the dog's teeth. No blood, no violence, just a strong grip on the side of the dog. The father's reaction was appropriate: "What did you do to him???". The girl admitted later that she was trying to put mascara on the dog's lashes. His reaction was rational and meant to stop her. Luckily, the GSD was a wise, old and sweet family pet. But how could one be sure that every dog would react in this way?

[Joswolf]

My kids or house dogs don't hurt eathother. There are no worrys. My son is 8 and nows how to behave. He grew up between wolfdogs. We live together in harmony and do so for a long time. The wolf and hybrides live seperaten outside.
Jos
Bruno with the wolves

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

My kids or house dogs don't hurt eathother. There are no worrys. My son is 8 and nows how to behave. He grew up between wolfdogs. We live together in harmony and do so for a long time. The wolf and hybrides live seperaten outside.

Lovely photo, but I understood tikaani meant the principle. If you declare publicly that CSV are safe with kids, 99% or more parents will still observe basic safety procedures. But there will always be a fraction of irresponsible people who will take such declaration literally and take the risk when they absolutely shouldn't, i.e. with a newly aquired dog and a toddler.

Besides, I belive it's always better to be safe, than sorry

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Coming back to the topic...

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Every csw is more aggressiv than a normal american wolfdog. Sorry to say, what Richardson say, that they are more social is absolutely right. And he expresses directly that in the right place, with the right people and in the right environment! That means clearly that wolfdogs are not for everyone!

And sorry to say "hybrids" do not attack adults. And with children you never should let a child alone. I have one example the danish dog from Heinz Rudolf Kunze a famous german singer and song writer killed in 1998 the 3 year old child from a friend who did know the dog perfectly and even the child!

I

Originally Posted by Joswolf

Most adult and socialised wolves do attack people who misbehave. All the socialised wolves are difficult to let strange people savely in the fences.
Wolfhybrides can attack as well. Some weeks ago some did in Holland and are taken away now. So I do not agree that socialised wolves are harmless. Likely F1 are also not harmless. You should not act as if it's easy becouse it is not.
Jos

Jos is absolutely right. And I get more and more fed up with advertising hybrids as American Wolfdogs which are no breed but crossings created for showing off.
In the region with the most American Wolfdogs there are a lot of problems and a lot of people who have to take care of those problems. Wolf-Hybrids are banned in several States of the US. And there have been adults attacked!

Some very good articles, the first one by Monty Sloan:
http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfdogs/Poster_section5.html
http://www.arkanimals.com/ark/ws_3_w...g_hybrids.html, this one is a very good site that collects a lot of sources by a behaviourist with quite a lot of experience, all 8 sites are worth reading, not at least the site describing the "breeding"-situation of American Wolfdogs.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/newslet...4/5n4wille.htm

All of them include the bite statistics that are mentioned in the UK link, but show, though obviously only for people that are able to work with statistics, a different picture than this link was posted for. If you take in count that wolfdogs are not allowed in several states, that owners being in trouble tend to say it is a normal dog (also well known from Germany) and that most wolf-hybrids are kept in a very different way to breeds like PitBulls and German Shepherds this statistic doesn´t show that wolf-hybrids are more save with people than other breeds.

Our wolves that have been socialized with children showed exactly the same reaction as Imbo, described by Monty Sloan, they show clear prey behaviour against children now. None of our CSW would even think about this kind of behaviour, a child stays a child even running and screaming. They also don´t accept any more strangers within their inner territory though they are still very loving and kind with us. Who has ever seen a wolf attacking anything in social context knows how extremely fast they change from very nice submissive behaviour to severe attacking, in a very different way to dogs (non of our wolves have ever attacked any human this way, to prevent any gossip right before the beginning!!).
They are only save with people who are able to forget their loving emotions against them far enough to realize that they are wild animals that are created to survive in a cruel nature. This especially makes them and their offspring unsuitable for pets especially for the people that long to keep them that much.

And also is the time a high content wolfdog is matured mostly not the usual 2-3 years but very often much later. That he doesn´t show any kind of aggression in its first years doesn´t mean anything.
There are very few exceptions of course.

And last but not least are the "American Wolfdogs" that are discussed as examples here not only quite young but also very shy and anxious with people they don´t know. They mostly only have a short period of not-shy behaviour but grow out some time later. That makes them of course easier to handle at first sight compared to a not anxious dog but also makes them less predictable and leads to a life in constant stress - what their owners mostly don´t seem to realize in the slightest way, but what is a severe case of animal-abuse for me.

All in all is the article not that wrong, only the fact that CSW and Saarloos a put into the same category is a fatal mislead, but an understandable one if you look at the breeding situation in the UK.

Ina

[Joswolf]

Originally Posted by Rona

Lovely photo, but I understood tikaani meant the principle. If you declare publicly that CSV are safe with kids, 99% or more parents will still observe basic safety procedures. But there will always be a fraction of irresponsible people who will take such declaration literally and take the risk when they absolutely shouldn't, i.e. with a newly aquired dog and a toddler.

Besides, I belive it's always better to be safe, than sorry

I never declared to even have CWD couse i don't. A cwd is selected to use afression, that was his job. My Saarloos i can let without a problem with my kids. So it is save.
And i am not responsible for a fraction of irresponsible people who will take such declaration literally and take the risk. Altho i did not declare such a thing. I have Saarloos and that is a dog, and not a wolf or hybrid. (Like a CWD).
If you breed a dog with wolf and after that mix with other dogs the wolfpart dissapears. The problem is when you mix F1XF1. You can get more wolf and we want domesticated wolfdogs and no wild animals who act like a wolf. Then problems will come.
But my house dogs are dogs. Thats wat a Saarloos is.
Jos

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

Altho i did not declare such a thing. I have Saarloos and that is a dog, and not a wolf or hybrid. (Like a CWD).Jos

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Pure FCI CsV = about 27-32% Wolfblood

Pure FCI Saarloos = about 34 % Wolfblood

Source >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

Best regards / Mikael

[Joswolf]

That was for a long time ago. Over 30 years no wolf used and domestication. Its a dog. Or any dog is a pure wolf then no other animal is used. A wolfhybride is nothing like a Saarloos. A Saarloos i a family dog.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

That was for a long time ago. Over 30 years no wolf used and domestication. Its a dog. Or any dog is a pure wolf then no other animal is used. A wolfhybride is nothing like a Saarloos. A Saarloos i a family dog.

That is data from CsV and Saarloos born 2005-2009

Data link on post #20

Regards / M

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Joswolf

But my house dogs are dogs. Thats wat a Saarloos is.

My house dog used to be and now another one is a dog. That's what CSVs are. My kids started looking after Tina on their own when they were 10 and 13 .

Still, I wouldn't leave my CSV unattended with my grandchild, just like I wouldn't leave a GSD, a spaniel or even a yorkshire terrier alone with any young kid. Not because the dog is wild or unpredictable, but because it's a matter of responsibilty and imagination, which tikaani mentioned. Too many accidents have happened worldwide with placid family dogs of various breeds attacking kids all of a sudden, and for what at first sight seemed, no reasons.

Jos, don't get cross with me, I'm not your enemy, but just have another view on this issue. Maybe at my age one is less prone to take risks...

[Joswolf]

Originally Posted by Rona

My house dog used to be and now another one is a dog. That's what CSVs are. My kids started looking after Tina on their own when they were 10 and 13 .

Still, I wouldn't leave my CSV unattended with my grandchild, just like I wouldn't leave a GSD, a spaniel or even a yorkshire terrier alone with any young kid. Not because the dog is wild or unpredictable, but because it's a matter of responsibilty and imagination, which tikaani mentioned. Too many accidents have happened worldwide with placid family dogs of various breeds attacking kids all of a sudden, and for what at first sight seemed, no reasons.

Jos, don't get cross with me, I'm not your enemy, but just have another view on this issue. Maybe at my age one is less prone to take risks...

I don't cross nor see you as enemy. I just trust my wolfdogs fully. There is now special risk. In fact you take risk when you cross the street. But we can live with it. But it was about wolfhybrides and danger. And the wolfdogs CWD or SWD are non. I talked about Saarloos couse i now more about these breed. I forgot to mention CWD but didn;t mean anything by that. But the article was about hybrides and a potentionel danger. My statement was that the CWD and SWD don't belong in this cathegory.
Some AWD aswell mayby. But it is hard to say couse al lot of differences there is in %wolf. With the CWD and SWD you now what you get. If you have fresh mixed hybrides the first generation's you don't. Special when you breed F1XF1. They need extra care and you must now how to handle and have good fence. You can not tread them as dogs. A Saarloos can easely be scared but when a wolf panics...
Jos

[GalomyOak]

Not entirely on topic, but several parts of this discussion made me think of this website, which I check with interest every now and then (no CSV or Saarloos...)

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Art...llDogsBite.htm

Also, it reminded me of this very old thread:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=334

And this article, which I always keep a copy of in case I meet a dog warden who isn't quite convinced that the breed is a breed, despite all of the registration papers:
http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/wolf-dog.html

All good things,
Marcy