czw puppy

[Rona]

To Tassle: I find your comments very logical

I think with CSV it's worth trying various methods, because the dogs vary from each other a lot. What works with one, does not necessarily work woth another. That's why following blindly somebody else's advice (even the best!) may not be always the best idea.

For bringing up a vlcak, I wouldn't even use the word "training" but rather "devloping communication patterns". Any methods (even the most crazy ones) are OK as long as they're efficient and do not destroy the owner's relationship with the animal.

I remember at some point my pup was biting me (and other members of the family) when coming back from walks. She used to jump on our sleeves and tear them, sometims in the middle of the street! I interperted her behaviour as calling "I don't want to go home yet! I want to go on playing with my friends".
I understood her messgage, but had to inform her that such behaviour would not be accepted. I took a leash with a steel thread inside (for her safety), and the moment she started biting, I tied her to the nearest solid item (a pole, a bench, once even a church door ) and walked on about 10-20 meters without her, while she could see me all the time. Then I stopped and watched her for a couple of minutes, returned, untied and we went on together. When she was walking nicely - I was giving her treats when started biting again- I repeated the whole process. Sometimes it took us an hour instead of 10 minutes to get back home, but in the end it worked - she understood what I wanted her to understand.

I'm not saying this method would work with every vlcak, but that in most cases it's possible to find a way to pass the information to the dog efficiently. It's just the matter of imagination and non-conventional "tailored" thinking based on the observation of a particluar dog.

It's true that separation works, but for the CSV pup it's one of the most severe punishment, so it has to be used with great caution, as it might impede the relationship. We used it only for the "worst crimes" and only for short periods of time (from 3-5 minutes to half an hrs when she was older). Besides the difficulty with separation is that the dogs must never be let out when howling (it would be a reward for howling )

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by Rona

To Tassle: I find your comments very logical

I think with CSV it's worth trying various methods, because the dogs vary from each other a lot. What works with one, does not necessarily work woth another. That's why following blindly somebody else's advice (even the best!) may not be always the best idea.

For bringing up a vlcak, I wouldn't even use the word "training" but rather "devloping communication patterns". Any methods (even the most crazy ones) are OK as long as they're efficient and do not destroy the owner's relationship with the animal.

I remember at some point my pup was biting me (and other members of the family) when coming back from walks. She used to jump on our sleeves and tear them, sometims in the middle of the street! I interperted her behaviour as calling "I don't want to go home yet! I want to go on playing with my friends".
I understood her messgage, but had to inform her that such behaviour would not be accepted. I took a leash with a steel thread inside (for her safety), and the moment she started biting, I tied her to the nearest solid item (a pole, a bench, once even a church door ) and walked on about 10-20 meters without her, while she could see me all the time. Then I stopped and watched her for a couple of minutes, returned, untied and we went on together. When she was walking nicely - I was giving her treats when started biting again- I repeated the whole process. Sometimes it took us an hour instead of 10 minutes to get back home, but in the end it worked - she understood what I wanted her to understand.

I'm not saying this method would work with every vlcak, but that in most cases it's possible to find a way to pass the information to the dog efficiently. It's just the matter of imagination and non-conventional "tailored" thinking based on the observation of a particluar dog.

It's true that separation works, but for the CSV pup it's one of the most severe punishment, so it has to be used with great caution, as it might impede the relationship. We used it only for the "worst crimes" and only for short periods of time (from 3-5 minutes to half an hrs when she was older). Besides the difficulty with separation is that the dogs must never be let out when howling (it would be a reward for howling )

Very good post.

I always say to Puppy owners Separation is the worst form of Punishment you can give. (to which they often look at me as if I am mad!) Dogs are social animals, and to deprive them of that, even for a short time can be very distressing for them.

Rush - One main reason I try and steer clear of the 'Alpha roll' is due to the puppy learning to fight back. I never want to teach my puppy to get into a battle of physical force because I know (as they get older) if they wanted to, they would win.

I have sadly known a few dogs who have been pts after the owners tried these methods, the dogs went into 'freeze' mode and the owners, thinking the dogs had 'calmed' allowed the dog up, only to be severely bitten.

[yukidomari]

In my personal observation of "alpha rolls", only puppies are sometimes forcibly "rolled" by siblings and perhaps the mother and nobody is worse off.

When adults, when I observe rolls, often times it is without physical force - in this case I mean that the dog already recognizes the status of some other dog or some other human. For example, my 3 year old female will roll herself when my 13 year old male is upset with her, without him touching her at all. And when my boyfriend is very upset with the dogs sometimes, they will roll over by themselves.. But we have never rolled the dogs as a method of punishment or to teach them anything.. they do this out of instinct.

However, on the other hand when I see forcible rolls, like sometimes in the dog park between stranger dogs, oftentimes fights will break out.

Because as Tassle said, I don't wish to get into a physical fight with my dogs, I avoid rolling them because I feel that there are alternative, non-physical methods of training for the same goal.

If I wanted to simulate some idea of "how a dog pack works", then I accept that when a dog is forcibly rolled, it can respond by biting or fighting back, as that is what I observe between dogs.

That's just my opinion.

[Rush]

i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult too risky

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Rush

i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult too risky

Then what's the point in asking questions if you know the best answers? It's your pup and you can raise it as you wish.

[Rush]

Im using forced methods at minimum and im not experienced, I follow advices(specially from breeder-logical if i got him there) and must say as already 2 times before that he is really gettin better, his biting has reduced even more now, he doesnt even attack anymore my..hm..the word..shoes for in house lets say which has some things like hairs which he loved to bite..His crying has reduced, also he stopped crying in car(unless he wants to go to toilet) and when i put him in trunk he sits and waits without need to say it anymore instead of trying to escape and jump out.. And more things.. So i think im not doing it bad but also i cant say i dont do mistakes, we learn all the time right? Tassle one question-Did you say you hide things that pup shouldnt chew and when you forbid it? Becouse to me that seems he wouldnt understand it, and if you mistakenly leave something in reach it would go for it..Hope you said it, im currently typing on my phone cant see as good as on computer.. So have a nice day everyone

[Rush]

Im asking to see what others think and to see if i do right or wrong.. And because im unexperienced.. And also more methods more i can try and see what works best and also see if you guys think that methods are good or possibly risky as you ppl were replaying for roll.. And being told something doesnt mean its still best, so more research and opinions is easier to see what is true and working for most ppl and what not..

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by Rush

Im asking to see what others think and to see if i do right or wrong.. And because im unexperienced.. And also more methods more i can try and see what works best and also see if you guys think that methods are good or possibly risky as you ppl were replaying for roll.. And being told something doesnt mean its still best, so more research and opinions is easier to see what is true and working for most ppl and what not..

In Which case I feel your approach is wrong. Getting into confrontational situations with dogs is not good IME.

However - I also feel it can be very dangerous to seek advice from too many different avenues. By trying out too many methods - you are liable to confuse your pup and yourself. Choose an approach and stick with it.

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Rush

i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult too risky

their should not be any fights ! let alone 'winning' that is a very sad attitude to have imo.

you need to bond,teach and guide ..not alpha roll and fight

imo your pup will loose his trust in you...and trust is everything imo.

[Rush]

So how would pup know thats wrong when he would attack as i wrote last time if i just walk away? And it didnt happen again..he was trying in some cases but also stopped quickly..And that was ment for 'fight'..Its breeders opinion i should finish, win always so he will understand and stop trying with time.. Otherwise it could happen when he will be grown up..I dont want to stay without my hand But i repeat..This are rare cases and rarly needed to do something about it..What i use mostly everyday is positive reinforcement or no! for unallowed and when no is ignored i redirect him/his attention.. Tassle, can you say in other words what u ment with contraversal... ? Thanks

[Rush]

confrontional sorry