Forming a breed club in the US

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

The German "Working" Shepherd lines are a good example that sport exams of the old type like SchH etc. don´t help much, in this special case looking at character they made things worse.
The German Police and Border Patrol often buys dogs out of other countries or changed to Mallinois beacause the German dogs often are not usable because of health and character.
By breeding for easy obidience and high prey instinct they got extremly excitable (in the meaning of too aroused) dogs that are too nervous for real work (in the sense of work not sport) and switch in emotions very quickly what makes many of them not reliable. And many of them are in no way healthier than the show lines. The lines of Eastern Germany were the old type of good working dogs that also were healthier but mostly got mixed up with the Western Germany type and are very hard to find nowadays.

Ina

[draggar]

Don't forget in Sieger shows it is required to keep the dog at a trot for a while (I don't know exactly how long but I think more people can't do it for being out of shape).

SchH1 isn't that easy to obtain (and I only used that as an example) but holds true to the vlcak's reason for existence - tracking, protection, and obedience. (Too bad the SchH2 and SchH3 trials are very similar to the 1). I think we should start looking into schutzhund with our vlcaks (hell, they are descendants of working line GSDs - and the Czech Republic / Czechoslovakia made some of the best working line GSDs).

As for real working - what should be considered real working? I am sure most SchH3 dogs don't do much of the schutzhund work outside of the field (except obedience). I don't think the CsV was created to herd but if it's going to be in the herding group, then maybe we should also look into that.

Making the "official" breed club - I've gotten no response from the ABLA (American Belgian Laekenois Assoc) so I've asked Fred Lanting to reach out to the Shiloh Shepherd community to find out what they did to form the "official" club - as well as any costs that were associated with the formation and annual costs. While I understand that money can be tight with the members at this time, I'd hate to see someone else come in and form the club without the community's (or breed's) best interests in mind. Next thing we know we could have a commercial breeder breeding anything and calling it a vlcak.

I think the club should continue to be called the "Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America" (CsVCA) and continue to use Marcy's site:

http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/

As the club's site. To keep cybersquatters away, I did register czechoslovakianvlcak.com and csvca.org and pointed them to Marcy's site. (.com is sill king - most people will type that in and .org because it suits an "organization" and people will type that in). I also added her site on the Wikipedia page on vlcaks.

Sadly, though, when you type VLCAK into Google, some of the top sites that come up still call them wolf hybrids. We need to get those pushed down in the rankings so people can see the truth.

Edit: I see the APRI, ACR, and DRA all recognize the vlcak as a breed - let's try to stay away from these registries and *not* accept them for AKC registration (if we have a choice).

I'm going to preface this with my standard, "I don't own a CsV yet, so I can't rate from experience, but..."

I personally think a better test of historical CsV character would be to focus on obedience, tracking, and endurance (if there even is such a thing here!) rather than Schutzhund (although, I would see that as still being perfectly acceptable in regards to registry with the CsVCA). I think AKC tracking is more in line with what the CsV was originally bred for than the tracking in Schutzhund. AKC tracking is looser, giving the dog more freedom to do its job in its own way as opposed to having to follow strict rules when tracking. I think it would be a shame to lose the CsV's inherent independent thought when it comes to work because a more biddable dog is favored because it scores high as opposed to a dog that may be too smart for the sport & apt to take shortcuts because it has the proper temperament.

I also think that there should be an exception for actual working dogs, even if there isn't a title involved. CsVs show a LOT of promise as search & rescue dogs (which is what I'd love to do), airport checks/security, police work, etc, and we of course can't discount the dogs that are ACTUALLY going out & doing a job every day!

[Gypsy Wolf]

I feel a little bit differently on the topic of working titles/sports. The CsV was bred to be a Border Patrol dog. Period. That means BITEWORK. Schutzhund was designed to test the working abilities of dogs used in police/military work, and in many cases it still is relied on to prove the working ability of a dog. DVG supports all breeds, the SV is solely a GSD organization. Vlcaks descended from GSDs that had to earn titles in order to be bred. I am sure that the original Vlcak breeding program relied on similar tests to make sure they were breeding only the best.
I also disagree in regards to using AKC Tracking ("trailing," really) - I have been to a multitude of AKC Tracking events, and it seemed to me very few of the dogs actually followed scent as much as they "sighted" the marker flags! There is no doubt in SchH Tracking - it's much stricter. There is an "AD" Endurance title in SchH. Personally, I think that we should set our standards high in order to preserve the working ability of the breed. Yes, it takes time. Yes, it takes commitment, but do we really want to see the CsV turn into the misery that is the American GSD? I shudder at the thought of a pretty dog with no brains.
I would like to see a minimum of a BH, AD, WD (Watchdog title - bitework & obedience), or a SchH1. Or perhaps we could develop our own tests to put a Vlcak through to see if it has the working abilities we prize. I know the Beauceron people have their own sort of Temperament Test. I would be happy with a CD or a HIC - just SOMETHING to prove work ethic and solid temperament. We would be the first AKC breed club to require that, and I think we should pave the way!

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

do we really want to see the CsV turn into the misery that is the American GSD? I shudder at the thought of a pretty dog with no brains.

Lots of people will disagree, for sure.. maybe even you.. but I feel that some American bred GSDs - those born for the express purpose of pet-ownership - is a FINE institution with some breeders in it for 20-30 years and producing dogs with many, many repeat owners. It is not right to paint them all with the same brush. No, those dogs are not in it for the work, and certainly do not conform to 'standards' (perhaps for the better..), and probably cannot do any of the traditional bite work, but they are nonetheless good family dogs.. it does no favors to the average home looking for a pet dog to buy a working line Czech bred working dog. I personally think that a select few American kennels NOT breeding to work qualities cannot be criticized any more than the next breeder.

Very, very exceedingly few but I can think of a few kennels that agree with me.

Quite a few people would argue that the SchH titled West Germany dogs are 'disasters' too.

I respect your opinions, Luna's mom, I'm just offering another POV.. I do think it is of utmost importance to keep a working dog with working capabilities.. so much so that my next dog, a Vlcak, I *want* to do work with even if that is not what I had in mind. I just don't think it's right, though, to paint all GSDs and implicitly all American GSD breeders, with the same brush. Many, MANY Am and W. German breeders breed for incredibly sporty GSDs - the type that pass SchH but not the type where you see them and say, "yes, that's great, healthy angulation and great working temperament".

I am a FIRM believer that a breed that is attractive AND also bred to work, will always split into work-show lines. I DO believe it is with the combined efforts of the work AND show lines, that any breed - including vlcaks - can achieve greatness.. sadly, many breeds do not choose to work together and instead split into two separate camps - working or show. Dog breeds where only work is valued - let's say, Catahoulas and Alaskan Huskys.. border on recognition of 'breed' because of the huge physical differences that can occur. And dog breeds that are bred mainly on looks - let's say Shelties - are relegated to 'dogs that USED to work'.

I do think that breed clubs that can achieve cooperation really can keep both - kennels that concentrate on conformation working with kennels concentration on work - face it, no dog is PERFECT in both.

Anyway, a big rant, I guess. I hope that the Vlcak go in a direction that is neither extremely one way nor the other. just my humble 2 cents.

[soniakanavle]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

No, those dogs are not in it for the work, and certainly do not conform to 'standards' (perhaps for the better..), and probably cannot do any of the traditional bite work, but they are nonetheless good family dogs.. it does no favors to the average home looking for a pet dog to buy a working line Czech bred working dog. I personally think that a select few American kennels NOT breeding to work qualities cannot be criticized any more than the next breeder.

Then what's the point in owning a purebred dog if you don't think it should live up to their standard??
I think all dogs should be bred to the ORIGINAL standard and used for what they were bred for still. It is so sad to see the difference in the original working line German and Czech GSDs and the present day high strung unhealthy American show line GSD. Of course I think some dogs can just be pets, hell my GSD and CsV are, but I'm glad they still have their natural protection and brains in them and they're doing their job everyday, being my best friend and protector. I hate the temperment in the typical show GSD nowadays and I think all GSD owners here will agree. [Another example is the Border Collie. The difference in the working/show lines is so sad to me... ] I personally think the GSD is the best family dog ever anyway BECAUSE of their natural guarding instincts and at the same time gentleness. My 3 year old niece fell in love with my GSD and would climb on her and pull her around and tell her to do things [my niece is a natural dog trainer lol] and my Shepherd would obediently follow her around, do tricks for her and not let her out of her sight. I trusted them together with my life and now my sister is getting one for her because of the bond and trust they had together. But if you want just a pet that is easy and predictable, get a Golden Retriever or Lab, don't purposely dumb down GSD's or CsV's [*shudder*] just so average Americans can have a 'pretty' dog with no real purpose.

GSD's and CsV's are both WORKING dogs and I think they can excel at conformation as well as long as we get good judges here in the US that will ACTUALLY judge their standard and temperament like they're supposed too, not based on politics or their personal preferences.
[A lot to ask/hope for I know, but fingers crossed!]

[yukidomari]

"Then what's the point in owning a purebred dog if you don't think it should live up to their standard??"


Standards are up to interpretation. Naturally... all standards differ from not country to country but from breeder to breeder. This is ABSOLUTELY true. No dog today has stayed true to 'original' standard. That is the point of a breed club, the point of shows, the point of breeders, to improve and change the breed as it is towards a better future.

Breeds change throughout time - that is indisputable, too. The GSD was built, pre-war, as a Shepherd dog, but the use quickly changed to an all around military working dog. That itself is a change and I hardly see anyone using GSDs for herding, at least as efficiently as other specialized herders. Breeds, like anything else human made, is open to interpretation and social evolution. And there is nothing wrong with that. Dogs can't all be bred to original use. That would mean that English mastiffs would still be war dogs, that Tosa-ken are still used for dog fighting, Bulldogs for bull baiting, and Chis used for sacrificial rites. Wolfhounds don't have anymore wolves to hunt; Lundehunds don't have any more puffins to catch, and many small ratters live in houses with no more rats to be caught. The last I saw a Chinese Crested used for ratting, was, well, never...

Labs and other Retrievers are not seen internationally as good family dogs either, just for your information. Field bred labs are SO different from bench bred, and it's not right to assume otherwise. Are you assuming that there aren't working labs or kennels breeding field labs and retrievers? They are actually one of the THE original breeds, before military work, that existed far before specialized police work of modern day GSDs.

IF your GSD was a true working line GSD with a working temperament, do you think you would not have had to do any work with it to satisfy it? Do you know that GSDs were one of the most popular family dogs, and were not always 'known' for their sharp & hard character? If most homes are cut out to care, instead, for 'easy' retrievers, they why are there so many labs and retrievers that are in shelters and rescues? Obviously, they are not as easy as people make them out to be.. and the labs that you think are 'easy' are just another manifestation of pet-line dogs.

I tend to think there needs to be SOME leeway, as well. Although I do feel that there needs to be some sort of title requirement in the club's ethics aside from confirmation, and despite the fact that a uniform look and temperament is desired, I feel that some specifics of breeding should be left to the individual breeder. Vision of how a breed should be developed is a key element to breeding, and I don't think that the "art" should be downplayed or stripped away for the sake of uniformity. I think that's where a lot of breeds have gone wrong in the past, because the more specific in breeding you get, the more apt people are to lower the gene pool, which brings out genetic problems.

I think that one of the major places people are going to differ is on how they test their dogs' working ability/aptitude. People are going to have different ideas of what's important in the dog's drive so people are going to want to test differently. This is why I think there should be a varied list of titles and the dogs have to obtain X amount before being OK'd to breed by the club.

That's a great point about the AKC tracking, BTW! haha I never thought of the dogs taking visual cues instead of scent! I guess I just liked the description on paper, the way the CsV trailed was air scenting (from what I understand) not following a scent on the ground, as I think the Schutzhund trial works, right? Also, air scenting is how search & rescue dogs work, which is what I was planning on doing with my dogs, so it would be difficult to work both ways.

As far as bitework & Schutzhund are concerned, and my personal direction for breeding, I'm less concerned with the use of working-like GSDs and more with why the wolf was brought in. With the type of work the dogs were doing, they not only needed endurance, they needed independence. I think that, yes, Schutzhund is a wonderful test of ability, but I think the temperament of a CsV doesn't lend itself well to earning SchH titles (at least higher level ones) and that if a breeding plan were based around the temperament that DID excel at wining titles, part of the CsV's original temperament will be lost. Just personal preference, I think.

[soniakanavle]

By 'standard' I mean the original written breed standard from the country of origin. And no, I don't think that should be up to 'interpretation.'
If you read the real original GSD standard then look at what passes in the show ring in the US, you wouldn't even know it was the same breed!
And my POINT is it's obviously not in the best interest of the breed to breed them without healthy hips, without any brains and only to create a certain 'look' that is popular with the judges. I don't think they've 'improved' at all! In the beginning, it didn't matter what the dog looked like, it's temperament and work ethic was more important and I feel like that was a better course for the breed.

As for my GSD, of course I worked with her! And of course she was happy, who are you to judge??!!? She was from half American half German show lines though I never showed her, we did in fact, do herding, agility, obedience, farm work and guarding/patrol work. [Like a real GSD. I'm not saying they have to be in the military or a K9 unit to be a real GSD. I LIKE the farm dog aspect of the breed.]
Sadly she developed hip dysplasia and bone cancer so I couldn't do any real strenuous or competitive work with her but she was a great protector and my best friend and I think a real ambassador for the breed. RIP.
And the poor health is one of my examples of the poor breeding tactics in this country and why when I get my next GSD I'm going to get a Czech bred DDR working line dog which seem a lot truer to the type of GSD I love so dearly and they actually care about the future of this wonderfull breed. [I think y'all can agree, that American popularity after the war ruined the GSD as it should be. ]

And as for lab/goldens etc, I have nothing against the breeds, I just put them out as an example of a more all around 'family friendly' dog if that's what you're looking for. And ACTUALLY, sporting dogs are the group I'm glad is going away from their original purpose and becoming pets because I DETEST hunters!!!

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

I feel a little bit differently on the topic of working titles/sports. The CsV was bred to be a Border Patrol dog. Period. That means BITEWORK.

Wrong information !!! CsW was basically create for watching by signal wall (the fence with tiny wires, which by any touching starting alarm). And the most important work was to found trace of the people, which want to cross border. Of course, if dog can good stop the people, then have higher value, but never watch the dog without soldiers, so that the bite work was only the secondary. Primary mission was TRACING !!!