Forming a breed club in the US

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

do we really want to see the CsV turn into the misery that is the American GSD? I shudder at the thought of a pretty dog with no brains.

Lots of people will disagree, for sure.. maybe even you.. but I feel that some American bred GSDs - those born for the express purpose of pet-ownership - is a FINE institution with some breeders in it for 20-30 years and producing dogs with many, many repeat owners. It is not right to paint them all with the same brush. No, those dogs are not in it for the work, and certainly do not conform to 'standards' (perhaps for the better..), and probably cannot do any of the traditional bite work, but they are nonetheless good family dogs.. it does no favors to the average home looking for a pet dog to buy a working line Czech bred working dog. I personally think that a select few American kennels NOT breeding to work qualities cannot be criticized any more than the next breeder.

Very, very exceedingly few but I can think of a few kennels that agree with me.

Quite a few people would argue that the SchH titled West Germany dogs are 'disasters' too.

I respect your opinions, Luna's mom, I'm just offering another POV.. I do think it is of utmost importance to keep a working dog with working capabilities.. so much so that my next dog, a Vlcak, I *want* to do work with even if that is not what I had in mind. I just don't think it's right, though, to paint all GSDs and implicitly all American GSD breeders, with the same brush. Many, MANY Am and W. German breeders breed for incredibly sporty GSDs - the type that pass SchH but not the type where you see them and say, "yes, that's great, healthy angulation and great working temperament".

I am a FIRM believer that a breed that is attractive AND also bred to work, will always split into work-show lines. I DO believe it is with the combined efforts of the work AND show lines, that any breed - including vlcaks - can achieve greatness.. sadly, many breeds do not choose to work together and instead split into two separate camps - working or show. Dog breeds where only work is valued - let's say, Catahoulas and Alaskan Huskys.. border on recognition of 'breed' because of the huge physical differences that can occur. And dog breeds that are bred mainly on looks - let's say Shelties - are relegated to 'dogs that USED to work'.

I do think that breed clubs that can achieve cooperation really can keep both - kennels that concentrate on conformation working with kennels concentration on work - face it, no dog is PERFECT in both.

Anyway, a big rant, I guess. I hope that the Vlcak go in a direction that is neither extremely one way nor the other. just my humble 2 cents.

[soniakanavle]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

No, those dogs are not in it for the work, and certainly do not conform to 'standards' (perhaps for the better..), and probably cannot do any of the traditional bite work, but they are nonetheless good family dogs.. it does no favors to the average home looking for a pet dog to buy a working line Czech bred working dog. I personally think that a select few American kennels NOT breeding to work qualities cannot be criticized any more than the next breeder.

Then what's the point in owning a purebred dog if you don't think it should live up to their standard??
I think all dogs should be bred to the ORIGINAL standard and used for what they were bred for still. It is so sad to see the difference in the original working line German and Czech GSDs and the present day high strung unhealthy American show line GSD. Of course I think some dogs can just be pets, hell my GSD and CsV are, but I'm glad they still have their natural protection and brains in them and they're doing their job everyday, being my best friend and protector. I hate the temperment in the typical show GSD nowadays and I think all GSD owners here will agree. [Another example is the Border Collie. The difference in the working/show lines is so sad to me... ] I personally think the GSD is the best family dog ever anyway BECAUSE of their natural guarding instincts and at the same time gentleness. My 3 year old niece fell in love with my GSD and would climb on her and pull her around and tell her to do things [my niece is a natural dog trainer lol] and my Shepherd would obediently follow her around, do tricks for her and not let her out of her sight. I trusted them together with my life and now my sister is getting one for her because of the bond and trust they had together. But if you want just a pet that is easy and predictable, get a Golden Retriever or Lab, don't purposely dumb down GSD's or CsV's [*shudder*] just so average Americans can have a 'pretty' dog with no real purpose.

GSD's and CsV's are both WORKING dogs and I think they can excel at conformation as well as long as we get good judges here in the US that will ACTUALLY judge their standard and temperament like they're supposed too, not based on politics or their personal preferences.
[A lot to ask/hope for I know, but fingers crossed!]

[yukidomari]

"Then what's the point in owning a purebred dog if you don't think it should live up to their standard??"


Standards are up to interpretation. Naturally... all standards differ from not country to country but from breeder to breeder. This is ABSOLUTELY true. No dog today has stayed true to 'original' standard. That is the point of a breed club, the point of shows, the point of breeders, to improve and change the breed as it is towards a better future.

Breeds change throughout time - that is indisputable, too. The GSD was built, pre-war, as a Shepherd dog, but the use quickly changed to an all around military working dog. That itself is a change and I hardly see anyone using GSDs for herding, at least as efficiently as other specialized herders. Breeds, like anything else human made, is open to interpretation and social evolution. And there is nothing wrong with that. Dogs can't all be bred to original use. That would mean that English mastiffs would still be war dogs, that Tosa-ken are still used for dog fighting, Bulldogs for bull baiting, and Chis used for sacrificial rites. Wolfhounds don't have anymore wolves to hunt; Lundehunds don't have any more puffins to catch, and many small ratters live in houses with no more rats to be caught. The last I saw a Chinese Crested used for ratting, was, well, never...

Labs and other Retrievers are not seen internationally as good family dogs either, just for your information. Field bred labs are SO different from bench bred, and it's not right to assume otherwise. Are you assuming that there aren't working labs or kennels breeding field labs and retrievers? They are actually one of the THE original breeds, before military work, that existed far before specialized police work of modern day GSDs.

IF your GSD was a true working line GSD with a working temperament, do you think you would not have had to do any work with it to satisfy it? Do you know that GSDs were one of the most popular family dogs, and were not always 'known' for their sharp & hard character? If most homes are cut out to care, instead, for 'easy' retrievers, they why are there so many labs and retrievers that are in shelters and rescues? Obviously, they are not as easy as people make them out to be.. and the labs that you think are 'easy' are just another manifestation of pet-line dogs.

I tend to think there needs to be SOME leeway, as well. Although I do feel that there needs to be some sort of title requirement in the club's ethics aside from confirmation, and despite the fact that a uniform look and temperament is desired, I feel that some specifics of breeding should be left to the individual breeder. Vision of how a breed should be developed is a key element to breeding, and I don't think that the "art" should be downplayed or stripped away for the sake of uniformity. I think that's where a lot of breeds have gone wrong in the past, because the more specific in breeding you get, the more apt people are to lower the gene pool, which brings out genetic problems.

I think that one of the major places people are going to differ is on how they test their dogs' working ability/aptitude. People are going to have different ideas of what's important in the dog's drive so people are going to want to test differently. This is why I think there should be a varied list of titles and the dogs have to obtain X amount before being OK'd to breed by the club.

That's a great point about the AKC tracking, BTW! haha I never thought of the dogs taking visual cues instead of scent! I guess I just liked the description on paper, the way the CsV trailed was air scenting (from what I understand) not following a scent on the ground, as I think the Schutzhund trial works, right? Also, air scenting is how search & rescue dogs work, which is what I was planning on doing with my dogs, so it would be difficult to work both ways.

As far as bitework & Schutzhund are concerned, and my personal direction for breeding, I'm less concerned with the use of working-like GSDs and more with why the wolf was brought in. With the type of work the dogs were doing, they not only needed endurance, they needed independence. I think that, yes, Schutzhund is a wonderful test of ability, but I think the temperament of a CsV doesn't lend itself well to earning SchH titles (at least higher level ones) and that if a breeding plan were based around the temperament that DID excel at wining titles, part of the CsV's original temperament will be lost. Just personal preference, I think.

[soniakanavle]

By 'standard' I mean the original written breed standard from the country of origin. And no, I don't think that should be up to 'interpretation.'
If you read the real original GSD standard then look at what passes in the show ring in the US, you wouldn't even know it was the same breed!
And my POINT is it's obviously not in the best interest of the breed to breed them without healthy hips, without any brains and only to create a certain 'look' that is popular with the judges. I don't think they've 'improved' at all! In the beginning, it didn't matter what the dog looked like, it's temperament and work ethic was more important and I feel like that was a better course for the breed.

As for my GSD, of course I worked with her! And of course she was happy, who are you to judge??!!? She was from half American half German show lines though I never showed her, we did in fact, do herding, agility, obedience, farm work and guarding/patrol work. [Like a real GSD. I'm not saying they have to be in the military or a K9 unit to be a real GSD. I LIKE the farm dog aspect of the breed.]
Sadly she developed hip dysplasia and bone cancer so I couldn't do any real strenuous or competitive work with her but she was a great protector and my best friend and I think a real ambassador for the breed. RIP.
And the poor health is one of my examples of the poor breeding tactics in this country and why when I get my next GSD I'm going to get a Czech bred DDR working line dog which seem a lot truer to the type of GSD I love so dearly and they actually care about the future of this wonderfull breed. [I think y'all can agree, that American popularity after the war ruined the GSD as it should be. ]

And as for lab/goldens etc, I have nothing against the breeds, I just put them out as an example of a more all around 'family friendly' dog if that's what you're looking for. And ACTUALLY, sporting dogs are the group I'm glad is going away from their original purpose and becoming pets because I DETEST hunters!!!

[yukidomari]

"And my POINT is it's obviously not in the best interest of the breed to breed them without healthy hips, without any brains and only to create a certain 'look' that is popular with the judges."

I don't dispute health - health testing is pretty much imperative no matter how you choose to, or not choose to, abide by original standards. And if you want standards, you can see how much original standards have now threatened the Dalmatian. It's just not applicable to apply it across the board. And I disagree that AmGSDs are 'without any brains'. They just have different drives or lack thereof.. again. That is all.


And I never said your GSD was not happy.. and specifically I said working line, but you quantified it yourself by saying she was from American and German show lines - NOT working lines - which is what you kind of implied there should only be.

Actually, also it's not shown that AmGSDs have poorer health, as you claim. It is unsubstantiated, really. When we compare GSDs of ALL lines, all are affected by hip dysplasia and DM, at least. There are plenty of show only lines in Germany, plenty of back yard breeders, and plenty of mills willing to export to the US just like there are in the US.

DDR German dogs are just at the other spectrum of extreme. The German Shepherd Dog was always bred to be a level-headed, well rounded dog, suitable as a family pet as well as work. It was not meant originally to be a dog with extreme drive. People can certainly claim that DDR GSDs are just as bastardized as pet AmGSDs with good cause.


And lastly, thank you for sharing that you detest hunters. Personally, I have admiration for people willing to take the life of an animal and not just simply grab a pack of some meat off a styrofoam plate in a supermarket... and I've been a vegetarian for over 13 years. I have friends who are hunters and their dogs help them indispensably. I'm sorry that you feel that way towards some people who choose not to participate in industrialized animal husbandry or slaughter.

[soniakanavle]

Wow. Okay. I'm not even gonna waste my time on this anymore.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

By 'standard' I mean the original written breed standard from the country of origin. And no, I don't think that should be up to 'interpretation.'

I agree, the main problem is that "second interpretation of standard" often comes because the total "non understanding of what the standard wants", CzW already pass for such problem, its standard is very complet and detailed, but few people and even breeders are able to understand it, so what we can meet are a huge ammount of breeders (and also a huge ammout of juges) able to only judge the head of the dogs having a small idea about the basic of it (like small ears and ambar eyes), but with no idea about how the body should look like, how the dog should move.

Originally Posted by Yukidomari

I am a FIRM believer that a breed that is attractive AND also bred to work, will always split into work-show lines.

When people does not know the standard, they start to select what is more "bautifull" at their eyes and what they think its correct, they will use the excuse that its "his line" or "his way of breeding" or even "his show line" as some people will use the excuse to say "my dog dont need be at standard as its working line", if you look the CzW standard, will see that animals that follow close what the standard says are surely better working animals, a CzW with nice body format according the standard will have more endurance than one with round atipical chest and shorth legs for exemple, but some judges will preffer the short legged heavy animal because its looks "nicer" than the correct one.
The workability and the standard walks togeter, you will see people trying to split it in two for dont accept tat what they're doing is wrong, and its common in all breeds, also called "kennel blindness", its up to the club avoid it and conscientize people and new owners about what is right.

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Vlcaks descended from GSDs that had to earn titles in order to be bred. I am sure that the original Vlcak breeding program relied on similar tests to make sure they were breeding only the best

You see, a club that wants working titles, show titles and a restrict selection of the individual looks nice in the paper, but it can be a trap for the bree itself, principaly for a breed like CzW.
Supose in USA you find a owner wich hve a nice CzW with a very rare line, old animal without nothing, no X rays, no dogshows much less working titles, the owner have no will to make it, but he accept make the X rays without problems, you will not be able to use this dog as it should be used because the dog have no titles and shows, you can end to lost a nice bloodline because of a nonense title.
I think the club should help giving all conditions and informing people about how good is work with the dogs and how importand it could be, but not use it as rule for a stud dog.
We cant forget also about the fact that working titles and show titles can influencie in the people choise of a stud, so you can get a very titled dog with ok health results, but terrible line in health and even appearence, being over used because its a "titled dog", it can turn in a huge problem for the breed.

I think would be very nice the club make a breeding comission, with the will of select the mattings, avoiding the lost of lines or the overuse of a single stud, not only that, but also avoiding dangerous matings that can cause unhealty pups or even matings with no interest at all for the future of the breed.
About the request, I think important are the healty tests, when mostly breeders ( and even very experienced ones) have a huge problems for understand the standard, judge their dogs and mates, will not be a FCI or AKC judge that will be able to say if the dog is or not in the standard.
Not much different with the working tests, that you can simply traine a dog with terrible character to make a show in the training field or with the helpler.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

The workability and the standard walks togeter, you will see people trying to split it in two for dont accept tat what they're doing is wrong, and its common in all breeds, also called "kennel blindness", its up to the club avoid it and conscientize people and new owners about what is right.

I agree with you there. Most optimally, of course, form should always follow function... but then again, in the art of purebred dogs that isn't so clear cut. Form following function in almost all working breeds would probably be best with an open stud book, then, ideally. But I don't know of any breed that is really willing to accept that. And, above that, standards are only written about physical characteristics. Usage of a dog has always been left up to interpretation... original use is a good start, but then again, usage evolves.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Form following function in almost all working breeds would probably be best with an open stud book, then, ideally.

Do you means by open stud book, accept mates with other breeds?

And, above that, standards are only written about physical characteristics. Usage of a dog has always been left up to interpretation... original use is a good start, but then again, usage evolves.

The standars should have the behaviour/temperament description, also as a historical brief, so, the behaviour are not up to the interpretation, maybe the usage can be mistaken, but nothing that a little bit more of study about the breed would not solve.

Originally Posted by FCI standard of the breed

BRIEF HISTORICAL SUMMARY:
In the year 1955 a biological experiment took place in the CSSR of that time, namely, the crossing of a German Shepherd Dog with a Carpathian wolf. The experiment established that the progeny of the mating of male dog to female wolf as well as that of male wolf to female dog, could be reared. The overwhelming majority of the products of these matings possessed the genetic requirements for continuation of breeding. In the year 1965, after the ending of the experiment, a plan for the breeding of this new breed was worked out. This was to combine the usable qualities of the wolf with the favourable qualities of the dog. In the year 1982, the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, through the general committee of the breeder's associations of the CSSR of that time, was recognized as a national breed

BEHAVIOUR-TEMPERAMENT:
Lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions, fearless and courageous. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.

[draggar]

(I had several quotes but decided to just post since many of them would overlap and editing / re-editing would be a real pain!).

Sadly, dogs that were bred to work split into two factions (for the lack of a better term) - the show people and the working people. Sadly, the working dogs usually don't do well in the show ring because they don't look as nice as the show dogs. As far as I know every breed was engineered for a purpose, to do a job, and none of their jobs was to look nice - so why the stress on their physical look? While I agree structure is very important (hips, build, stamina, etc..) these points are quite often overlooked in the AKC show ring and the same goes with temperament. I've seen very few dogs that do well in the working world and the show world.

As for interpretation - yes, there is room for some interpretation but some aspects there isn't. Take GSDs for example, every standard states "Must show confidence". Not can, not may, not should, MUST. In my book, "must" means 100% of the dogs should have that quality. Sadly, to often I see GSDs in the AKC show ring that are skittish, afraid of other dogs, afraid of the judge, the handler, and even trying their hardest to avoid everything when in the ring - where is the confidence in that? If the standard says "MUST show confidence" then why are these dogs being rewarded? If it's a chance of "well, it's the least bad dog in there" - the judges CAN with hold ribbons - I've seen it before.

"Pet" owned GSDs. Yes, the vast majority of dog owners in the USA want a pet but I think most of them have the wrong dog. If you want a dog that is going to be friends with everyone, love the family, and love strangers then don't get a GSD, get a lab (like Dug in the movie Up). If you really wanted a car that had great gas mileage - would you get an SUV? Nope, you'd get a compact or a hybrid. The same with a GSD - it is a WORKING breed. The breed is meant for herding (with protection implied in that job). Unless you wanted a guardian or a partner, why get a GSD? People looking for a pet need to research breeds and decide on what breed to get before getting the dog.

As Luna's mom said, in every litter there will be dogs that won't stand up to the quality of the breed (it is unavoidable) and yes, those should be adopted out as pets, but they should also have spay / neuter clauses in their contracts (where it is legal) so their genes are not put back into the gene pool.

[Gypsy Wolf]

Hmmm, well it seems some of the information out there is wrong, if they were primarily bred for "tracking" according to the recent post, however, regardless of whether their primary function was tracking, I cannot believe that a Border Patrol dog was not expected to grip. A main function of most, if not all, Border Patrol dogs is to grip, so a minimum foundation of bitework is necessary. Why else would the CsV breeding program weed out unsuitable character? Any dog can track if it has a nose.
As to the above posts, yes, I think being a pet is not a bad thing, but in ANY litter there are "pet" puppies, so why breed just for that? Max von Stephanitz must be rolling in his grave at the state of the American GSD. I have been in SchH for 17 years and have yet to see an American bred dog in the sport. I also know of no American dogs that serve in police or military functions. Very sad, as we tout ourselves as producing the "best of the best"...
I agree that there will likely always be a difference between dogs bred for show and those for work, but by requiring both working and conformation titles, we can narrow down that division quite a bit.
Since we still have guidance from the founder of the breed, I feel strongly that we should institute rules to keep the standards of the breed high - so we don't go through the same pitfalls that other breeds before have (did you know that the single "reason" that the American GSDs look and act the way they do is due to CH. Lance of Fran-Jo?) with giving up "drive" for "easy in the house" or "popular stud" pedigree bottlenecking (you see that in West German Highlines with Uran v Wildsteigerland). If someone wants a good "pet" they can get a different breed. I don't want to see the CsV turn into a collie... no offense intended - I actually have a collie.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Hmmm, well it seems some of the information out there is wrong, if they were primarily bred for "tracking" according to the recent post, however, regardless of whether their primary function was tracking, I cannot believe that a Border Patrol dog was not expected to grip. A main function of most, if not all, Border Patrol dogs is to grip, so a minimum foundation of bitework is necessary. Why else would the CsV breeding program weed out unsuitable character? Any dog can track if it has a nose.

Maybe will be not bad, if you read some books about situation in Czechoslovakia in years after year 1948. First was practically no dogs needed (its not true 100%, but simply say), because around the western border was high voltage fence. After them was signal wall, but not so, like imagine many people "on west". Mostly was signal wall hounderts up to kilometers before real border line. On some places was kilometres before realy borders made from state police a false border, because people without maps (owned or drawing detail maps of border region was a heavy crime) think, that are just on german or austrian territory and dont hide self more (easy prey for border police). Border police dont need, like in democratic country, on border people catching and arresting. On western border was 1-3 times (I dont right now not exactly rules, because they was changing in the time) call up to stops and then was normally to set gun and shooting. Specially in the years, when starting the experiment with crossing GDS and wolves, get every soldier, which kill the man on border, special reward. Dog was in this years only secondary tool for stoping. Dog was primary for tracing.

[Gypsy Wolf]

I didn't mean to disparage anyone - I have been training dogs and "in dogs" for 17 years now. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but American breeders are well-known for "watering down" working breeds to make them better pets. I don't think that is necessarily in the best interests of the breed. If you love a Malinois, for instance, you take into consideration it is an aggressive breed by nature - if you don't like that, get something else! Don't ruin the working drive because it is more difficult to live with for the Average Joe. That's what worries me about the Vlcak in the United States.
I love Dobes, GSDs, Belgian Shepherds - and it breaks my heart to see what has happened via American Breeders. What happened to the dog that was supposed to be a natural "manstopper"??? Are the Dobe folks really proud of what they've created? I am using the breed just as an example - no offense intended. But really, if you want to get a Dobe or GSD that can "stop a man" you DON'T look at American-line dogs - you go overseas. Pathetic that our police and military have to go the Europe to find dogs that can work... that's what I DON'T want to happen to the Vlcak.