Norwegian ban on SW and CzW

XaedasKSP · 20-12-2009, 03:49

Ok since the forum is politically cenzored then I shall not post anything more about politics. (But I have to just commend that "Per Olav" himself on his homepage that he was referring to, have written that the person who wished to revote the law in order to get the CzWs banned in Norway was Kristin Halvorsen the leader of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti) and first then CzWs became banned. So to say that its not a case of right or left side of politics is strange after personally writing about who pushed on to get the law about banning CzW, but I shall not write more about politics this is the last thing I had to say just so you know that banning me was unfair)

Ah and as for you Mikael, well as much as I wish I could say in direct words what I think, I shall not do it since responding to your post would probably get me banned 10xtimes....

As for the case of the dog, then I have found a perfect solution, the Saarloos Wolfhond which is 100 % legal in Norway. This way I can have a "wolfie" and have it legally, in addition after I have read more about this race I found out that its even better for the place where I live than a CzW.

In addition I think that you could edit the title of the thread since it suggests that Saarloos is to banned in Norway while this is not the case and people who look on the forum might get confused and think that both of the races are banned. Instead it could be an idea to inform about SW and that its legal in Norway so people who live in Norway and want a CzW can read about the less known race of SWs and see if they maybe can be just as happy owning a SW like they would be with a CzW.

Since SWs are a much more rare race than CzW from what I have found out then, there should be some information about them here instead of the confusing title telling that both dogs are banned in Norway which is not true. People who are looking for a wolfdog do most often find the CzW as the first result and absolutely no info about SW and then they dont know that it is possible to have a wolfdog legally in Norway and that this possibility is the SW (all wolfhybrids and other wolfmixes are actually too illegal like the CzW so SW is the only option in Norway).

Per Olav · 20-12-2009, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

Ok since the forum is politically cenzored then I shall not post anything more about politics. (But I have to just commend that "Per Olav" himself on his homepage that he was referring to, have written that the person who wished to revote the law in order to get the CzWs banned in Norway was Kristin Halvorsen the leader of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti) and first then CzWs became banned.

I don't want to debate your misunderstanding any more. If you cut and focus on one single statement from a seven page contex anything can be "proven". Even if most debated, the Norwegian ban of named breeds was a minor issue of the law as a whole. And as I've earlier written - the reason of banning the csv was not a political one but the law itself was a political issue as its existence is a matter of debate and the voting of the Members of our Parliament and NOT depending on the confused opinnon of the chairman of a single political party.

Quote:

In addition I think that you could edit the title of the thread since it suggests that Saarloos is to banned in Norway while this is not the case and people who look on the forum might get confused and think that both of the races are banned.

Quote:

Since SWs are a much more rare race than CzW from what I have found out then, there should be some information about them here instead of the confusing title telling that both dogs are banned in Norway which is not true. .

This thread started back in 2002 when a ban on both breeds was discussed. By following the thread you'll see how the matter developed and how the csv became the single target by groups of special interrest. The SW was just on the edge of beeing banned and still might be.

No one have ever expressed the SW as a banned breed of Norway. On the contrary the legal keeping of sw has been mentioned in this thread as well as in others.

The main purpose of this site is discussing the csv - not SW nor Norwegian laws. Myself I'm quite horrified by your writing. Do you really want to keep a rare breed like a sw just because of its wolfie look and its "rareness" and for no other purpose but that?

I suppose you are informed that our law is stating that if any negative incident (no matter where) made by sw is observed by our authorities the legal keeping of it may be reconsidered. Sad to say - based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour you're in my opinnion not the right person to keep neither a csv nor a sw and I do hope no one ever will sell you one 'cause this might be hazzardous for the future of the handfull sw individals remaining in this country and the work of many good people fighting for a remake of the law made by responsible persons with knowledge of dogs.
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XaedasKSP · 20-12-2009, 15:31

Yes I know that the thread was started in 2002 and that if someone read the whole thread carefully then he/she can find out that SWs are not banned in Norway.

But I just thought about the "random user" who will find this page and this forum looking for a wolfdog. And then if that user even ever heard of a SW (which is much less known as the CzW) when seeing this title might think that both races are banned....if he/she dont study the whole thread carefully. As for the purpose of the site well its still called "wolfdog.org" and there are forum parts about "other wolfdogs" and this forum part is about the law so its being discussed here.....

As for the law, well it looks like the government have iced the whole case, and since its totally not logic to ban dogs that havent been involved in any accidents while dogs like rotweilers can create "accident" after "accident" and no one cares....another proof of this is that even norwegian breeders are starting to breed SWs again and there will probably be SW litter in Norway in february 2010 (ofc. they like extra special price in Norway (even as for norway), nearly 3000 euro, which I would actually pay but lucky for me I found a breeder in germany who have already got a litter that is just waiting to become 8 weeks and a normal price of 1000 euros) so it looks like the plans of a ban are long forgotten in the shadow of history.

And as for me I dont want to keep a rare breed cause its rare, I would just as much wish to have a wolfdog if everyone in the world owned one. When I refer to it as "wolfie" then its because I really like wolfes and the wolflook of SWs and CzWs makes them really beautiful in my eyes. And if you read the history of the SW then you find out that one of the purposes of the breeders of the race was "the wolfie look" so the highly competent breeders have made the dog become more "wolfie" than the original inventor of the race did. And the dog is classified as "company dog" race, unlike the CzW that is listed as "working dog" race.

As for the liknesses in character of the SW and CzW they are extremly many if you read the official character description of the dogs. The main difference is that SW is more shy and it cant work in the police for example. And SW is actually an even more suitable race for someone who live in an area with not too many people in the closest neighbourhood and close to forests. I have carefully read the official descriptions of the characters of the both races and if you do that too then you will find out that very many people who just know about the more popular CzW could have an SW which actually could suit their situation even better, since there are few people who buy a CzW because they want to train it like a police dog. Shyness of a dog is probably totally ok for a dog that is meant to be a family dog. In any case those dogs are not extremly different, both in presence and character.

"based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour" ahh well if you think this cause of my political expressions well.......I am not surprised most of the left side do say this about their opponents as persons too and not only about the politics itself, but I shall not discuss it longer since politics are not allowed here as I see, but I had to just respond to this "personal attack" made in the style of "your opponent" Ben Werner that you write so much about on your homepage.

As for my keeping of SW well I will watch the dog carefully enough to dont let any accident happen, and from what I know about dogs accidents got much bigger chance of happening with a Rotweiler or even a German sheperd than with a SW which is all the time described as a shy dog.

And as for the SW I have already got a deal about getting a pup I am just waiting for it to become 8 weeks, and its not bought in Norway, but there shall also be Saarloos pups in Norway in February 2010 maybe even 2 litters are planned for 2010 from what I have heard (since there are already 11 people on the waitlist for a pup in Norway even before the pups are born) so there will be definitly more Saarlooses in Norway than just a "handfull". And I think this can just HELP the case of CsV getting allowed since if the government will care too look. Since they will se that SWs function perfectly well in Norway even when there are more dogs than "a handfull". So then they will probably think that it can go well too with CSV if it becomes legal.

Per Olav · 20-12-2009, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

"based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour" ahh well if you think this cause of my political expressions well.......I am not surprised most of the left side do say this about their opponents as persons too and not only about the politics itself, but I shall not discuss it longer since politics are not allowed here as I see, but I had to just respond to this "personal attack" made in the style of "your opponent" Ben Werner that you write so much about on your homepage.

It's no personal attack, look at your prev postings and what others have responded to your writings. And I must say if every right winged do express themselves like you do I'll consider changing my political platform.

As for Mr Werner who years ago participated in some discussions on this forum no attack is published on my home page, but like other "advisors" to our Ministry of Justice a summary of some of his writing is refered and well documented on my home page as well as on others. You also find a resumé of this made by the Kennel Klub etc.

And hereby I perfer to end my discussion with you on this subject and no more Pm's please

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XaedasKSP · 20-12-2009, 16:23

Yes I do see what others have responded but you can also see in those responses like for example Mikaels ones that they got political views on the "left side".....they were also based on the fact that people thought it could be dangerous for the dog that is not allowed in Norway to live here.

And your response came after I said that I resign from breaking any laws etc. so it shall not be dangerous for the dog and that I am going to get a SW instead of CSV. For example on the polish forum after I wrote this I havent got any negative reply just positive replies and congratulations for the right decision and finding a Saarloos that I can get. I dont know if this might be caused by the fact that most people in Poland different to those in Scandinavia dont like the "left side" of politics (since many people in Poland have experienced the "dark side" of the left side on their own skin) but I shall not discuss the politics here since its not allowed. But I must be allowed to express that I think that most of the negative replies against me here were based more on the political point of view "that made me unsuited" in their eyes to own a wolfdog.

Either way I had to respond to those "attacks". Now I shall get over to the wolfdog part of the forum and rather create an informative thread about the SW and where people can find the breeders so they wont need to search as much as I did to find a SW breeder who got litters or is planning litters soon. And also get some more info about the race that is legal wolfdog alternative in Norway + general info since I think many people only know about the CSV and dont have any idea that there do exist another wolfdog race that from the character description can maybe be even more suitable as pure "familiy dog".

I wish you good luck with trying to lift the CSV ban in Norway and I hope that if it get lifted after the government change in 2013 I will not get banned for explaining the political right-left reason of it in a thread that is about the law and as we all know law is made by politics.

Ahh and since you added something to your post I have to respond to this too (I hope I dont get banned for answering politics with politics), well if you really wasnt on the left side of the platform as you suggest here then you would probably never tell everyone that this case had nothing to do with the left or right of politics. Since its clearly expressed even on your homepage that it was SV who pushed on to get the ban (probably traded it off for their votes on some other case that the other parties wanted to achieve) after the ban wasnt achieved in the first voting in the "Storting". Every political party must be responsible for what laws they are pushing on to achieve and it isnt possible to say. "Yes they made the law become reality, but you cant say its their political view".

Per Olav · 20-12-2009, 17:05

You still don't understand, do you?

Why do you think there a no sw breeders in Norway anymore. Why are sw seldom seen on Norwegian dog shows? Why are Norwegian sw owners not seen on Norwegian foras and why do they keep a very low profile not to say beeing totally absent in any debate regarding dogs and dog law? Why do you think two sws were poisoned inside the owners dog yard?

Who will ever sell a wolfdog to an unexperienced owner not knowing what kind of trouble he or she might face?
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XaedasKSP · 20-12-2009, 17:23

If you read my post carefully then you would read that there is a norwegian breeder of Saarlooses that will start breeding them with first litter planned for February 2010 and there will be at least 2 litters in 2010 and there are already 11 reserved pups even before any pup is born. So there will soon be many more Saarlooses in Norway. So I dunno who dont understand....

I shall not buy my SW there since I found a breeder outside Norway who have already got a litter of SW that are already born and I reserved a beautiful pup there that I will import with the allowance from "mattilsynet" when it becomes 8 weeks. In addition everything will be much much cheaper, so I shall not wait on the litter in Norway then.

As for the attacks against dogs, well a "villager" (dunno how bonde is translated to english, my bad) shot someones hunting dog just because the dog ran over his potato field where he sometimes had his sheep. So all dogs can get in danger in Norway if the owner let the dog run without leash in the city or close to any human settlement. Its no special crusade against SWs here.

As for my dogexperience well maybe you are a clearvoyant so you know exactly what experience people have with dogs even when they dont say anything about it. But in the case you are not, then I would like to say that I have in 14 years had experience with a German Sheperd that my family had, so I am not unexperienced. But of course I dont claim to be a "dog master" like many of you probably are or think so. Therefore I shall be very careful with my dog and always keep an eye on him when outside of my possesion and hold it on a leash even in the forest close to my place. Only in uninhabited mountain terrain (far, far away from potatofields and "villagers") I shall let the dog run without the leash or on my private possesion.

Mikael · 20-12-2009, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

Ah and as for you Mikael, well as much as I wish I could say in direct words what I think, I shall not do it since responding to your post would probably get me banned 10xtimes....

BTW, I did send e-mails to ALL Saarloos kennels today, warning them and linking to this topic

good luck

Quote:

Yes I do see what others have responded but you can also see in those responses like for example Mikaels ones that they got political views on the "left side".....

Sorry but you are wrong as always

I vote 100% Moderaterna, that is the right side...

Love you to

Best regards / Mikael

XaedasKSP · 20-12-2009, 18:55

Yes I know that there are many people in Norway who might not like the breed although I have in person met no one who hate wolves only on debate forums and on internet never face to face.

But the existence of those people cant make us not have Saarlooses, and the best example of not caring about those few people shouting high is the breeder who breed saarlooses and until now from what I have heard from the breeder she havent had any problems with anyone who dont like the dogs....

What I think you mean is that inexperienced owners can lead to "accidents" and that can be prevented by training, being carefull and using time on the dog. And even if the governement for some strange reason would ban SWs then my dog will be perfectly safe since they cant kill the dogs that are already legally in Norway. Just as they allowed you too keep the CSV.

And other peoples prejustice if there exist wont have any influence on my dog.....since both me and the dog is protected by law actually.

And as for Mikael: well since I cant answer you in the manner I wish to on this forum I shall skip it and rather talk about in a more political forum. And as for your earlier comment you said "

Do not be to sure about that, way do you think they just lost

It looks like all people in Norway do not think like you, thank god." so if you are happy that FrP and the "right side" lost then you can definitly not be on the "right side" yourself. (The political talk I do here is just answering others talking politically to me, so I cant be banned for that unless they too get banned).

And I congratulate you on doing the hard work of finding all the Saarloos kennels in Europe it really takes some time since they are not easy to find.
Sadly for you it all is in vain

since I have already reserved my dog and everything is already booked I have even called the "mattilsynet" about getting import allowance. So sadly for you the breeder isnt a socialist ***** ** **** (sadly I cant express what I wish since politics are forbidden here) and understand that the dog will have a very nice life at my place with all it can ever need. And it is 100 % legal so no matter how unhappy you are that I have realised my dream there is nothing you can do about it.....

Mikael · 20-12-2009, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

And I congratulate you on doing the hard work of finding all the Saarloos kennels in Europe it really takes some time since they are not easy to find.

For me it was easy

as I had the list of all saarloos breeders in Europe

But if I´m missing someone I did it a FW e-mail

Maybe your breeder will not send you one now

I hope so...

Kisses and hugs / Mikael

Per Olav · 20-12-2009, 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

And other peoples prejustice if there exist wont have any influence on my dog.....since both me and the dog is protected by law actually.

OMG. You still don't understand. Keeping away from accidents did not prevent the csv from beeing banned in Norway, merely the fact that it was a csv - a dog breed started as a sientfic experiment by breeding wolves and dogs by the mid 1950ies made it a victim. What prevented the sw from beeing banned is the fact that its breeding started some twenty years earlier and thus a little less dangerous according to our authoryties. But still the sw is ballancing on the edge.

If you love your breed you must think in long terms, not egosentric like whatever might happend in the near future - my dog is safe and protected by law. That's one more of what horrifies me by your way of thinking.
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XaedasKSP · 20-12-2009, 19:28

To Mikael: The breeder is not going to send me one, I am going to visit the breeder and get the pup personally and everything is already booked and reserved. So I dont think the breeder will care about some anonymous person whining that I get a dog that I have every right to have and break the deal.

And the breeder do perfectly understand that the dog will have a good life at my place since I have exchanged many mails with the breeder also about where I live and how the dog will live etc. So I dont think the breeder will care about my political views, especially since people in DDR dont love the "left side" too much since they too have experienced the "dark side" of socialism.

To Per Olav: You tell me that I shall think in long terms, thats what I do I know that no matter how the law will change my dog will still be legal just as your dog is since it got to Norway before CSV got banned. And by the way doesnt the same apply to you? You have bought a CSV knowing that the dog can get banned.....and now you tell me to not buy a SW since SWs can get banned.....

The SW is becoming an older and older race with each year that pass so the reason for banning them is smaller and smaller all the time, if the age of the race is why it balances on the edge. And the best proof that the race is not threatended by a ban is that a breeder started to breed SWs in Norway, do you think she would do it if the dogs were to get banned?

And I dont understand why you think that I am not suitable to own a SW....I am going to use much more time on training it than most average owners do. And also be extra carfull. So tell me why should I be a greater danger to the race than those 11 (maybe more are on the list now) other anonymous future owners of Saarloos in Norway. Plus all those who will get their dogs later on since the breeder will continue to breed Saarlooses and those who import them like me.....

Per Olav · 20-12-2009, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

To Per Olav: You tell me that I shall think in long terms, thats what I do I know that no matter how the law will change my dog will still be legal just as your dog is since it got to Norway before CSV got banned. And by the way doesnt the same apply to you? You have bought a CSV knowing that the dog can get banned.....and now you tell me to not buy a SW since SWs can get banned.....

I guess it's time to end this conversation. My dog was imported long time before a little boy was killed by a number of gsd/polar dog mutts and no one at that time even thought of breed spesific legislation and banning a breed just a few people knew the existence of.

Have a merry Christmas.
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po

XaedasKSP · 20-12-2009, 19:47

I thought that banning of breeds in Norway started already in 1991.....but I shall not bother you more. I just doesnt understand why you think that I am less suitable to own a SW than all those other people who are going to own one in Norway...

Have a nice Christmas you too, and a Happy New Year! And I really hope you succeed in getting CSV legal in Norway and I think that showing the government how nice SWs are living in Norway will help your cause.

Mikael · 21-12-2009, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

To Mikael: The breeder is not going to send me one, I am going to visit the breeder and get the pup personally and everything is already booked and reserved. So I dont think the breeder will care about some anonymous person whining that I get a dog that I have every right to have and break the deal.

Well I´m not going to tell Alexandra at kennel Tachunga nothing, I´m just going to give her the link to this topic, the rest is up to her

I might just help her whit translation if she wont´s to

And I know that you love me to

Very best regards / Mikael

XaedasKSP · 21-12-2009, 01:09

Yes ofc. just show the breeder the whole topic its no problem for me if I were in doubt that the breeder understands it that I will properly take care of the dog and use very much time on it, then do you think I would write about it here or link to the kennel on the polish forum (so you can go there watch the pictures and copy paste the internet adress)? Ahh and dont worry that you will have to "translate" the breeder speaks very well english (I didnt have to write german on the mail) so your great chance of "translating" it to your favour is sadly lost.

What you just dont understand is that people from other parts of the world outside Scandinavia wont blame me for hating socialism, since both in Poland or in DDR they know very well the "dark sides" of it. The best proof is this forum, after I wrote that I shall buy an SW that is legal in Norway people on the polish forum helped me to find a breeder and congratulated upon finding a pup that I can buy.

While here was a totally different approach that met me, you know very well that I will take good care of the SW and that its 100 % legal in Norway. Still you get mad because I found a legal solution of having a wolfdog in Norway. People in Poland know this too but the difference is that they dont care if I hate socialists cause many of them probably do it too... but since on this forum its not allowed to write about politics then I shall stop there.....

Angelika · 22-12-2009, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

I´m just going to give her the link to this topic, the rest is up to her

Thank you, Mikael

20-12-2009, 16:23	#5
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	Yes I do see what others have responded but you can also see in those responses like for example Mikaels ones that they got political views on the "left side".....they were also based on the fact that people thought it could be dangerous for the dog that is not allowed in Norway to live here. And your response came after I said that I resign from breaking any laws etc. so it shall not be dangerous for the dog and that I am going to get a SW instead of CSV. For example on the polish forum after I wrote this I havent got any negative reply just positive replies and congratulations for the right decision and finding a Saarloos that I can get. I dont know if this might be caused by the fact that most people in Poland different to those in Scandinavia dont like the "left side" of politics (since many people in Poland have experienced the "dark side" of the left side on their own skin) but I shall not discuss the politics here since its not allowed. But I must be allowed to express that I think that most of the negative replies against me here were based more on the political point of view "that made me unsuited" in their eyes to own a wolfdog. Either way I had to respond to those "attacks". Now I shall get over to the wolfdog part of the forum and rather create an informative thread about the SW and where people can find the breeders so they wont need to search as much as I did to find a SW breeder who got litters or is planning litters soon. And also get some more info about the race that is legal wolfdog alternative in Norway + general info since I think many people only know about the CSV and dont have any idea that there do exist another wolfdog race that from the character description can maybe be even more suitable as pure "familiy dog". I wish you good luck with trying to lift the CSV ban in Norway and I hope that if it get lifted after the government change in 2013 I will not get banned for explaining the political right-left reason of it in a thread that is about the law and as we all know law is made by politics. Ahh and since you added something to your post I have to respond to this too (I hope I dont get banned for answering politics with politics), well if you really wasnt on the left side of the platform as you suggest here then you would probably never tell everyone that this case had nothing to do with the left or right of politics. Since its clearly expressed even on your homepage that it was SV who pushed on to get the ban (probably traded it off for their votes on some other case that the other parties wanted to achieve) after the ban wasnt achieved in the first voting in the "Storting". Every political party must be responsible for what laws they are pushing on to achieve and it isnt possible to say. "Yes they made the law become reality, but you cant say its their political view". Last edited by XaedasKSP; 20-12-2009 at 16:30. Reason: Per Olav added something to his post

20-12-2009, 17:05	#6
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	You still don't understand, do you? Why do you think there a no sw breeders in Norway anymore. Why are sw seldom seen on Norwegian dog shows? Why are Norwegian sw owners not seen on Norwegian foras and why do they keep a very low profile not to say beeing totally absent in any debate regarding dogs and dog law? Why do you think two sws were poisoned inside the owners dog yard? Who will ever sell a wolfdog to an unexperienced owner not knowing what kind of trouble he or she might face? -- po __________________ Per Olav Last edited by Per Olav; 20-12-2009 at 17:18.

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20-12-2009, 03:49	#1
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	Ok since the forum is politically cenzored then I shall not post anything more about politics. (But I have to just commend that "Per Olav" himself on his homepage that he was referring to, have written that the person who wished to revote the law in order to get the CzWs banned in Norway was Kristin Halvorsen the leader of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti) and first then CzWs became banned. So to say that its not a case of right or left side of politics is strange after personally writing about who pushed on to get the law about banning CzW, but I shall not write more about politics this is the last thing I had to say just so you know that banning me was unfair) Ah and as for you Mikael, well as much as I wish I could say in direct words what I think, I shall not do it since responding to your post would probably get me banned 10xtimes.... As for the case of the dog, then I have found a perfect solution, the Saarloos Wolfhond which is 100 % legal in Norway. This way I can have a "wolfie" and have it legally, in addition after I have read more about this race I found out that its even better for the place where I live than a CzW. In addition I think that you could edit the title of the thread since it suggests that Saarloos is to banned in Norway while this is not the case and people who look on the forum might get confused and think that both of the races are banned. Instead it could be an idea to inform about SW and that its legal in Norway so people who live in Norway and want a CzW can read about the less known race of SWs and see if they maybe can be just as happy owning a SW like they would be with a CzW. Since SWs are a much more rare race than CzW from what I have found out then, there should be some information about them here instead of the confusing title telling that both dogs are banned in Norway which is not true. People who are looking for a wolfdog do most often find the CzW as the first result and absolutely no info about SW and then they dont know that it is possible to have a wolfdog legally in Norway and that this possibility is the SW (all wolfhybrids and other wolfmixes are actually too illegal like the CzW so SW is the only option in Norway).

20-12-2009, 15:31	#3
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	Yes I know that the thread was started in 2002 and that if someone read the whole thread carefully then he/she can find out that SWs are not banned in Norway. But I just thought about the "random user" who will find this page and this forum looking for a wolfdog. And then if that user even ever heard of a SW (which is much less known as the CzW) when seeing this title might think that both races are banned....if he/she dont study the whole thread carefully. As for the purpose of the site well its still called "wolfdog.org" and there are forum parts about "other wolfdogs" and this forum part is about the law so its being discussed here..... As for the law, well it looks like the government have iced the whole case, and since its totally not logic to ban dogs that havent been involved in any accidents while dogs like rotweilers can create "accident" after "accident" and no one cares....another proof of this is that even norwegian breeders are starting to breed SWs again and there will probably be SW litter in Norway in february 2010 (ofc. they like extra special price in Norway (even as for norway), nearly 3000 euro, which I would actually pay but lucky for me I found a breeder in germany who have already got a litter that is just waiting to become 8 weeks and a normal price of 1000 euros) so it looks like the plans of a ban are long forgotten in the shadow of history. And as for me I dont want to keep a rare breed cause its rare, I would just as much wish to have a wolfdog if everyone in the world owned one. When I refer to it as "wolfie" then its because I really like wolfes and the wolflook of SWs and CzWs makes them really beautiful in my eyes. And if you read the history of the SW then you find out that one of the purposes of the breeders of the race was "the wolfie look" so the highly competent breeders have made the dog become more "wolfie" than the original inventor of the race did. And the dog is classified as "company dog" race, unlike the CzW that is listed as "working dog" race. As for the liknesses in character of the SW and CzW they are extremly many if you read the official character description of the dogs. The main difference is that SW is more shy and it cant work in the police for example. And SW is actually an even more suitable race for someone who live in an area with not too many people in the closest neighbourhood and close to forests. I have carefully read the official descriptions of the characters of the both races and if you do that too then you will find out that very many people who just know about the more popular CzW could have an SW which actually could suit their situation even better, since there are few people who buy a CzW because they want to train it like a police dog. Shyness of a dog is probably totally ok for a dog that is meant to be a family dog. In any case those dogs are not extremly different, both in presence and character. "based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour" ahh well if you think this cause of my political expressions well.......I am not surprised most of the left side do say this about their opponents as persons too and not only about the politics itself, but I shall not discuss it longer since politics are not allowed here as I see, but I had to just respond to this "personal attack" made in the style of "your opponent" Ben Werner that you write so much about on your homepage. As for my keeping of SW well I will watch the dog carefully enough to dont let any accident happen, and from what I know about dogs accidents got much bigger chance of happening with a Rotweiler or even a German sheperd than with a SW which is all the time described as a shy dog. And as for the SW I have already got a deal about getting a pup I am just waiting for it to become 8 weeks, and its not bought in Norway, but there shall also be Saarloos pups in Norway in February 2010 maybe even 2 litters are planned for 2010 from what I have heard (since there are already 11 people on the waitlist for a pup in Norway even before the pups are born) so there will be definitly more Saarlooses in Norway than just a "handfull". And I think this can just HELP the case of CsV getting allowed since if the government will care too look. Since they will se that SWs function perfectly well in Norway even when there are more dogs than "a handfull". So then they will probably think that it can go well too with CSV if it becomes legal.

20-12-2009, 17:23	#7
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	If you read my post carefully then you would read that there is a norwegian breeder of Saarlooses that will start breeding them with first litter planned for February 2010 and there will be at least 2 litters in 2010 and there are already 11 reserved pups even before any pup is born. So there will soon be many more Saarlooses in Norway. So I dunno who dont understand.... I shall not buy my SW there since I found a breeder outside Norway who have already got a litter of SW that are already born and I reserved a beautiful pup there that I will import with the allowance from "mattilsynet" when it becomes 8 weeks. In addition everything will be much much cheaper, so I shall not wait on the litter in Norway then. As for the attacks against dogs, well a "villager" (dunno how bonde is translated to english, my bad) shot someones hunting dog just because the dog ran over his potato field where he sometimes had his sheep. So all dogs can get in danger in Norway if the owner let the dog run without leash in the city or close to any human settlement. Its no special crusade against SWs here. As for my dogexperience well maybe you are a clearvoyant so you know exactly what experience people have with dogs even when they dont say anything about it. But in the case you are not, then I would like to say that I have in 14 years had experience with a German Sheperd that my family had, so I am not unexperienced. But of course I dont claim to be a "dog master" like many of you probably are or think so. Therefore I shall be very careful with my dog and always keep an eye on him when outside of my possesion and hold it on a leash even in the forest close to my place. Only in uninhabited mountain terrain (far, far away from potatofields and "villagers") I shall let the dog run without the leash or on my private possesion.

20-12-2009, 18:55	#9
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	Yes I know that there are many people in Norway who might not like the breed although I have in person met no one who hate wolves only on debate forums and on internet never face to face. But the existence of those people cant make us not have Saarlooses, and the best example of not caring about those few people shouting high is the breeder who breed saarlooses and until now from what I have heard from the breeder she havent had any problems with anyone who dont like the dogs.... What I think you mean is that inexperienced owners can lead to "accidents" and that can be prevented by training, being carefull and using time on the dog. And even if the governement for some strange reason would ban SWs then my dog will be perfectly safe since they cant kill the dogs that are already legally in Norway. Just as they allowed you too keep the CSV. And other peoples prejustice if there exist wont have any influence on my dog.....since both me and the dog is protected by law actually. And as for Mikael: well since I cant answer you in the manner I wish to on this forum I shall skip it and rather talk about in a more political forum. And as for your earlier comment you said " Do not be to sure about that, way do you think they just lost It looks like all people in Norway do not think like you, thank god." so if you are happy that FrP and the "right side" lost then you can definitly not be on the "right side" yourself. (The political talk I do here is just answering others talking politically to me, so I cant be banned for that unless they too get banned). And I congratulate you on doing the hard work of finding all the Saarloos kennels in Europe it really takes some time since they are not easy to find. Sadly for you it all is in vain since I have already reserved my dog and everything is already booked I have even called the "mattilsynet" about getting import allowance. So sadly for you the breeder isnt a socialist *** **** (sadly I cant express what I wish since politics are forbidden here) and understand that the dog will have a very nice life at my place with all it can ever need. And it is 100 % legal so no matter how unhappy you are that I have realised my dream there is nothing you can do about it.....

20-12-2009, 19:28	#12
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	To Mikael: The breeder is not going to send me one, I am going to visit the breeder and get the pup personally and everything is already booked and reserved. So I dont think the breeder will care about some anonymous person whining that I get a dog that I have every right to have and break the deal. And the breeder do perfectly understand that the dog will have a good life at my place since I have exchanged many mails with the breeder also about where I live and how the dog will live etc. So I dont think the breeder will care about my political views, especially since people in DDR dont love the "left side" too much since they too have experienced the "dark side" of socialism. To Per Olav: You tell me that I shall think in long terms, thats what I do I know that no matter how the law will change my dog will still be legal just as your dog is since it got to Norway before CSV got banned. And by the way doesnt the same apply to you? You have bought a CSV knowing that the dog can get banned.....and now you tell me to not buy a SW since SWs can get banned..... The SW is becoming an older and older race with each year that pass so the reason for banning them is smaller and smaller all the time, if the age of the race is why it balances on the edge. And the best proof that the race is not threatended by a ban is that a breeder started to breed SWs in Norway, do you think she would do it if the dogs were to get banned? And I dont understand why you think that I am not suitable to own a SW....I am going to use much more time on training it than most average owners do. And also be extra carfull. So tell me why should I be a greater danger to the race than those 11 (maybe more are on the list now) other anonymous future owners of Saarloos in Norway. Plus all those who will get their dogs later on since the breeder will continue to breed Saarlooses and those who import them like me.....

20-12-2009, 19:47	#14
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	I thought that banning of breeds in Norway started already in 1991.....but I shall not bother you more. I just doesnt understand why you think that I am less suitable to own a SW than all those other people who are going to own one in Norway... Have a nice Christmas you too, and a Happy New Year! And I really hope you succeed in getting CSV legal in Norway and I think that showing the government how nice SWs are living in Norway will help your cause.

21-12-2009, 01:09	#16
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	Yes ofc. just show the breeder the whole topic its no problem for me if I were in doubt that the breeder understands it that I will properly take care of the dog and use very much time on it, then do you think I would write about it here or link to the kennel on the polish forum (so you can go there watch the pictures and copy paste the internet adress)? Ahh and dont worry that you will have to "translate" the breeder speaks very well english (I didnt have to write german on the mail) so your great chance of "translating" it to your favour is sadly lost. What you just dont understand is that people from other parts of the world outside Scandinavia wont blame me for hating socialism, since both in Poland or in DDR they know very well the "dark sides" of it. The best proof is this forum, after I wrote that I shall buy an SW that is legal in Norway people on the polish forum helped me to find a breeder and congratulated upon finding a pup that I can buy. While here was a totally different approach that met me, you know very well that I will take good care of the SW and that its 100 % legal in Norway. Still you get mad because I found a legal solution of having a wolfdog in Norway. People in Poland know this too but the difference is that they dont care if I hate socialists cause many of them probably do it too... but since on this forum its not allowed to write about politics then I shall stop there.....