Forming a breed club in the US

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Are the Dobe folks really proud of what they've created?

Actually, for the most part, yes. You would not believe how much bad press, bad rep, and what not that has threatened the Dobe. Back in the day Dobes were today's Pittie, and you see the same type of movement of responsible APBTs today, too.. breeding for a more even temperament, less reactive, less dog aggressive. Do *I* agree? Not sure where I stand on that, actually.

And actually, if you think about it, all dogs except those few bred expressly for companionship (and even then, a large number of the littles were ratters) all have a job. Just because almost of today's Rough Collies and Retriever types have been relegated to companionship/family dogs only means that their direction as a breed has gone away from work - not that they were always there from the start.

Again, the whole Europe vs. US divide - should always be kept in mind that Europe has every bit as many poorly bred dogs as anywhere else. Has every bit as many 'working kennels' looking to make a buck, and also lots of kennels willing to ship inferior dogs overseas. Good breeders are good breeders, no matter where they are. And a dog born in Germany is not any 'better' solely based on that.. it can all only be attributed to the individual breeders and breed club that stands behind them.

Originally Posted by yukidomari

And actually, if you think about it, all dogs except those few bred expressly for companionship (and even then, a large number of the littles were ratters) all have a job. Just because almost of today's Rough Collies and Retriever types have been relegated to companionship/family dogs only means that their direction as a breed has gone away from work - not that they were always there from the start.

Isn't this the whole point everyone's trying to make? Don't repeat history! These breeds are being brought up as an example of how real, functional, working dogs have been watered down to the point where they're just soft companion animals with different looks for different tastes. There are plenty of breeds out there that we don't need to turn the CsV into "another pretty face." Divisions in a breed are NOT inevitable if we stop it in its tracks! Just because it happens and it's the norm, it does NOT mean it has to be tolerated!!

I just want to clarify that when I said breeding needs to be open to interpretation (regarding rules of a breed club) I meant in more subtle ways of testing a dog's working character, I don't in any way mean that a breeder could go & say, "Eh, I want my dogs to be more calm & easy to manage, to make great pets!" when the dog should not in any way have that sort of temperament. The whole point of purebred dogs should be breed preservation, which means holding to and testing correct temperament. When a breeder strives to develop their line, it's to come as close as possible to their vision of the breed standard, not to bastardize it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's how I feel on the subject.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Vicky

Isn't this the whole point everyone's trying to make? Don't repeat history! These breeds are being brought up as an example of how real, functional, working dogs have been watered down to the point where they're just soft companion animals with different looks for different tastes. There are plenty of breeds out there that we don't need to turn the CsV into "another pretty face." Divisions in a breed are NOT inevitable if we stop it in its tracks! Just because it happens and it's the norm, it does NOT mean it has to be tolerated!!

I'll agree to disagree then. My pet Dobe is not the same as my pet Minpin, who simply 'looks different' than one another. Surely, they are not working dogs nor are they from working lines, but they have characters though not working drive of their forebears.

I am NOT advocating turning the CSV into a soft companion breed.. Just merely musing.

[GalomyOak]

My opinion, for what it's worth...

I absolutely want to see this breed move forward with working goals in mind. But as Nebulosa pointed out, we are not in a place - as a breed - in Europe, and certainly not in the US, to discredit dogs if they don't have titles. The breed doesn't have enough genetic diversity to withstand that kind of pressure on selection at this point. I think it is a very noble goal for the breed/club to reach for one day - and of course there should be controls on breeding with dogs with good health, and no disqualifying features - especially in structure and temperament. I think a breeding commission is an excellent idea.

A few misconceptions about AKC tracking. First off, tracking (ground) and trailing (air) are totally different scent theories - trailing is used in SAR, and typically has a quicker and more efficient accuracy. Tracking trials are completely blind - the flags are only used in training. It's an excellent sport, my CSVs have very deep noses and deviate from the track very little in comparison to many of the other dogs out there (Goldens, GSD, Weimeraner). Don't think it should be used as a sole qualifier of a breedable dog...

Won't get into American v. Europe. I know good and bad breeders of all mentioned breeds in both places. I have an American bred GSD from heavy Swiss and German lines, with Lord vom Gleisd... featured recently. Love her to death, makes me crazy to work with her.

I am glad these discussions are happening - even if they are uncomfortable. It's important! I think it's also important to keep in mind that ALL of our experiences in the US with the breed are limited - I know my perceptions certainly changed after my visit to Europe last spring where I met many dogs and breeders - important to remember there is still quite a bit of variation within the breed, not everyone's experiences will be the same.

Marcy

[soniakanavle]

Yukidomari, I think maybe you should look into getting a different breed, it doesn't sound like what you're looking for is a CsV.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

Yukidomari, I think maybe you should look into getting a different breed, it doesn't sound like what you're looking for is a CsV.

Thanks for your opinion, Soniakanavle.

[soniakanavle]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Thanks for your opinion, Soniakanavle.

Hahaha and thanks for the sarcasm.
My point is, the only reason you've mentioned that you want this breed for is because you 'go hiking a lot.' Um.. ANY breed can hike a lot.
Also you seem to travel a lot by plane, [Japan and back] the one time I flew my CsV [from Montana to California] he had extreme panic attacks the entire flight and it took me a good hour to calm him down in the airport after and the flight crew warned me to never fly with him again, so for his sake I am restricted to driving when I want to travel.
Also I think most CsV [not all I know but it's a thought to consider] have a high prey drive/will chase small animals. Have you thought about what would happen if yours didn't fit in with your Min Pin and other little dog??

See, I'm not just trying to be mean, I just assumed you joined this forum to take real advice from real CsV owners since we have actual experience with the breed and I think it's our duty to warn/weed out potential buyers that might not know what they're getting into. THAT'S my opinion.
A CsV is a lifelong commitment and I waited/researched 6+ years from first wanting one to actually having my dreams come true.
I'm sure there are plenty of dogs in this country, shelter dogs, mutts etc that would love to take a hike with you.

[GalomyOak]

Sonia, Jing....

I have had the opportunity to work with both of you in different facets. I have been communicating with Jing for a couple of years now - she has been exploring every crevice of the breed one can in living over here. I had the opportunity to meet her and her friends/family in the past month when they drove down for the day to meet the pack. I also had the opportunity to meet her dogs - and was quite impressed by the level of care and training that was apparent. I believe Jing is stepping into the idea of ownership very carefully, with excellent goals in mind, and an objective frame of mind...and would have no problem, as a breeder, offering her a puppy...

Sonia, you are one of our originals here...a dedicated owner who has a lot to offer to our collective knowledge of the breed in the US. I was really excited when you offered to serve as our Pacific contact! I have not had the opportunity to meet you - but look forward to meeting both you and Flint very soon!

It's cool to have different ideas, and points of view - that's what makes an organization strong. I think things can easily be misinterpreted on the internet too...I really hope we can bury hatchets, put aside prejudgments of one another, and keep things cool - finally the club is building momentum and cohesiveness, which is, above all, what we need right now. Would really hate to lose either of you in this venture!!!

Marcy

[yukidomari]

Never mind! We will try to play nice.

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

It's cool to have different ideas, and points of view - that's what makes an organization strong.

I agree with this 100%! I think it's when it gets to the point where people are too afraid (or feel it's too hopeless) to go against the status quo that you start to get problems where you no longer see different options anymore. I think that's why a lot of breed clubs have the problems they do where they're not willing to admit they have issues, because they resent so much that they've been doing things for so long that they can't fathom that they possibly have gone off course. Even if you don't agree with something, just the act of discussion while you hash things out can make you at least see things you hadn't before and make adaptations accordingly. If you have to "justify" your position on something (the right way, mind you, buy making an actual persuasive argument) it automatically makes you reevaluate your position every time, making it stronger, or possibly making you see where you need to change. It's as good a rule for life is it is with breed clubs.

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

A few misconceptions about AKC tracking. First off, tracking (ground) and trailing (air) are totally different scent theories - trailing is used in SAR, and typically has a quicker and more efficient accuracy. Tracking trials are completely blind - the flags are only used in training. It's an excellent sport, my CSVs have very deep noses and deviate from the track very little in comparison to many of the other dogs out there (Goldens, GSD, Weimeraner). Don't think it should be used as a sole qualifier of a breedable dog...

I'm glad you posted this! I was under the impression that AKC tracking WAS more like trailing because the rules weren't as strict about the dog keeping its nose to the ground. I also don't think ANY of the sports we've been talking about should be used as a sole qualifier of breedable stock. There are obviously going to be a lot of things at play regarding testing dogs, and I feel that if we are going to at the very least (as a breed club) recommend that the dogs obtain titles, I think it should be confirmation, and "something else" that would be picked off of a list. For me, this is more to prove that the breeder is dedicated to doing the best possible for the breed less than it is about the dog's actual ability.

This brings me to my next thought... While I like the idea of a breeding commission, I wonder if the club should just be more strict as to who it actually recognizes as breeders? Maybe there can be an application process stricter than just regular membership in the club for people to be on an "approved breeder" list or something? Then there could be something on there about confirmation and evaluating stock for correct structure for endurance and correct temperament. This way, titles could be encouraged, but the ultimate discretion would still be left up to the breeder to decide if an untitled dog would still work well in the program. Or maybe something about at least one of the dogs needing titles? Or a combination of at least one working/sport title and one confirmation title between the two of them?

Mind you, I have zero experience about how breed clubs typically work, so I have no idea how feasible any of this is, just throwing out ideas.

[Gypsy Wolf]

OK, so my question to the American Dobie, GSD, etc. folks is this: If they truly love the breed, why did they change it so it no longer behaves as it was designed to? Just because they liked it's looks and not it's character? In that case, are they really stewards of the breed with it's best interests at heart?
Removing aggression/sharpness from a breed designed to be a "man-stopper" just because of "bad press"? THAT'S THE BREED. If you can't handle the temperament, get another breed - don't turn it into dishwater!
If you go to Jimmy Moses' Kaleef GSD site, he guarantees excellent "show" dogs... GSDs were designed to be WORKING DOGS. Turning them into a pretty sidegait with no working ability is reprehensible! How dare they say they "love the breed"?